Amos 9:14-15 Fulfilled, or not?

[OneAccordRM]

I wish I could say the same

J/K.......thanks



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[Interplanner]

No, the Jerusalem that is above does not reach the new earth until the new earth is ready. That is one huge reason for having a different view of the millenium.

As for 11:26 you might read back and see the other view. There is nothing futurist about 11:26, mostly seen in that the quote and use of the Isaiah passages is historic. They are fulfilled for Paul. Saved = sins (debt) taken away in justification. And then see how emphatic the final verses are; God now has bound all men to sin and can have mercy on them all now in Christ. It is not future at all.

I won't go into "all Israel" but it starts back in 3:3. It is not a soundbyte to help futurism make its case. It just answers the passages whole question: why don't more Jews automatically believe?

 

[parousia70]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
So how is that not a fulfillement?

It is.

So your answer to your own Poll is "Yes, the prophecy is fulfilled"

If the preterists say "yes it is fulfilled" and the Futurists also say "yes it is fulfilled", Who then are the people who say "No it is not fulfilled" and why do you, OneAccordRM, believe they are wrong to say that?

 

[keras]

I say Amos 14-15 is NOT fulfilled.
Although the 'firstfruits', that is Judah, have come back to a part of the holy Land, this is far from the complete fulfilment. From many prophesies, we see that Judah faces another judgement and that is logical, because they still refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and don't acknowledge God as their protector.
The great Second Exodus of ALL the Israelites, be they true descendants or grafted in, is yet to happen. Many prophesies tell how the Lord will regenerate the Land and His righteous people will live there. This was God's plan from the beginning; be assured it will happen!

 

[OneAccordRM]

So your answer to your own Poll is "Yes, the prophecy is fulfilled"

If the preterists say "yes it is fulfilled" and the Futurists also say "yes it is fulfilled", Who then are the people who say "No it is not fulfilled" and why do you, OneAccordRM, believe they are wrong to say that?

Observant, indeed.

I say the prophecy is fulfilled, but the prophecy can never truly be known as fulfilled until the time when Christ returns, solidifying the fact that the Israelis currently in Israel were in fact never removed from their land.

But, anyone who claims the prophecy is not fulfilled, and truly believes this, understands that God has proclaimed it, and therefore it must be fulfilled still at some point in the future.

If it must be fulfilled, then there is a remnant of Israelites still beloved by God the Father, as it is written.

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Now, preterists and amillenials hedge their bets on replacement theology, denying the Jews in Israel their rightful place in prophecy, or their existence all together.

But if they claim to be Christians, then they cant call God a liar, which is essentially what they are doing if they refute this prophecy.


This means Daniels prophecy is unfulfilled, because God has promised us by the Prophet Daniel that the 490 year prophecy will make an end to the transgression, which the Jews are currently still guilty of, denying Christ. To deny Christ is antichrist, a sin, which means sin has not been ended.


The Jews in Israel are the only chance the prophecy can be fulfilled, otherwise, the prophecy remains unfulfilled and the future is the only option for a future Israelite occupancy.



Its a checkmate of sources for both preterists and Amillennials.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I say Amos 14-15 is NOT fulfilled.
Although the 'firstfruits', that is Judah, have come back to a part of the holy Land, this is far from the complete fulfilment. From many prophesies, we see that Judah faces another judgement and that is logical, because they still refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and don't acknowledge God as their protector.
The great Second Exodus of ALL the Israelites, be they true descendants or grafted in, is yet to happen. Many prophesies tell how the Lord will regenerate the Land and His righteous people will live there. This was God's plan from the beginning; be assured it will happen!

And the preterist/amil fraud has been exposed for the heresy it is.

 

[Interplanner]

The things he mentioned are already occurring in Christ. It wasn't meant literally or chrono-mechanically.

 

[OneAccordRM]

The things he mentioned are already occurring in Christ. It wasn't meant literally or chrono-mechanically.

Sure, and was Jesus Christ born literally or chrono-mechanically as you say?

Another prophecy to be spiritualized, is that what you are saying?


Sorry, but you are presenting a logical fallacy.

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Was this prophecy fulfilled, or will you turn the Bible into a simple story book filled with fables and events that have and will never happen?

 

[Interplanner]

Actually the counter question for you is more devastating: if he said the city of Jerusalem and everything about Judaism would be ruined in his generation and you don't see the significance of that, haven't you turned Christ into a fable or a space-case who jumps X000 years into the future any given moment when he is speaking?

You are new here. I have several posts about how historical interp and futurist interp are %s of each other. If you believe the virgin birth prophecy, and I do, then you are at least 1% historical.

Calm down, do some reading, know who you are speaking to.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually the counter question for you is more devastating: if he said the city of Jerusalem and everything about Judaism would be ruined in his generation and you don't see the significance of that, haven't you turned Christ into a fable or a space-case who jumps X000 years into the future any given moment when he is speaking?

You are new here. I have several posts about how historical interp and futurist interp are %s of each other. If you believe the virgin birth prophecy, and I do, then you are at least 1% historical.

Calm down, do some reading, know who you are speaking to.

Exactly. That is one the many reasons the apostate Jews of today don't believe Jesus was their Messiah

Here was an interesting thread where Jews could respond on:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426896/#post53803919

A Question For Jews

Without animal sacrifice, how do Jews atone for sins?

