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Featured An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Ripheus27, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Strike 1, Want to try again?
    Marvin Vincent-John 3:15
    Believeth in Him ( πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν )

    The best texts read ἐν αὐτῷ , construing with

    have eternal life, and rendering may in Him have eternal life. So Rev.
    Should not perish, but
    The best texts omit.
    Have eternal life
    A characteristic phrase of John for
    live forever. See John 3:16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40, John 6:47,John 6:54; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:12.
    Mark 3: 29
    Guilty ( ἔνοχος )
    From ἐν , in, ἔχω , to hold or have. Lit., is in the grasp of, or holden of. Compare 1 Corinthians 11:27;James 2:10.
    Eternal damnation ( αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος )
    An utterly false rendering. Rightly as Rev., of an eternal sin. So Wyc., everlasting trespass. The A. V. has gone wrong in following Tyndale, who, in turn, followed the erroneous text of Erasmus, κρίσεως , judgment, wrongly rendered damnation. See Matthew 23:33, and compare Rev. there.
    https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/vnt/luke-18.html
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no idea what you are talking about. What relevance does it have to do with the topic under discussion, namely: "Many scholars explain - why - they are translating a word a certain way in a particular context. Do you not read much?" Then you asked for an example. I gave you Vincent's remarks on biblehub.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    And I quoted two of Vincent's verse commentaries where he translated aionios as eternal/everlasting more than once with no explanation.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No you did not give me "the dictionary meaning of the word." You gave me a cherry picked definition. Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster dictionary online. As I said you have not corrected me on anything.
    crap verb(1)
    \ ˈkrap \
    crapped; crapping
    Definition of Crap
    (Entry 1 of 4)

    intransitive verb
    usually vulgar
    : DEFECATE
    crap
    noun (1)
    Definition of Crap (Entry 2 of 4)
    1a usually vulgar : FECES
    b usually vulgar : the act of defecating
    2 slang, sometimes vulgar : NONSENSE, RUBBISHalso : STUFF sense 4b
    Definition of CRAP
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is that another irrelevant off topic diversion? How does that address this:

    I have no idea what you are talking about. What relevance does it have to do with the topic under discussion, namely: "Many scholars explain - why - they are translating a word a certain way in a particular context. Do you not read much?" Then you asked for an example. I gave you Vincent's remarks on biblehub.
     
  6. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    I have a question: which dictionaries, concordances, etc. were divinely inspired? Shouldn't we interpret the divinely-inspired original text using divinely-inspired secondary texts?
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Which "divinely-inspired secondary texts" are you referring to? I have been a Christian since Johnson was president and I am am not aware of any such secondary texts. The major problem with "interpreting" the divinely-inspired original texts is lots of folks like to make up their own meaning for the Hebrew and Greek words in the manuscripts and they like to seek out Bible translations which support their agendas. The JW have their own translation the New World Translation. The LDS have their own translation the Joseph Smith Translation. No I am not talking about the book of Mormon. There are several "literal" translations around which appeal to certain groups; Young's, Modern, Berean Concordant etc. Unless someone has a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek how would they which, if any, is the real deal? They don't they just pick the one that supports their biases/presuppositions.
     
  8. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    :doh::doh::doh:
     
  9. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    well I believe scripture does a fine job of defining how a word should be used and scriptures tell us the aions END so that good enough for me.
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    'Vast majority of lexicons' ????

    There you go with another Appeal to Anonymous Authority Logical Fallacy.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is the "head in the sand" argument. The definition of any word is not determined by one occurrence. Let's see what happens when we use the "head in the sand" argument with the word κόσμος/kosmos which is usually translated world.
    [1] Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[[2]Mark 8:36, [3] Luke 9:25]
    [4] Act_17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
    [5] Acts 19:27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
    [6] Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    [7] 1 John 5:19
    (8) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
    [8] Revelation 12:9
    (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    [9] Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth?
    Was the faith of the Roman church literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet earth?
    Did the entire planet earth literally, actually lie in wickedness?
    Was the goddess Artemis actually, literally worshiped throughout the entire world?
    Did the disciples literally, actuallyturn the entire planet earth upside down?
    Did the entire planet earth literally, actually wonder after the beast?
    Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth?
    .....If I stick my head in the sand based solely on these 9 verses I would say that kosmos cannot mean the whole world, i.e. planet earth, because here is is used to refer to something that could not be the entire planet. What is it called when someone uses exaggeration to emphasize a point? E.g. “that person was as big as a house.” I think it is called hyperbole.



