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An experiment with Bing chatbot.

sjastro

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Your link is an example of selective incredulity.
If 600,000 men mentioned in Exodus is incredulous then why not Moses talking to a burning bush or parting the Red Sea?
Taking it to its logical conclusion Exodus becomes a metaphorical not a literal work.

With regards to your personal farm experiences you could make the same type of arguments to claim the consequences of the Black Death should never had occurred as labour shortages could have been avoided.
The facts are labour shortages did occur and their consequences, famine and social upheaval were unavoidable and there is no reason to suggest that a literal interpretation of Exodus would not lead to the same outcome.
 
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sjastro

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I asked Bing the same question as per @essentialsaltes post regarding the galaxy M74.

Score Bing 1 ChatGPT 0.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I asked Bing the same question as per @essentialsaltes post regarding the galaxy M74.


Score Bing 1 ChatGPT 0.

Bing may have job at AiG as their pet astronomer -- can recognize a spiral properly, will quote fundamentalist/literalist "Biblical history". I wonder if it could pass the Qual.
 
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Halbhh

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Your link is an example of selective incredulity.
No it isn't (and I've trained for many years to be more objective in several ways -- I can dump a favorite theory I have in 1 minute, for something new)

If you merely read it neutrally, without preconception bias, it will help.

The article pointed out to me some things I'd never even noticed after reading these books 3 and 4 times already.

Try this: pretend you don't know (or another way: just assume you don't necessarily know every detail, so that while you might know 4 things (you don't have to think you don't), there might actually be 8 or even 11 things, some entirely new...etc.) and then read it trying to learn anything new. I learned to do that way back as a teen, as a method.

Try.
 
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Halbhh

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What article? That bible answers thing?

No, that doesn't even have the word "Semite" in it. You must be referring to the other article that has in its title that it's about Semites in Egypt, the secular article.

To which you were saying (what everyone already knows here probably) that not all Semites are Israelites (but no one had claimed all Semites were Israelites....).

As for some of the other claims tossed out: Semite /= Israelite.

I offered you 2 articles in 2 posts, but only the secular article includes "Semites"....

It's about Israelites in Egypt mostly, and is just above in post #48, and you could always click that link and have a look, because it's probably only 4-6 minutes of interesting reading. (hint: read past the first few paragraphs, really read the entirety...)

(if a person is interested in Israelites and Egypt, etc. -- but why even comment at all if the topic is of no interest?....)
 
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sjastro

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What I see objectively is how you are trying to conflate science with apologetics.

As I mentioned in an earlier post if Exodus is assumed to be factual it forms part of ancient Egyptian history.
By looking at Exodus from this perspective one needs to deal with the cold hard evidence obtained through archaeology and not through the apologetics side of the Bible on which your link is based on.
Exodus states as a historical account that 600,000 men fled Egypt period.
By bringing apologetics into the argument and stating Exodus doesn’t literally mean 600,000 for the various reasons given in your link is to portray Exodus as an unreliable historical source.

As demonstrated in this and in other threads Exodus fails the acid test as being a source of ancient Egyptian history as there is no archaeological evidence both direct and indirect to support it.
 
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Halbhh

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Ah, you've not read my posts fully.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh, post #48 had a link. I just saw one line of text and an oversized image, so I just scrolled past the link without seeing it.

About the link: Your link to an isreali newspaper went blank the moment I opened it just now, so it was of no use to me.
 
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Halbhh

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Oh, post #48 had a link. I just saw one line of text and an oversized image, so I just scrolled past the link without seeing it.

About the link: Your link to an isreali newspaper went blank the moment I opened it just now, so it was of no use to me.
Ah. I'll try another way to link it. That's from Haaretz, which seems on just the basis of maybe 20 articles I've read there over years sorta like the NYTimes averaged with the New Yorker a bit, roughly, with some lengthy and more in depth pieces. This article was pretty good I thought. This is a little different way to link, so maybe that will help, not sure.

Were Hebrews Ever Slaves in Ancient Egypt? Yes

(if that doesn't work you could try just looking up that article title on Haaretz with a search engine, and get to it from that link)
 
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Hans Blaster

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It was my browser that wouldn't load the page correctly. I switched to a different one. (Lousy 21st century web technology.)

Took a look at the article. A lot of the usual overlap without specifics in the first half (Semites, Hyksos, mud brick slaves, Egyptian conquest of Canaan, etc.) then about halfway in a direct reference:

"The papyrus Anastasi VI from around 3200 years ago describes how the Egyptian authorities allowed a group of Semitic nomads from Edom who worshiped Yahweh to pass the border-fortress in the region of Tjeku (Wadi Tumilat) and proceed with their livestock to the lakes of Pithom."

A search for that papyrus found a scholarly article from the 50s with a competing view at the top of the search. No mention of Yahweh (that I saw), just nomads from "red lands" or perhaps desert.

The Hareetz article follows immediately with:

"Shortly afterwards, the Israelites enter world history with the Merenptah stele, which bears the first mention of an entity called Israel in Canaan. It is robustly dated at is 1210 BCE, i.e., as of writing, 3226 years ago."