There really is no widespread view. To many Jews, Jesus plays absolutely no part in their lives. Christians do, since Jews generally live among Christians, but Jesus is as important to Jews as the Easter bunny.
Giving the Gospels the benefit of doubt that Jesus existed, which I do even though there's very little evidence outside of the Gospels that he did, Jesus seemed to believe that the end of the World was happening very soon, and that people needed to prepare for it. That seems interesting to me, but it is wrong. It's been 2000 years and the world still seems to be here.
Where else could I get the information from? There are no contemporary sources that speak about Jesus at all. I also don't believe that the Jewish people conspired to kill him. I think the Gospels were written deliberately to make the Jews the bad guys and the Romans appear innocent so that the message would spread easier to the Romans. By the time the Gospels were written, it was already clear that most Jews weren't buying into Jesus, and there was the Jewish revolt, so it was in the best interest for Christians to distance themselves.

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[Interplanner]

To b&wpac4,
The amount of material in the NT that shows Christ speaking to the impending doom of Jerusalem, and the weight of it, should give you some idea of how involved he was with his generation. The original belief was that the world would end right after that event, however, there was an allowance that the Father only would decide the end of the world. That appears to wedge between 2 persons of the Christian Trinity belief, yet, it is a quote of him about the issue, and as you know, the world did not end, so the allowance option has been exercised.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Exactly. That is one the many reasons the apostate Jews of today don't believe Jesus was their Messiah
.

Romans details exactly why the Jews dont believe.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Why is the Jews unbelief a good thing?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Are you merciful towards the Jews who dont believe, or do you condemn them?

know who you are speaking to.

lol, and who exactly am I speaking to? Are you God?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Exactly. That is one the many reasons the apostate Jews of today don't believe Jesus was their Messiah
​

Romans details exactly why the Jews dont believe.

We could help 'em out if we can prove to them Jesus did fulfill everything for them.....so Christianity has only itself to blame for their blindness.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matthew 23:
2 saying "upon the Seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees
38 Behold! left to ye desolate the House of ye
John 8:44
"Ye are out of a father the devil and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing".

Reve 2:13
I am aware of the works of thee and where thou are dwelling, the-where the Throne of the Satan/Adversary and thou are holding the Name of Me and not disown the faith of Me,
even in the days in which of Antipas, the witness of Me, the faithful, who was killed beside ye the-where the Satan is dwelling.

Reve 16:10
And the fifth *Messenger* poured out His bowl upon the throne of the beast and became the kingdom of it having been darkened and they *gnawed their tongues out of the misery.



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[OneAccordRM]

We could help 'em out if we can prove to them Jesus did fulfill everything for them.....so Christianity has only itself to blame for their blindness.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in?

As much as we want them to come to Christ, Gods plan is perfect, and thus must be fulfilled according to scripture before the Jews can come to Christ.

Daniels prophecy must be fulfilled.


The unbelieving Jews wont be begging for Christ until Daniels final week is well on its way to fulfillment.

All the nations must gather to battle Israel, as it is written.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Danoh]

Actually the counter question for you is more devastating: if he said the city of Jerusalem and everything about Judaism would be ruined in his generation and you don't see the significance of that, haven't you turned Christ into a fable or a space-case who jumps X000 years into the future any given moment when he is speaking?

You are new here. I have several posts about how historical interp and futurist interp are %s of each other. If you believe the virgin birth prophecy, and I do, then you are at least 1% historical.

Calm down, do some reading, know who you are speaking to.

Interplanter, do you even see how ridiculous that is?

I'm sorry, but, at the risk of offending you, your "40+ years" buried in commentaries supposedly "Bible based" is exactly why you are unable to reason Scripture itself, let alone how puffed up said "commentaries" based reasoning has made you.

Yours is the worst piece of advice anyone could receive as to how to approach the task of how to understand the Bible.

All that can result in is the foolishness of agreeing with things "because it makes sense to me" not to leave, the greater fool that years in it in that way, results in.

Hopefully, at least some will opt for, "no thanks, what saith the Scripture itself as to how to understand its way, is far more than enough for me, all the rest, a far secondary to that.

 

[Interplanner]

Unless you have a specific, I have no idea what you are saying. Jn 12:34?

I'm at the conclusions I'm at precisely by studying on a master's level why Luke-Acts relates to the Jewish War of 66+, and because I was raised by people incessantly predicting the next soundbyte of Zech to happen on the 6:00 news. All to be redone in a week or a year. Ad nauseum.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I'm at the conclusions I'm at precisely by studying on a master's leve

 

[parousia70]

Are you referring to the Jews in Israel today?

Those decended from the Jews pre 70ad.

Name one Jew alive today who can trace their lineage to ANY pre desolation Hebrew person.


Just one will do.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Name one Jew alive today who can trace their lineage to ANY pre desolation Hebrew person.
Just one will do.

Why would that matter? Is Gods word not good enough?

Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.


Has Gods prophecy been fulfilled or not?

 

[parousia70]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in?

Yes. Without question.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

Claiming that the scriptural term fulness of the gentiles means full number of gentiles is purely an invention from man made traditions and is not grounded at all in the scriptural precedent for the use of the term.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.