An Important Message from Billy Graham to non-christians

[dlamberth]

As you suggested previously,[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] people go to hell on their own, yet they don't go to heaven on their own. [/FONT]

The way I see it...that's the basis of a dysfunctional relationship which can be and sometimes is played out as it reaches to family and friends who do not hold to the correct One True Way beliefs.

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[FireDragon76]

The saints merit heaven by grace freely given, that is the Catholic position. Justice isn't contradicted by grace.

Most Protestants would agree that heaven is not earned, but that doesn't mean that people who go to hell do not choose to do so. They are left to their own natural inclinations.

I think many people are just engaged in strawman attacks against what they don't want to understand or what they reject. There's nothing really unfair about the Protestant view of salvation, since none deserve eternal life.

 

[LoAmmi]

I think many people are just engaged in strawman attacks against what they don't want to understand or what they reject. There's nothing really unfair about the Protestant view of salvation, since none deserve eternal life.

That just shows it was an unjust system setup from the beginning though. If I'm in charge of letting people in somewhere, and I make the standard that a person demonstrates they can fly under their own power I have setup an unfair system because nobody can meet the standards.

If I then say that if you express your undying love for my me, because I can fly under my own power, though I can't really demonstrate if I can or not, and because of your love for me you get in, that really isn't justice or grace.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not unfair at all. It is God's free choice and he is not obligated at all (nobody would say it is unfair that a person gives something freely to one person, and not to another, if there is no obligation to do so). Protestants do not believe God gives people heaven because they demonstrate a capability to do something. In fact traditional Protestantism asserts that we are unable to do anything in our own power that is meritorious of eternal reward.

 

[LoAmmi]

It's not unfair at all. It is God's free choice and he is not obligated at all (nobody would say it is unfair that a person gives something freely to one person, and not to another, if there is no obligation to do so). Protestants do not believe God gives people heaven because they demonstrate a capability to do something. In fact traditional Protestantism asserts that we are unable to do anything in our own power that is meritorious of eternal reward.

Who setup the system that everybody is bound to Hell? Who setup Hell? Who had an opportunity to not have Hell and have something else like a Purgatory setup for everybody?

 

[Rajni]

It's not unfair at all. It is God's free choice and he is not obligated at all (nobody would say it is unfair that a person gives something freely to one person, and not to another, if there is no obligation to do so). Protestants do not believe God gives people heaven because they demonstrate a capability to do something. In fact traditional Protestantism asserts that we are unable to do anything in our own power that is meritorious of eternal reward.

Well, see, that's just it.

If we are unable to do anything within our own power to gain heaven, then how can it be said that we are actively choosing hell, heaven's opposite? There's a difference between being outright unable to accomplish something and merely choosing not to accomplish it.

In other words, if one destination is merited, then, logically, the other must be merited. Likewise, if one destination is earned, then, logically, the other must be earned.

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[bhsmte]

Well, see, that's just it.

If we are unable to do anything within our own power to gain heaven, then how can it be said that we are actively choosing hell, heaven's opposite? There's a difference between being outright unable to accomplish something and merely choosing not to accomplish it.

In other words, if one destination is merited, then, logically, the other must be merited. Likewise, if one destination is earned, then, logically, the other must be earned.

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Christianity and logic, have never been good bedfellows.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

They go to Hell on their own accord.

Haven't we talked about this already?
No, they do not. It's a pleasant rationalization on the part of Christians who cannot face up to the fact that the god they believed in is portrayed in a very uncomfortable, morally questionable manner.

If you cannot wrap your head around this: are you afraid of going to Allah's hell? Or of being trapped in Hades because you offended Thor?
See, it's the same for Non-Christians.
Even if they (or you) are wrong, they (or you) do not *choose* whatever relentless and cruel afterlife is on the menu, then. You genuinely believe that these other deities do not exist, and that you worship the only true deity. And it would not be your decision to go to a hellish afterlife - it would be the vengeful god's.

 

[FireDragon76]

This only works if you assume that our beliefs must have no areas of mystery or the unexplained. I, as a Christian, do not pretend to understand all things perfectly. But we do not believe that God sends people to Hell against their will. People choose that. This does not contradict the belief that heaven is a gift.

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, but the idea that it is unfair for any of us to be punished for our sin that we ourselves choose trivializes the evils in the world.

 

[awitch]

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven.

So, in your opinion, it's just deeds that determine a person's fate?
Non-violent, non-selfish, non-Christian people do not go to hell?

 

[dlamberth]

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, ...

Basically, your talking about the Fall. Who made that up? I think that we are rising and that we are not fallen. Believing that they are fallen just keeps everyone in their place. I think we need to pull out of that kind of thinking and re-frame who we actually are as human beings...that we are a people rising, and not a fallen people. The evolution of human beings is to push up or to rise to the next level of consciousness.

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[gord44]

Basically, your talking about the Fall. Who made that up? I think that we are rising and that we are not fallen. Believing that they are fallen just keeps everyone in their place. I think we need to pull out of that kind of thinking and re-frame who we actually are as human beings...that we are a people rising, and not a fallen people. The evolution of human beings is to push up or to rise to the next level of consciousness.

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Which is one of the problems I had with Christianity. It was always 'the best is yet to come'. Always how wretched and fallen we were, but we will be redeemed one day and all that (after we died). Why wait? Why not find truth right now instead of waiting?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, but the idea that it is unfair for any of us to be punished for our sin that we ourselves choose trivializes the evils in the world.

Even the wickedest deed you could ever imagine is nothing compared to the sheer horror of a concept like eternal torment.
To keep a sentient, sapient being in such a state for all time is an abomination in and of itself, turning the professed goodness of whoever perpetuates such a penalty into a sham.

