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Featured An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Ripheus27, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Der Alter,

    There are too many theological holes in your arguments. You seem to be pushing a barrow of your own agenda.

    I'm working on 45 academic articles from my 480pp dissertation. I do not have the time to minutely go through your material to discover all the 'holes'.

    My brief study of aiwnios found the following:

    The word aiwnios (eternal) is the very same word associated with punishment as with eternal life. Therefore, eternal punishment is as long as eternal life will be. What’s the meaning of aiwnios? (Matt 25:46 ESV)

    Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek lexicon contributors studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint to the NT and concluded that it means ‘eternal’ and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means ‘without end … eternal life’ (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

    The most extensive word studies in NT Greek are in Kittel & Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 10 vols (Eerdmans, 1964ff). In vol 1, Hermann Sasse's study of aiwnios concluded that it means 'eternal' in four ways:
    1. of God (Rom 16:26 NIV). It 'contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time' (Sasse in Kittel, vol 1, 1964:206).
    2. of divine possessions and gifts (e.g. of things temporal and things eternal (1 Cor 4:18 NIV);
    3. The expression 'eternal kingdom' (1 Pet 1:11 NIV);
    4. 'of the mystery hidden for long ages past' (Rom 16:25 NIV), κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου = kata apokalupsin musteriou chronois aiwniois sesigemenou = Lit: according to revelation mystery kept secret for the ages past (eternal).
    Works consulted

    Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature [Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House) [This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’ (4th rev & augmented edn 1952) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii)].

    Sincerely,
    Oz
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Der Alter,
    There are too many theological holes in your arguments. You seem to be pushing a barrow of your own agenda.
    I'm working on 45 academic articles from my 480pp dissertation. I do not have the time to minutely go through your material to discover all the 'holes'.
    My brief study of aiwnios found the following:
    The word aiwnios (eternal) is the very same word associated with punishment as with eternal life. Therefore, eternal punishment is as long as eternal life will be. What’s the meaning of aiwnios? (Matt 25:46 ESV)
    Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek lexicon contributors studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint to the NT and concluded that it means ‘eternal’ and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means ‘without end … eternal life’ (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).
    The most extensive word studies in NT Greek are in Kittel & Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 10 vols (Eerdmans, 1964ff). In vol 1, Hermann Sasse's study of aiwnios concluded that it means 'eternal' in four ways:eek:f God (Rom 16:26 NIV). It 'contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time' (Sasse in Kittel, vol 1, 1964:206).

    1. of divine possessions and gifts (e.g. of things temporal and things eternal (1 Cor 4:18 NIV);
    2. The expression 'eternal kingdom' (1 Pet 1:11 NIV);
    3. 'of the mystery hidden for long ages past' (Rom 16:25 NIV), κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου = kata apokalupsin musteriou chronois aiwniois sesigemenou = Lit: according to revelation mystery kept secret for the ages past (eternal).Works consulted
    Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature [Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House) [This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’ (4th rev & augmented edn 1952) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii)].
    Sincerely,
    Oz
    I have the Abridged edition of TDNT and the most recent BDAG and I agree with the definition you posted. However there are folks here who reject these sources because there are other older sources, e.g. Thayer, Strong's, which "prove" that "aion" means "age" and "aioniws" means "age during" or some such.
    .....I had hoped to avoid "pushing a barrow of [my] own agenda." I reviewed every occurrence of aion and aioniws in the NT searching for grammatical clues in each passage which might indicate the meaning that the writer intended. I did not find any passages where "aion" or "aioniws" occur with other adjectives which define/describe "aion" or"aioniws" as a period of time less than eternity/eternal. Best wishes on your dissertation.
     