     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've posted the info here before re all the lexicons that disagree with BDAG. Or you could do your own research into what lexicons say, if you think i am lieing, and find out that what i said is true. From your responses to my posts thus far, i don't get the impression you have much interest in what i've been posting.

    As for your "anonymous fallacy" claim, i referred to lexicons. I have dozens of lexicons, dictionaries, wordbooks & the like sitting on my bookshelves, including all those that are well known and many others. None of them agree with BDAG re the point i referred to. That should be specific enough to put your fallacy claim to rest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Is that the final conclusion here...?

    God Bless!
     
  14. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Neo I missed your point here, can you rephrase the question
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I'm just monitoring this thread to see if you guys ever find out the answer to the question of eternality of hell...?

    Is it truly eternal, or just a long time, or what...?

    God Bless!
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    According to most of the early church fathers who mention "eternal punishment."
    Clement [A.D. 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
    Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
    On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.
    Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap VIII
    And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
    First Apology Chap.LII
    And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
    Justin Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. IV
    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’
    Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXVII. —[pupil of Polycarp who was a pupil of John]
    2. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.
    Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV Chap XXVI
    2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language:92 thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal.
    Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172.] Address to the Greeks. Chap. XIII. — Theory of the Soul’s Immortality.
    The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal.37 Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
    Clement of Alexandria [a.d. 153-193-217.] Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap X
    For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
    Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Chap. XLVIII. Part First Apology
    Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
    Tertullian VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chap. XXXIV.
    We, however, so understand the soul’s immortality as to believe it “lost,” not in the sense of destruction, but of punishment, that is, in hell.
    Commodianus [a.d. 240] The Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline.
    Chap XXIX
    By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.
    Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Refutation of All Heresies. Chap XXIII
    But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unqenchable fire.
    Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
    9. And therefore with reason in these plagues that occur, there are not wanting God’s stripes and scourges; and since they are of no avail in this matter, and do not convert individuals to God by such terror of destructions, there remains after all the eternal dungeon, and the continual fire, and the everlasting punishment; nor shall the groaning of the suppliants be heard there, because here the terror of the angry God was not heard,
    24. An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering.
    What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.

     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>I've posted the info here before re all the lexicons that disagree with BDAG. Or you could do your own research into what lexicons say, if you think i am lieing, and find out that what i said is true. From your responses to my posts thus far, i don't get the impression you have much interest in what i've been posting.
    As for your "anonymous fallacy" claim, i referred to lexicons. I have dozens of lexicons, dictionaries, wordbooks & the like sitting on my bookshelves, including all those that are well known and many others. None of them agree with BDAG re the point i referred to. That should be specific enough to put your fallacy claim to rest.
    <end>.
    You continually make the empty claims about all those "dozens" of unidentified lexicons, dictionaries, wordbooks etc. which allegedly disprove BDAG. But, to my knowledge, you have never provided any direct quotes from any of them. I have already proved that one of them Marvin Young does not contradict BDAG on the meaning of aion/aionios. How about posting some credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical etc. evidence to support your claims.
    .....Forget about Strong's.
    Online Bible FAQ
    Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
    A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
    http://www.onlinebible.net/faqs.html
    Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
    http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/e...ervan.9780310233435&QueryStringSite=Zondervan
    Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Please let me know which are 'all the lexicons' that disagree with BDAG.

    Are you referring to Thayer; Liddell, Scott & Jones? Which other Greek lexicons?
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did you forget to finish your thought? As it stands that sentence doesn't say anything.

    Furthermore, you quoted a mere 7 "church fathers", which is not "most" of them.

    Moreover, why quote "church fathers" when you consider them irrelevant & uninspired:

    Additionally, quoting English mistranslations of Greek (Latin etc) words that are a point of debate in the whole universalism vs endless torturism discussion does not prove that the church fathers you quoted mis-translations of were opposed to universalism. As Patristic scholar Illaria Ramelli said:

    "Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them...an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822)." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory



    Nothing there affirms endless punishment or denies universal salvation.

    Here we have the Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD) remark in the context of an eschatological 8th day Sabbath rest, when wickedness ceases to exist, all things are made new & God will be "giving rest to all things":

    15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. The Epistle of Barnabas (translation Roberts-Donaldson)

    The Epistle of Barnabas there speaks of wickedness, not the wicked, ceasing to exist.



    Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism.


    Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism. The "remorse" spoken of may be ungodly sorrow like that sorrow a criminal experiences when caught & punished, not the "godly remorse" that worketh - repentance - that Paul refers to:

    2 Cor.7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    Therefore, in light of the following, Clement of Alexandria, like his pupil Oregon, should be considered a universalist.