What I see in the newspaper are the follies of unenlightened beings, stumbling in the dark and perpetuating misery while falsely believing that they are pursuing happiness. That's not to say there is no such thing as genuine malice, but I see this as a result of error, a failure to think correctly about one's actions and their consequences. We are responsible for our actions, but none of those equate to "choosing hell", except perhaps in a mostly metaphorical sense. Faced with the reality of such a genuinely evil afterlife, not a single being would say: "Yep, that is where I want to go."
To pretend that this is what happens means that you are aware of the sheer evil of the concept, yet shy away from attributing its atrocity to the One God you believe to be the epitome of everything that's right and true.

 

[Rajni]

This only works if you assume that our beliefs must have no areas of mystery or the unexplained. I, as a Christian, do not pretend to understand all things perfectly. But we do not believe that God sends people to Hell against their will. People choose that. This does not contradict the belief that heaven is a gift.

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, but the idea that it is unfair for any of us to be punished for our sin that we ourselves choose trivializes the evils in the world.

Frankly, if there's any hell, it's located right between one's own two ears. It's a state of mind rather than a place.

I would much rather be guilty of trivializing 'evil' than trivializing an almighty and all-knowing God. Besides, it's natural that the bigger God gets in one's eyes, the smaller 'evil' appears.

As for God turning out sin-saturated products: If there's a flaw in a product, it isn't the responsibility of the product, but the responsibility of the manufacturer. The problem with the sin-obsessed religious culture is that it operates under the assumption that God can't turn out a worthwhile product, or that He brought about unintended consequences He couldn't foresee occurring during His creative process. Since when does an all-knowing, all-powerful entity not know and/or not have control over what He's bringing about even prior to bringing it about?

PS: I avoid the newspaper/news-media when I can help it. It relies on focusing on the negatives of humanity in order to remain in business, and it would be naive of me to think that each and every report they crank out is even true to begin with, just because I read it in the paper or saw it on the news. Just sayin'.


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[Deacon Don]

Who said anything about doing works to be saved?...

You did. You brought up works, i.e. keeping the commandments.

I follow the commandments given to my people from HaShem since
Sinai as best I can.

Why is He going to send me to Hell?

God is offering you a way to go to Heaven through Jesus the
Messiah. It's up to you to accept it or not.

 

[JGG]

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, but the idea that it is unfair for any of us to be punished for our sin that we ourselves choose trivializes the evils in the world.

I do not understand then, how your God can be just. If you yourself choose hell, and deserve hell, but God does not send you to hell because of "Grace" then God is not just. Someone shared this video awhile ago, and I'll share it with you:

The Good-O-Meter - Inspirational Videos

As the video demonstrates, justice is not a factor: The guy who sinned the most gets a past, while those who actively worked to live a good life were ushered off to hell. Those who receive "Grace" are simply buddies with the Judge's son, and get preferential treatment. This is an affront to our concept of justice.

 

[Deacon Don]

This only works if you assume that our beliefs must have no areas of
mystery or the unexplained. I, as a Christian, do not pretend to
understand all things perfectly. But we do not believe that God sends
people to Hell against their will. People choose that. This does not
contradict the belief that heaven is a gift.

Well stated.

All of us, by nature, choose hell every day: open a newspaper and
look at the greed in the world, at the violence, at the self-
centeredness, and we all fall short of loving God and loving our
neighbor. Therefore, we do not deserve heaven. God shows mercy
on whom he will show mercy, but the idea that it is unfair for any
of us to be punished for our sin that we ourselves choose trivializes
the evils in the world.

^This!^

And those whom God shows mercy to are those who are in Christ
Jesus.

I can't help but notice how little those who are anti-Christian know
about Christianity. They try to make logical assumptions but use
their own knowledge or experiences. They also use Logic 101, which
is taught in college:
1. A bird flies.
2. Birds have feathers.
3. Birds fly because they have feathers.

Some try to learn why they believe as they do while others simply
make things up or only go to anti-Christian hate sites for their
information, which, by the way, isn't logical.

 

[LoAmmi]

You did. You brought up works, i.e. keeping the commandments.

You brought up saved. I didn't say I did anything to be "saved". It would be like you jumping to the conclusion that I keep the commandments to get 1 million dollars. I certainly didn't say that, you are imposing.

God is offering you a way to go to Heaven through Jesus the
Messiah. It's up to you to accept it or not.

I looked into the whole thing. If Jesus is the Messiah, HaShem tricked us Jews into believing the wrong things. HaShem is not Loki.

And with that it's time for me to go for Shabbat. See you guys on Sunday!

 

[awitch]

God is offering you a way to go to Heaven through Jesus the Messiah. It's up to you to accept it or not.

Then quite clearly, one does NOT actively choose hell. One chooses which deity to embrace and hell is the punishment for choosing the wrong one.

 

[Deacon Don]

You brought up saved. I didn't say I did anything to be "saved". It
would be like you jumping to the conclusion that I keep the
commandments to get 1 million dollars. I certainly didn't say that, you
are imposing.

Not true. Anything other than the saving Grace through Jesus is
works oriented. Works, i.e. being good, keeping commandments,
going to synagogue/church, etc...

I looked into the whole thing. If Jesus is the Messiah, HaShem tricked
us Jews into believing the wrong things. HaShem is not Loki.

And with that it's time for me to go for Shabbat. See you guys on
Sunday!

No, the HaShem didn't trick you. And as far a Loki is concerned, I'm a
Thor fan (Lee & Kirby). I really dig your use of Loki.

But seriously, Jesus has been rejected by many Jews (Isa 53:3)