Amos 9:14-15 Fulfilled, or not?

[parousia70]

Why would that matter?

It's paramount. The Law requires they prove their lineage. Trouble is they can't, and neither can you.

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.


Has Gods prophecy been fulfilled or not?

Well, you are all over the map on whether it is fulfilled or not, so I suggest you get grounded on your own beliefs about it before challenging anyone elses.

First you say its fulfilled, then you say it isn't really fulfilled yet, then you say it is.....

Did "God plant them" in the land in 1948 or was it the UN?

 

[OneAccordRM]

Yes. Without question.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

Claiming that the scriptural term fulness of the gentiles means full number of gentiles is purely an invention from man made traditions and is not grounded at all in the scriptural precedent for the use of the term.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

That doesnt make sense.


You are saying the fullness of the Gentiles came in with Christ.

But Pauls letter to the Romans is post ascension, in which according to Paul, the fullness of the Gentiles was yet future.

If the fullness being mentioned was the Cross, then Paul is saying the fullness has not yet come, when in fact, Christ had already ascended.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

He also referred to is as a mystery, do you know why?

Lets look at another translation, which in fact states the full number of Gentiles.

Rom 11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.


You also ripped Rom 15:29 out of context completely attempting to use semantics.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

This refers to Christs benediction, not the fullness of the Gentiles.



How do you answer?

 

[OneAccordRM]

Did "God plant them" in the land in 1948 or was it the UN?

What can happen except it be the Lords will?

Are you saying the Jews returning to Israel wasnt foreknown by God?

 

[OneAccordRM]

Yes. Without question.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Neither of these verses talk about the "fullness" of the Gentiles.

John 1:16 talks about the fulness of grace, not the fulness of the Gentiles.


Simply using verses that include the word fulness do not corroborate your claim.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Well, you are all over the map on whether it is fulfilled or not, so I suggest you get grounded on your own beliefs about it before challenging anyone elses.

First you say its fulfilled, then you say it isn't really fulfilled yet, then you say it is.....

Did "God plant them" in the land in 1948 or was it the UN?

No Im not, I believe the jews in Israel are the fulfillment, but l cant show the prophecy fulfilled until Christ returns.

Could I be wrong?

Sure, but then it means the prophecy is unfulfilled, and will be fulfilled in the future, because God does not lie.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

We could help 'em out if we can prove to them Jesus did fulfill everything for them.....so Christianity has only itself to blame for their blindness.
​

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in?
.

I believe it has.

Actually the word in that verse is "hardening", such as when Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart and just as Yahweh spanked Egypt hard at the Passover, so did God spank the Jews in AD 70

Exodus 4:21
And Yahweh saith unto Moses, 'when thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand
And I shall harden his heart and he shall not let the people go'.

Romans 11:25
For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, the-this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening/pwrwsiV <4457> from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling ofthe Nations may be entering;

The sabbatarian MJ sect also have the veil of Moses blinding them to the NC of Jesus.
&#12288;
2 Corin 3:14
But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746).
That In Christ it is being-taken-away

Revelation 1:1
An uncovering/veiling/apo-kaluyiV <602> of Jesus Christ which gives to him the God to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness
and He signifies commissioning thru the Messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.



.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I believe it has.

Actually the word in that verse is "hardening", such as when Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart and just as Yahweh spanked Egypt hard at the Passover, so did God spank the Jews in AD 70

Thats a great observation, thanks for clarifying with the simplicity of scripture.

 

[parousia70]

That doesnt make sense.


You are saying the fullness of the Gentiles came in with Christ.

But Pauls letter to the Romans is post ascension, in which according to Paul, the fullness of the Gentiles was yet future.
If the fullness being mentioned was the Cross, then Paul is saying the fullness has not yet come, when in fact, Christ had already ascended.

Now you are not making sense...
The Gospel didn't even go to the gentiles until after the Stoning of Stephen, 3.5 years AFTER the cross....nobody is saying the fulness of the gentiles cam at the cross... nice straw man.

Lets look at another translation, which in fact states the full number of Gentiles.

Rom 11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

Poor translation. Which one is it?? the NIV (Nearly Inspired Version)?

Again, By comparing scripture with scripture, it is clear and unrefuted that the notion of FULNESS in the NT carries with it the idea of the totality of Gods blessings and grace... and NOT a Certain number.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

This refers to Christs benediction, not the fullness of the Gentiles.

OF course it does...FULNESS is NOT A CERTAIN NUMBER...but lets try your theory out:

Why don't you take all the texts i cited and replace FULNESS with FULL NUMBER and tell us how that works out for ya?

I'll do the first couple to get you started.

John 1:16
And of his full number have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the full number of the blessing of the gospel of Christ

 

[parousia70]

Simply using verses that include the word fulness do not corroborate your claim.

Rather, they ABSOLUTELY corroborate it.

Yours is the claim without any scriptural corroboration.

 

[parousia70]

No Im not, I believe the jews in Israel are the fulfillment, but l cant show the prophecy fulfilled until Christ returns.

Funny, I don't see anything in that prophesy that says "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land UNTIL Christ Comes Back", " Says the LORD your God.

Rather, it says NEVER AGAIN. Even you don't believe that.