Working that connection hard (despite not actually mentioning Canaan, or Israel in the papyrus, depending on interpretation)

There are some similarities to generic descriptions in Exodus and of life in ancient Egypt and the one concrete example tying the two together and that example is readily questioned by specialists. (Not universally rejected, mind you.)

I also have no idea what the ideologies involved in the writing or publishing of the article are. The author is supposed to be an underwater archeologist, but I am having a hard time finding articles by him.
 
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Halbhh

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At first while initially reading, I supposed the writer would be simply the science section writer (and Haaretz is leading newspaper, sorta like NYTimes or such) -- but I see along with the list of articles (many interesting things about archeology), that's actually his training/field:

"Philippe Bohstrom is an archaeologist, covering archaeology for news outlets and journals in America, Europe and Asia. Bohstrom holds a master's degree in Classical Archaeology from Gothenburg University and a master´s degree in Near Eastern Archaeology and History from Tel Aviv University."

Regarding whether any Israelites were ever slaves in Egypt, while it seems very plausible it's not clearly proven that I so far found (or that's been found in well known archeology so far, to be more exact, (we don't imagine all archeology is over, but that new things will be found in future times of course).

Talking more generally about Egypt, it was a kingdom, of course, and slavery was very commonplace at that time (and has been in the world in general until more recent times).

E.g.: It does seem pretty clear Egypt used a lot of slave labor (or the equivalent):

Did children build the ancient Egyptian city of Amarna?​


New evidence from Akhenaten’s capital suggests that a ‘disposable’ workforce of children and teenagers provided much of the labour for the city’s construction


I noticed that they could only speculate where these young people came from, but the disposal suggests they are non native in that native children would more likely (I think) to be buried with tokens, symbols, ritual burials or such as a way to help the Egyptian population feel better about their kids dying, etc. -- in a way consistent with how native children are buried in all other nations, everywhere on Earth pretty much...

So, those are very likely foreign slaves., etc.

But I didn't yet see evidence that simply makes everything clear about Israel's path, and well, really, it would surprise me if much of that was found past just a very partial amount of things that are a scant record.

Consider a group that was enslaved, and then later is a marginal group that was on the move trying to find a home, etc...

We'd expect evidence to be scarce until after they finally settled.... Here's why:

It's that disposable slaves don't get a lot of honor/detailed genealogy, etc. -- so, logically, it would not be in keeping to find extensive proof of who the slaves were unless detailed records of where the slaves came from were kept.

So, before the time that Israel was a settled people in Canaan, settled finally in one place, was finally beginning to leave the easy to find records of extensive and lasting settlement life of a large population in one spot, the kind of evidence that easily lasts for millennia....why expect to see evidence about them?...

In other words, it would not make archeological sense to expect much evidence of Israel before its an well established permanent nation/set of cities.

Unless you can figure out why we should find evidence of a marginal group on the move trying to settle? I can't see why anyone would expect evidence of that to last 3,000+ years, but rather old remains in the desert would be hard to attribute to a specific group, but just be 'Semitic' or such, only a remains from that vague, large diverse grouping of the peoples of the larger region (now very many diverse nations).

(at this point, we've digressed enough from chatGPT! lol....if we continue further on this, it ought to be thread on this topic instead)
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yeah, I got that from reading his bios before posting about him. I put him in to Google scholar (my first time using it, so I might have messed it up) and couldn't find anything. Some bios suggested he does some underwater work in archeology in addition to his writing.

Unfortunately, "plausible" is as far as you can get at this point.

I looked at this article to see who might be implying it was related to Israel, and it turns out it is only you (by posting it in this thread).


There is evidence of them forming a state in Canaan, in the Judean hill country in the early Iron Age.


The professional archeologists would disagree with you here. The archeology of the Nile Delta does not support a population of 2M leaving in short order. The presence of Semites, or even Yahwehites doesn't alter that. The archeology of the Sinai doesn't support a 2M x 40 years either. Perhaps each of those 1/10 or less could be "hidden" in unidentified places and the exodus for a few months, not decades, but the Exodus text version is completely unsupportable.

I've heard lots of plausible explanations for the Exodus/Joshua stories, but none that can support the 2M leaving Egypt, spending 40 years in the Sinai (as I understand it "40" is ancient Hebrew for "a bazillion" take that as you will), and then conquering Canaan swiftly.

(at this point, we've digressed enough from chatGPT! lol....if we continue further on this, it ought to be thread on this topic instead)
Diverging from the topic of the OP is the "raisin debtor" of CF. We've also covered the exodus in many threads before
 
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sjastro

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Ah, you've not read my posts fully.
Why would I have responded to your posts if I have not read them fully?
Are you aware there are excerpts in the Old Testament where the narrative is mixed with historical events that have been confirmed by archaeological evidence?

Earlier in this thread Bing made one of its few accurate comments.
In Chronicles 12:2-4
The Egyptian account of the military campaign is found on the Bubastite Portal at Karnak Egypt.


This is an example of how history is attested by archaeology.
How does the Exodus compare; it not attested and the only conclusion one can reach is Exodus is purely a story without any historical content.