  3. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    that all fine and dandy DA but again what does that prove? scripture equates Jesus with the alpha and omega the same why it does with the logos, yet you reject the one and not the other? why? seems to me because some scholar says so. And besides all that, if you believe Jesus was with the Father from eternity past then in fact Jesus was before the logos and alpha and omega where ever put into words, thus can very easily be in reference to Him.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong! What I rejected was you equating the "alpha privative" with Jesus being the Alpha and Omega. The "alpha privative" is a point of Greek grammar it is not related to Jesus being or not being the "Alpha and Omega" in any way.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's just an opinion, not evidence. And it only takes one piece of evidence to prove that opinion wrong, & here i've provided dozens of such pieces of evidence:

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Arnt & Gingrich is over 40 years out of date. The updated version is BDAG 2001, which says aionion can refer to a long period of time. So do a number of other scholars, e.g. LSJ gives "age lasting" as the first definition. As for Matt.25:46:

    Regarding your questions, nikolai, there are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

    (1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

    (2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

    Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

    That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...onscious-torment.8080333/page-9#post-73171835

    "This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

    Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

    For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    continued at:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/
     
  7. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    Although I quasi-believe in ECT, I do think ClementofA is making a good argument for universalism.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Der Alter,

    I'm convinced that the etymology of aiwnios means eternal. BAGD as a lexicon contains the latest Greek information on words. Kittel's 10 vols are the most extensive word studies every researched for NT words.

    I've provided evidence above that aiwnios 'contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time' (Sasse in Kittel, vol 1, 1964:206).

    Relying on Thayer's lexicon is like depending on a radio studio with turn tables, cartridge machines and reel-to-reel tape recorders when today's studios are driven by music, advts and recorded programmes on computer. I'm a former radio DJ from the 60s and 70s who last night was an announcer for a 2-hour Christian programme in a computerised studio.

    Also beware of Thayer's worldview. His lexicon is not only old (I have the 1885 edition, corrected in 1889) but he was a Unitarian who denied the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Take a read of: Doctrinal Error in Thayer's Lexicon.

    Relying on Strong's concordance/'lexicon' is a bit like relying on a Tiger Moth plane to transverse the Pacific Ocean. Strong's is a great KJV concordance, but as for a reliable Greek and Hebrew Lexicon, I'd give it a miss.

    However, I also understand that many Christians do not read Hebrew or Greek, so Strong's is regarded as an OK way to get to the meaning of words. What lexicons don't do is understand the grammar associated with words, sentences, and syntax.

    Oz
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Clem,

    So that I can understand what you post, would you please provide exact quotations for aiwnios from BAGD, rather than your paraphrase?

    Which Bible translation do you use for this quote?

    Oz
     
  10. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    Correct. Which is further proof that those who push loss of salvation or believe salvation can be lost are on the wrong side of scriptures.

    John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
    and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
    These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Anyone who questions/rejects the truth you posted above................will say eternal life may have an end for some if some don't do___________ or do___________.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You're preaching to the choir about Strong's and Thayer's. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. But for folks who rely on cheap, read free, online sources that's what they get. This is mostly for the folks who don't know the definition of aionios from the most recent BDAG
    αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos.,Bell. 4, 461αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    See the first definition given here:

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/bdag-on-aionios/1313

    Which Der Alter always purposely leaves out.

    BTW its BDAG, not BAGD. BAGD is another outdated version.


    What does it matter. Use any one you like.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Have you ever heard of etymological fallacy?

    BAGD is out of date. BDAG (c. 2001) is more up to date . The same author as BDAG, Danker, produced another lexicon in 2009.

    The info BDAG contains is mostly just context-less citations or citations with a few out of context words.

    BDAG generally provides no basis or reasons for their conclusions.

    Many people just blindly believe whatever BDAG says like it's an infallible pontiff for Protestants.

    Moreover BDAG is selective in its inclusion of ancient references, often omitting many of them. For the aionion entry, for example, it left out dozens of usages of the word where it refers to a finite duration, which i give here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

    Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)

    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)



    The Kittel (TDNT, 1964) entry on aionion is full of opinions but almost entirely barren of examples of the usage of the word in ancient Greek. It provides 11 pages re aion, but a paltry page & a half on aionios (cf. Vol. 1, p.197-209).

    The entry on aionion (p.208-209) is the work of one man, Sasse.

    It states on p.208 "In later prose & poetry [aionion] is also used in the sense of "lifelong" or "enduring" in accordance with the basic meaning -> [aion]."