You believe this earth will be burned to a crisp then REPLACED, which necessitates Jews being Uprooted from their land in the future.

You do not take Amos 9:15 LITERALLY my friend.
I can only wonder why you demand a literal reading from the rest of us when you yourself refuse to take it literally?

Like I said before, you would do well to get your own views on this sorted out before you demand the same from the rest of us.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Now you are not making sense...
The Gospel didn't even go to the gentiles until after the Stoning of Stephen, 3.5 years AFTER the cross....nobody is saying the fulness of the gentiles cam at the cross... nice straw man.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says stephen was stoned 3.5 years after the cross?

Poor translation. Which one is it?? the NIV (Nearly Inspired Version)?

The NLT, which is hardly a "poor" translation.

Its a dynamic translation produced in the modern English vernacular to correct the awkwardness that accompanies the often wooden literal translations, which are all actually dynamic to some extent.

Again, By comparing scripture with scripture, it is clear and unrefuted that the notion of FULNESS in the NT carries with it the idea of the totality of Gods blessings and grace... and NOT a Certain number.

But we are talking about the fulness of the Gentiles, not Gods grace. Paul is talking of a yet future time, when the fulness of the Gentiles would be attained.

OF course it does...FULNESS is NOT A CERTAIN NUMBER...but lets try your theory out:

Time has a numerical value.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,


Seems you are reaching to conform the scripture to your beliefs.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Funny, I don't see anything in that prophesy that says "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land UNTIL Christ Comes Back", " Says the LORD your God.

When Christ returns, we know Israel will be occupied forever, so it stands to reason that any Israelites that are there when he returns, can be verified as being there from that point on, forever.

No need to strain on it.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Amos 9:15 is literal.


Why havent you answered? Is it fulfilled or not?

 

[OneAccordRM]

Rather, it says NEVER AGAIN. Even you don't believe that.

Im perfectly capable of telling you what I believe, I hadnt realized you were making decisions for me.

The Israelis will never be rooted out of their land, God has spoken.


Either the prophecy is fulfilled, or not, doesnt matter which position you take, yes or no both point to the literal future fulfillment.


Thats why you cant answer the question on whether or not its fulfilled and have resorted to telling me what I believe.


But you cant escape this one.

Sorry, it is written.

 

[parousia70]

When Christ returns, we know Israel will be occupied forever, so it stands to reason that any Israelites that are there when he returns, can be verified as being there from that point on, forever.

So you Don't believe the Earth will be burnt to a crisp then REPLACED with a new one After Christ returns? That this present earth remains forever?

Amos 9:15 is literal.

Not if you believe this present earth will be replaced with a New one.....

Why havent you answered? Is it fulfilled or not?

Why should I answer a question you yourself can't even answer ?

Get back to me when you figure out what YOU believe about it and can present that belief with some consistency and clarity... then I'll be happy to share my answer with you.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The Israelis will never be rooted out of their land, God has spoken.

How/on what basis do you identify the modern state of Israel with the Northern Kingdom of Amos?

 

[OneAccordRM]

So you Don't believe the Earth will be burnt to a crisp then REPLACED with a new one After Christ returns? That this present earth remains forever?



Not if you believe this present earth will be replaced with a New one.....




Why should I answer a question you yourself can't even answer ?

Get back to me when you figure out what YOU believe about it and can present that belief with some consistency and clarity... then I'll be happy to share my answer with you.

Is it not written?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.


Tell me, When God destroyed the earth with the flood, did the earth disappear to be replaced with a new one?

Gen_9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.



There is nothing I cant answer with scripture, its perfectly clear.

 

[OneAccordRM]

How/on what basis do you identify the modern state of Israel with the Northern Kingdom of Amos?

Does modern Israel not occupy the northern kingdom?

Indeed, they do.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Funny, I don't see anything in that prophesy that says "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land UNTIL Christ Comes Back", " Says the LORD your God.

Rather, it says NEVER AGAIN. Even you don't believe that.

You believe this earth will be burned to a crisp then REPLACED, which necessitates Jews being Uprooted from their land in the future.

That is what I see also!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7526322/#post56508048
Daniel 12 and Revelation 12

Daniel 12:1
And in that the time, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/qliyewv <2347> becomes,
which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that.
[Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21
"For then shall be a Great Tribulation/qliyiV <2347>,
the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming
[Dan 12:1/Rev 7:14]

Reve 7:14
And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the great Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lamb
[Dan 12:1/Matt 24:21]



.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Does modern Israel not occupy the northern kingdom?

Indeed, they do.

Their capital is not Samaria (which is controled by the Palestinians anyway) and they don't control certain parts of the Northern Kingdom which is now in Syria and Jordan. Besides that, I'm not sure how controling an area would identify a group as the Northern Kingdom. Surely there has to be something beyond political control of an area, otherwise we might as well say the Ottomans were the NK.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Their capital is not Samaria (which is controled by the Palestinians anyway) and they don't control certain parts of the Northern Kingdom which is now in Syria and Jordan. Besides that, I'm not sure how controling an area would identify a group as the Northern Kingdom. Surely there has to be something beyond political control of an area, otherwise we might as well say the Ottomans were the NK.

So is it safe to say you believe the prophecy is unfulfilled?