An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Ripheus27

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So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.
 

Call me Nic

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So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 speaks of "everlasting destruction" upon the unsaved. Something that is described as everlasting is that which never ceases and never stops.
 
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HTacianas

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So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.

The pain without death of the Revelation was famine leading to starvation, as in, "men shall seek death but shall not find it". The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve.

As to "eternal conscious torment", there are a lot of differing views on it. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary.
 
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Call me Nic

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The pain without death of the Revelation was famine leading to starvation, as in, "men shall seek death but shall not find it". The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve.

As to "eternal conscious torment", there are a lot of differing views on it. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary.
What about the smoke that bellowed out from the bottomless pit and darkened the sun? I don't think that's ever happened before.
 
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dreadnought

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So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.
I believe the word "die" can symbolize pain just like "live" can symbolize life without pain. Here would be an example:

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV
 
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Ripheus27

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The pain without death of the Revelation was famine leading to starvation, as in, "men shall seek death but shall not find it". The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who besieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve.

If I were a preterist, I would accept that. However, my opinion regarding Apollyon does not square with such an analysis at present.
 
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ClementofA

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2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 speaks of "everlasting destruction" upon the unsaved. Something that is described as everlasting is that which never ceases and never stops.

The Greek word "everlasting" there is the adjective aionion, which is related to the noun, aion meaning "age". Accordingly more literal translations render 2 Thess.1:9 as follows:

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLV)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

The Greek adjective aionion, & noun aion, are often used of finite duration in ancient Koine Greek. Here is a list of examples where aionion is finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
 
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Call me Nic

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The Greek word "everlasting" there is the adjective aionion, which is related to the noun, aion meaning "age". Accordingly more literal translations render 2 Thess.1:9 as follows:

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLV)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

The Greek adjective aionion, & noun aion, are often used of finite duration in ancient Koine Greek. Here is a list of examples where aionion is finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
Age-during or age-abiding, however you look at it, describes continuous punishment. Whether it be called everlasting or age-during.
 
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ClementofA

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So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment."

If the wages of sin is death & death = annihilation, & everyone has sinned, would we all be annihilated as soon as we committed our first sin?
 
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Ripheus27

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If the wages of sin is death & death = annihilation, & everyone has sinned, would we all be annihilated as soon as we committed our first sin?

Apparently not.

"One day Descartes walked into a bar. The bartender asked him if he wanted a drink. 'I think not!' Descartes said, and disappeared."
 
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ClementofA

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Age-during or age-abiding, however you look at it, describes continuous punishment. Whether it be called everlasting or age-during.

By definition an "age" can be finite or infinite. Therefore translating the Greek words as an "age" is more honest. Translating them as "everlasting" injects translator bias into the Bible & misleads the reader who is unfamiliar with the range of meaning of the underlying Greek word.

This thread discusses that:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-most-modern-translations-be-in-error.8078998/
 
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Ripheus27

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I've seen all those ainionioinioioaionianious arguments before ;) but I was instead questioning whether Biblical destruction just means the same thing as annihilation, seeing as Apollyon the Destroyer doesn't appear to annihilate anything?
 
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Call me Nic

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I've seen all those ainionioinioioaionianious arguments before ;) but I was instead questioning whether Biblical destruction just means the same thing as annihilation, seeing as Apollyon the Destroyer doesn't appear to annihilate anything?
I think it would depend on the context friend. If destruction lasts forever, I would have to think it's not our idea of annihilate. To be annihilated means to cease to exist, whereas in hell, men who are condemned cease to have life. It doesn't mean they cease to exist.
 
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I've seen all those ainionioinioioaionianious arguments before ;) but I was instead questioning whether Biblical destruction just means the same thing as annihilation, seeing as Apollyon the Destroyer doesn't appear to annihilate anything?
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other adjectives and adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other adjectives and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
[3]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
n this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
 
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ClementofA

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@ClementofA Well Revelation 14:11 is described as "ages upon ages" in the Greek. "ages upon ages" of torment. In fact, ages upon ages sounds way more terrifying than everlasting to be honest.

Literally it is "unto" or "into" the "ages OF ages". If someone suffers "unto" a certain point in time, they don't suffer forever. And if they suffer "into" an age or ages, it doesn't mean they suffer throughout the entire duration of that age or ages. Moreover, "ages" themselves may end.


12 points re forever and ever (literally "ages of ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038


Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...is-god-a-monster.8042349/page-8#post-72158527
 
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Call me Nic

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Literally it is "unto" or "into" the "ages OF ages". If someone suffers "unto" a certain point in time, they don't suffer forever. And if they suffer "into" an age or ages, it doesn't mean they suffer throughout the entire duration of that age or ages. Moreover, "ages" themselves may end.


12 points re forever and ever (literally "ages of ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038


Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...is-god-a-monster.8042349/page-8#post-72158527
But nevertheless the Bible never teaches any doctrine whatsoever where a man that is thrown into hell can then be saved and given life from it, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. At the Great White Throne judgement, the dead are given up from the sea and hell and all are judged according to their works and according to the Book of Life. Whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. They who are found in it receive life.

To teach anything different is to deny that God is infinite. Remember, God is described with the same language used to describe the length of hell in the New Testament Greek, i.e. "and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages" (YLT), and we know for a fact that God is unsearchable and infinite. To deny that hell is forever is to deny that God is forever, otherwise you are cherry-picking an interpretation if you cannot apply the same rule to either understanding.
 
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joshua 1 9

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God has impressed upon me may times that He is a God of absolute perfect Justice. Everyone gets exactly what they deserve for what they have done. The word destruction is used many times. We are told that the Lake of Fire is the second death but not much information is given to tell us what this means. We know that there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth at that time.

Isaiah 65:17
For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
 
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joshua 1 9

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To deny that hell is forever is to deny that God is forever
Just what scripture are you talking about? Jesus has the "keys of hell and of death". What do you suppose that means?
 
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