    Sasse opines "In the LXX [olam] is often rendered adjectively by [aionion], the sense thus being affected, e.g. in [Psalm 24:7]...("everlasting doors") instead of "ancient doors";

    Yet Sasse provides no basis for that opinion, while the LXX consistently renders olam by aion & aionion.. Many versions, BTW, have "ancient doors" (Psa.24:7; NIV, NASB, ESV, etc).

    Sasse (TDNT) opines "In the LXX...[Psa. 77:5] "eternal years"...instead of "years long past"...", yet almost every version does not say "eternal": https://biblehub.com/psalms/77-5.htm

    Including those translating the LXX:

    I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years. (Psa.77:5, Brenton, LXX)
    I considered the days of old: I recollected the years of ancient times; (CTT, LXX)
    I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years. (CAB, LXX)
    I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years. (LXX 2012)
    https://studybible.info/Brenton/Psalms 77

    Sasse opines that the "concept of eternity is weakened in...R.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9; Tt.1:2...The phrase in Phlm. 15...reminds us of the non-biblical usage (-> 208) and of..."slave for life" in Dt.15:17" (p.208-209, TDNT, Vol. 1, by Sasse).

    "Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment."

    According to TDNT, ed Kittel, author Sasse, Vol 1, p.168, Sasse remarks "Cf. for this expression Jos.Bell.,6,434..."of the lifelong imprisonment of John...", with "lifelong" being the Greek word aionios.

    TDNT says re the remedy for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

    “It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

    TDNT also says "ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him....In men [it] is preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)...Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated...to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings" (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


    Page 206 discusses the word aion, not aionion. It never says "eternity which transcends time". And regurgitating a 1964 opinion of one man does not count as "evidence" for anything. Also where does the NT ever refer to an "eternity which transcends time"? That is a pagan concept of philosophers like Plato.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "No matter how widely accepted a lexicon is, to uncritically accept whatever it says without question is only to perpetuate the errors of those who contributed to it if they have (whether unintentionally or because of theological bias) made any.

    Now, since the New Testament was not written by Greeks but by Hebrew men using the Greek language, shouldn’t we expect the idioms and word-meanings found in the NT to be, in general, derived not from secular Greek literature, but rather from the Old Testament Scriptures? While I’m certainly not suggesting that 1st century secular Greek works should be disregarded as irrelevant, shouldn’t the LXX be considered more appropriate and useful in determining the meaning(s) that Christ and the authors of the NT (who, of course, were Jewish) would have ascribed to the words aion and aionios rather than, say, the works of a 4th century BC Classical Greek philosopher? I mean, assuming there was such a thing in existence in the 1st century as the Hebrew Bible translated into Koine Greek, shouldn’t it be one of the primary sources to which one should refer when trying to ascertain what a 1st century Jew most likely meant when he used the words aion and aionios in a work written in Koine Greek? Or am I missing something?

    As far as the definitions of aionios provided by BDAG, I think the first definition given (“pertaining to a long period of time” that is past) could apply to the word as it appears in the LXX in a number of places (e.g., Job 22:15; Ps 24:7; Ps 24:9; Ps 77:5; Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Isa 63:11; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Eze 26:20; Eze 36:2; Hab 3:6). But I wonder what definition of aionios BDAG would consider most appropriate when a time of limited future duration is in view? Because the LXX abounds with such examples (e.g., Gen 17:7; Gen 17:8; Gen 17:13; Gen 17:19; Gen 48:4; Ex 12:14; Ex 12:17; Ex 27:21; Ex 28:43; Ex 29:28; Ex 30:21; Ex 31:16; Ex 31:17; Lev 6:18; Lev 6:22; Lev 7:34; Lev 7:36; Lev 10:9; Lev 10:15; Lev 16:29; Lev 16:31; Lev 16:34; Lev 17:7; Lev 23:14; Lev 23:21; Lev 23:31; Lev 23:41; Lev 24:3; Lev 24:8; Lev 24:9; Lev 25:34; Num 10:8; Num 15:15; Num 18:8; Num 18:11; Num 18:19; Num 18:23; Num 19:10; Num 19:21; Num 25:13; 1Ch 16:17; Job 3:18; Job 10:22; Job 21:11; Job 41:4; Ps 76:4; Ps 78:66; Ps 105:10; Isa 24:5; Isa 55:13; Isa 60:15; Jer 5:22; Jer 18:16; Jer 20:17; Jer 23:40; Jer 25:9; Jer 25:12; Jer 51:39; Eze 35:5; Eze 35:9; Jon 2:6; Mic 2:9).