    "CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150-220 A.D.) likewise has sounded these words: “The Lord, [says John in his First Epistle,] is a propitiation, ‘not for our sins only,’ that is, of the faithful, ‘but also for the whole world.’ Therefore He indeed saves all; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining the honour and dignity, that ‘to Him every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,’ that is [to say,] angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world."

    That quote is "...from a fragment of Clement's lost work Hypotyposeis preserved in Latin in the later writer Cassiodorus (ca 485- ca 585)...This passage is quite interesting, since Origen and Origen's followers (and many later universalists) often cited the teaching of Philippians 2" as "implying universal salvation by Christ" (The Devil's Redemption: A New History and Interpretation of Christian Universalism – June 5, 2018, by Michael J. McClymond, p.242-243).


    The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria By Clement of Alexandria:

    The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria

    "God does not take vengeance, which is the requital of evil for evil, but chastises for the benefit of the chastised (Stromata 7.16)

    "To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him.

    "Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. ....

    "And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him. (Stromata 7.2)

    The Universalists: Clement of Alexandria : ChristianUniversalism

    “For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.”

    “So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.”

    “For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually.” (Strom, VII, ii; Pedag. I, 8; on I John ii, 2)

    ...

    ”He is in no respect whatever the ’cause of evil. For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe, both generally and particularly. It is then the function of the righteousness of salvation to improve everything as far as practicable. For even minor matters are arranged with a view to the salvation of that which is better, and for an abode suitable for people’s character. Now everything that is virtuous changes for the better; having as the proper cause of change the free choice of knowledge, which the soul has in its own power. But necessary corrections, through the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, both by the attendant angels, and by various acts of anticipative judgment, and by the perfect judgment, compel egregious sinners to repent.” (Str. VII 12.2-5)

    “To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him. Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely.” (Str. VII)

    “either the Lord does not care for all men; and this is the case either because He is unable (which is not to be thought, for it would be a proof of weakness), or because He is unwilling, which is not the attribute of a good being. And He who for our sakes assumed flesh capable of suffering, is far from being luxuriously indolent. Or He does care for all, which is befitting for Him who has become Lord of all. For He is Saviour; not [the Saviour] of some, and of others not. But in proportion to the adaptation possessed by each, He has dispensed His beneficence both to Greeks and Barbarians, even to those of them that were predestinated, and in due time called, the faithful and elect. Nor can He who called all equally, and assigned special honours to those who have believed in a specially excellent way, ever envy any. Nor can He who is the Lord of all, and serves above all the will of the good and almighty Father, ever be hindered by another. But neither does envy touch the Lord, who without beginning was impassible; nor are the things of men such as to be envied by the Lord. But it is another, he whom passion hath touched, who envies. And it cannot be said that it is from ignorance that the Lord is not willing to save humanity, because He knows not how each one is to be cared for. For ignorance applies not to the God who, before the foundation of the world, was the counsellor of the Father. For He was the Wisdom “in which” the Sovereign God “delighted.” For the Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the production of all things, and His Wisdom. He is then properly called the Teacher of the beings formed by Him. Nor does He ever abandon care for men, by being drawn aside from pleasure, who, having assumed flesh, which by nature is susceptible of suffering, trained it to the condition of impassibility. And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all?” (Str. VII)

    ”God’s punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner” (Str. VI)

    “But punishment does not avail to him who has sinned, to undo his sin, but that he may sin no more, and that no one else fall into the like. Therefore the good God corrects for these three causes: First, that he who is corrected may become better than his former self; then that those who are capable of being saved by examples may be driven back, being admonished; and thirdly, that he who is injured may not be readily despised, and be apt to receive injury. And there are two methods of correction—the instructive and the punitive, which we have called the disciplinary. It ought to be known, then, that those who fall into sin after baptism are those who are subjected to discipline; for the deeds done before are remitted, and those done after are purged.” (Str. IV)

    "The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
    — Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11."
    Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

    "Indeed, a century or so after Constantine we have a surprising amount of evidence indicating widespread denial of eternal punishment within the church. Augustine said that 'very many' denied it. 10 Jerome and Basil also expressed alarm about the prevalence of such doubts, while we know that Basil's own younger brother, Gregory of Nyssa, accepted with a few modifications Origen's view of the eventual restoration of the devil and his angels. 11" https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/1999-3_217.pdf

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

    Universalism...First 500 Years





     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The subject is BDAG's 3 NT references to aion as a person. I'll be waiting for you to post a single source that agrees with all three of those.