Incidentally keeping to the theme of AI, AI is now used to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics.

 
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sjastro

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Expanding on Bing's answer to question (2) in post #1 where it identified the Schwarzschild metric as a solution to Einstein's field equations, I found Bing can provide deep responses provided you knew the answers to the questions you asked which is not terribly helpful as an educational tool.

Here is the exchange.
Show me the Schwarzschild metric is a solution for Einstein's field equations.
This is an unsatisfactory answer.
Do you know what a Christoffel symbol is?

Good so what does it mean when the Christoffel symbols are zero?

We are getting there.
So what are the non zero Christoffel symbols for the Schwarzschild metric?

Well done Bingy!
Do you understand the condition for the Schwarzschild metric being a solution to Einstein’s field equations requires the existence of non vanishing Christoffel symbols?

You are a legend.

Thank you for your kind words! I'm here to help you with any questions you may have. Is there anything else you would like to know?
Of course I was being sarcastic about Bing being a legend.
 
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Halbhh

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The archeology of the Nile Delta does not support a population of 2M leaving in short order.
Neither do I think 2 million Israelites left. (I already indicated a more likely sounding theory (though just one of several theories that are interesting) above (as I talked about) seems more plausible to me at the moment) (Also, to me this whole topic of the details of precisely where the Israelites came from geographically, traveled around, when, etc., really has never been a topic to me, and is just interesting academic stuff really; I don't seem to have a dog in whatever that fight is about numbers at a given moment in time or such, whatever ongoing old debates are going on around numbers, evidence, etc., lol... that's not some old debate for me... Not my war. lol)

But if we do share any additional interesting archeology any further, it should be in a thread that is about that, and not this thread, of course.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I use 2M people, rather than the 600k men reported in the text since unlike the scribes that wrote Exodus, I consider non-men to also be people. It is the 2M people that would have left a gaping hole in the Egyptian economy (and housing market) and on the Sinai desert. (I once realized that a 40 years the Sinai meander should have left about 2M graves that are also not found.

Yes, you are using a 100,000 people number, but that isn't supported by anything but speculations.

As for the origins of the Israelites, I thought that was pretty clear -- they are Canaanites with a splinter religion that first start forming a state in the Judean Hills in the early Iron Age.

But if we do share any additional interesting archeology any further, it should be in a thread that is about that, and not this thread, of course.
OK, maybe.
 
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sjastro

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Chatbots cannot lie instead they hallucinate.
ChatGPT's hallucination has resulted in it having the dubious honour of being the first chatbot to be sued for defamation.
Experts are in a quandary if non sentient chatbots are open to legal prosecution.

 
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Halbhh

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Earlier in this thread Bing made one of its few accurate comments.
[Bing wrote:]
You are correct. Shoshenq I, also known as Shishak in the Bible...(etc. etc.) .... ...Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Now that ('thanks for bringing it to my attention') is amusing to me.
 
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Halbhh

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Made me laugh at first. Often when people defame others it's often just by wrong guessing. Applying stereotypes -- which are going to be wrong pretty often, etc.

Or another thing that comes to mind is the commonplace (everywhere) ad hominems in internet forums -- any way of disparaging characterizing another person (which is extremely common in internet forums) -- it's a bit like a chatbot program has taken over the attacking person's brain, isn't it?

So, in a way, these chatbot posts remind me of just commonplace posts that many individuals make.
 
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FireDragon76

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I tried to play a chess game with ChatGPT (which uses GPT-3) recently, and it would play a few good moves, then forget the board position. It was like playing a grandmaster with Alzheimer's. I had it analyze one of my games I played with a Chessmaster 11 personality, but I think it was mistaken about a sacrifice the engine made, saying that it was futile (21 ... Nxe2).



Engine analysis with both Chessmaster 11 and Stockfish 16 shows that GPT-3 was in error, and the CM engine personality gained some space in a cramped position and the sacrifice was sound. It lost due to an innacuracy with an f pawn, not the sacrifice as ChatGPT claimed. The personality BTW is Josh Waitzkin Age 6, 1200 Elo... but on my machine it plays with the tactical depth of an 1800 level player, and I've only beaten it a few times. CM's TheKing350 is an engine that's over a decade and a half old, and it is at least 300 points stronger on modern hardware

I heard from another chessplayer who is testing out GPT-4 (which costs $$$ to use) that GPT-4 is better, that it can actually play chess games and annotate them accurately, without constantly forgetting or hallucinating what it is doing. GTP-3 can annotate games but the analysis appears flawed, below even what a rudimentary chess engine can produce. It doesn't seem to have real insight into chess.

I've run Lc0 also, especially the Maia weights, which are trained to make human mistakes and therefore result in human-like play. Lc0 is an amazing chess engine, and comes up with some creative chess games. Whereas Stockfish feels more mechanical, Leela actually feels like you are playing against a Paul Morphy type personality given to spectacular and creative play. The only downside is that to truly shine, Lc0 depends on some beefy hardware and isn't the most energy-efficient way to do simple brute-force analysis, where Stockfish really shines.
 
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