    While some might see the remaining occurrences of aionios in the LXX as falling under the last two definitions provided by BDAG (e.g., Gen 9:12; Gen 9:16; Gen 21:33; Ex 3:15; 2Sa 23:5; Job 33:12; Job 34:17; Ps 112:6; Ps 139:24; Isa 26:4; Isa 33:14; Isa 35:10; Isa 40:28; Isa 45:17; Isa 51:11; Isa 54:4; Isa 54:8; Isa 55:3; Isa 56:5; Isa 60:19; Isa 60:20; Isa 61:7-8; Isa 63:12; Jer 31:3; Jer 32:40; Jer 50:5; Eze 16:60; Eze 37:26; Dan 4:3; Dan 4:34; Dan 7:14; Dan 7:27; Dan 9:24; Dan 12:2), I think even these examples can be understood as referring to temporary duration rather than endless duration in an absolute sense. At any rate, most would agree that, while long and indefinite duration is most likely in view in the former examples, endless duration in an absolute sense is not. So I’m not sure why we can’t understand aionios in Matt 25:46 (for example) to have the same or similar meaning as it has in the LXX translation of Num 25:13 or Jer 25:9.

    I like the concluding definition for aionios found in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan): “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.” That is, the word stands for a “hidden” and indefinite duration of time, whether past or future. This seems to be the meaning of olam in the Hebrew Bible, and since aion and aionion seem to have been employed by the inspired writers of the NT as the Greek equivalents of this single Hebrew word, this definition would be most consistent. And as it seems likely that Jesus would’ve spoken Hebrew or Aramaic (at least, when he was speaking to his disciples, like in Matt 25:46), the word he would have used would have either been olam or alam."

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/bdag-on-aionios/1313/10
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Gr,

    That wasn't the topic I addressed.

    Oz
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Clem,

    While Sasse did the major work on aiwnion (eternal/everlasting), no academic publication worth its salt is excluded from peer-review. So, many scholars and an editor (Gerhard Kittel) are involved in the publication of vol 1 of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. It is NOT the work of man, although it is attributed to one man.

    As to your last paragraph, you are correct and wrong. You are correct that aiwnios is not on p. 206 of vol 1 Kittel. It's on pp. 208-209. I was the one who made the error with pagination.

    You seem to be going up the garden path with your question: 'Also where does the NT ever refer to an "eternity which transcends time"?' That's language from Sasse and it refers to the eternity of God. He gives the reference as Rom 16:26, which states:

    'but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—' (ESV)​

    The NKJV translates as 'the everlasting God'.

    In your view, does the eternal God transcend time or not?

    Oz
     
  17. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Der Alter,

    You obviously have access to the BDAG online. How can I gain access to that? Is it subscription based?

    I can access your quote anonymously HERE, but that's inadequate for me as a researcher.

    Oz
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Clem,

    So would you do a better job at developing a dictionary (lexicon) for NT Greek than BDAG?

    NO dictionary that I know of presents the reasons for their conclusions. Try Oxford Dictionaries Online, Collins Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Dictionary, etc and see if they give you context driven definitions.

    Oz
     
  19. drich0150

    drich0150 Regular Member

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    for whom?

    When ever Hell is describe it is eternal, and only one being is described as warranting the 'full ride' in an eternal hell. That being satan. Hell was made eternal for him and him alone, it is not his kingdom but his scourge and punishment. everything else cast into hell is consumed by it.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Actually I have the Logos software and I have "purchased" both BDB, several years ago, and BDAG, about a month or 2 ago. The basic software was free and I think BDB cost about $60 and BDAG was about $30.
    The 1957 edition of BAGD can be read online at this link. One drawback is the Greek does not reproduce correctly. Click on name of Greek letter to see words under that letter.
    http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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