    After you're finished straining that gnat, you might be interested in responding to dozens of my recent replies to you concerning substantially more substantial matters.

    "No matter how widely accepted a lexicon is, to uncritically accept whatever it says without question is only to perpetuate the errors of those who contributed to it if they have (whether unintentionally or because of theological bias) made any.

    Now, since the New Testament was not written by Greeks but by Hebrew men using the Greek language, shouldn’t we expect the idioms and word-meanings found in the NT to be, in general, derived not from secular Greek literature, but rather from the Old Testament Scriptures? While I’m certainly not suggesting that 1st century secular Greek works should be disregarded as irrelevant, shouldn’t the LXX be considered more appropriate and useful in determining the meaning(s) that Christ and the authors of the NT (who, of course, were Jewish) would have ascribed to the words aion and aionios rather than, say, the works of a 4th century BC Classical Greek philosopher? I mean, assuming there was such a thing in existence in the 1st century as the Hebrew Bible translated into Koine Greek, shouldn’t it be one of the primary sources to which one should refer when trying to ascertain what a 1st century Jew most likely meant when he used the words aion and aionios in a work written in Koine Greek? Or am I missing something?

    As far as the definitions of aionios provided by BDAG, I think the first definition given (“pertaining to a long period of time” that is past) could apply to the word as it appears in the LXX in a number of places (e.g., Job 22:15; Ps 24:7; Ps 24:9; Ps 77:5; Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Isa 63:11; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Eze 26:20; Eze 36:2; Hab 3:6). But I wonder what definition of aionios BDAG would consider most appropriate when a time of limited future duration is in view? Because the LXX abounds with such examples (e.g., Gen 17:7; Gen 17:8; Gen 17:13; Gen 17:19; Gen 48:4; Ex 12:14; Ex 12:17; Ex 27:21; Ex 28:43; Ex 29:28; Ex 30:21; Ex 31:16; Ex 31:17; Lev 6:18; Lev 6:22; Lev 7:34; Lev 7:36; Lev 10:9; Lev 10:15; Lev 16:29; Lev 16:31; Lev 16:34; Lev 17:7; Lev 23:14; Lev 23:21; Lev 23:31; Lev 23:41; Lev 24:3; Lev 24:8; Lev 24:9; Lev 25:34; Num 10:8; Num 15:15; Num 18:8; Num 18:11; Num 18:19; Num 18:23; Num 19:10; Num 19:21; Num 25:13; 1Ch 16:17; Job 3:18; Job 10:22; Job 21:11; Job 41:4; Ps 76:4; Ps 78:66; Ps 105:10; Isa 24:5; Isa 55:13; Isa 60:15; Jer 5:22; Jer 18:16; Jer 20:17; Jer 23:40; Jer 25:9; Jer 25:12; Jer 51:39; Eze 35:5; Eze 35:9; Jon 2:6; Mic 2:9).

    While some might see the remaining occurrences of aionios in the LXX as falling under the last two definitions provided by BDAG (e.g., Gen 9:12; Gen 9:16; Gen 21:33; Ex 3:15; 2Sa 23:5; Job 33:12; Job 34:17; Ps 112:6; Ps 139:24; Isa 26:4; Isa 33:14; Isa 35:10; Isa 40:28; Isa 45:17; Isa 51:11; Isa 54:4; Isa 54:8; Isa 55:3; Isa 56:5; Isa 60:19; Isa 60:20; Isa 61:7-8; Isa 63:12; Jer 31:3; Jer 32:40; Jer 50:5; Eze 16:60; Eze 37:26; Dan 4:3; Dan 4:34; Dan 7:14; Dan 7:27; Dan 9:24; Dan 12:2), I think even these examples can be understood as referring to temporary duration rather than endless duration in an absolute sense. At any rate, most would agree that, while long and indefinite duration is most likely in view in the former examples, endless duration in an absolute sense is not. So I’m not sure why we can’t understand aionios in Matt 25:46 (for example) to have the same or similar meaning as it has in the LXX translation of Num 25:13 or Jer 25:9.

    I like the concluding definition for aionios found in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan): “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.” That is, the word stands for a “hidden” and indefinite duration of time, whether past or future. This seems to be the meaning of olam in the Hebrew Bible, and since aion and aionion seem to have been employed by the inspired writers of the NT as the Greek equivalents of this single Hebrew word, this definition would be most consistent. And as it seems likely that Jesus would’ve spoken Hebrew or Aramaic (at least, when he was speaking to his disciples, like in Matt 25:46), the word he would have used would have either been olam or alam."

    BDAG on aionios
     
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