amillennialism?

[Dave Taylor]

Dave,

OK then, so we're on the same page so to speak with Revelation 19 and 2 Thess 2 being future.. ie, the coming of the Lord.

SO, if the beast and the false prophet are taken at the Lord's coming as described in Rev 19, then that obviously shows us that they're future realities.. agreed..?

Again, the beast and the false prophet must be future realities, as we see them taken and cast into a lake of fire at the Lord's coming..

THEN, Revelation 20 speaks of satan being bound for a thousand years so that he can not deceive the nations.. BUT.. it was the dragon (Satan) who gave the beast his power, his seat, and great authority according to Revelation 13..

AND, furthermore.. we read in Rev 20 that after the thousand years are ended, satan is released for a time and that he deceives the nations and gathers them together, and it says that they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints.. and that fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them..

Then, here's what I consider the important part.. it then says that the devil that decived them was cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet ARE..

So, how can we consider something like Rev 20 to be taking place NOW when it speaks of casting the devil into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, if the beast and the false prophet are not in the lake of fire yet.. ? ie, they are not cast there until the Lord comes as we see in Rev 19..

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this..

Check any greek lexicon. [Are] is a translational addition.

It leads the reading of the sentence to sound as if the devil is cast into the fire 1000 years after the B & FP were cast in there.

They all three are cast into the fire the same day; the Day of Christ's return.

C19 doesn't mention Satan.
C20 doesn't mention the B & FP.

Perhaps Isaiah's account of the 2nd Coming will help....

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

 

[ETide]

Check any greek lexicon. [Are] is a translational addition.

It leads the reading of the sentence to sound as if the devil is cast into the fire 1000 years after the B & FP were cast in there.

They all three are cast into the fire the same day; the Day of Christ's return.

C19 doesn't mention Satan.
C20 doesn't mention the B & FP.

Perhaps Isaiah's account of the 2nd Coming will help....

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Dave,

OK, so you're basically saying that the event described in Rev 19 where the beast and the false prophet are taken alive and cast into the lake of fire is the same event as that of Satan being cast into the lake of fire.. or, as you put it.. it's the same Day.. the day of the Lord..

So, you agree that the casting of these three is a future event, but that the events described prior in Rev 20 are presently taking place.. ie, satan is bound, the first resurrection, and the reign of Christ..

Although you would believe that Christ is reigning in heaven right now, and not on the earth.. correct..?

Although that's not what I see in Rev 20.. because Rev 19 describes the Lord coming to the earth (as other NT scriptures affirm) and that the events describing Satan's release, deception, and gathering of the nations, reveal that he went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the saints.. that beloved city.. where might that be in your opinion..?

So anyway, that's strange to me..

You also mention that the B and the FP are not mentioned in Rev 20, although they are mentioned. IT clearly says that those who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years had not worshipped the beast (future), that they had not received his mark, and that they were beheaded (ie, killed) for their testimony of Jesus.

So, the beast and the false prophet (who we know are future) are mentioned clearly in Rev 20.. during events that you would suggest are taking place now.. ie, the scripture is saying that they had not worshipped something that we know is future in the context..

Anyway.. I'm ramblin.. although I'm tryin to figure out how this all works out for you.

AND, it's great to mention the DAY OF THE LORD in the OT as this topic is all over the scriptures.. Peter says that we should not be ignorant of this one thing.. that a DAY with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.. ie, the DAY of the Lord is a thousand years.. this is why we have many diverse scriptures which speak of it in many interesting ways..

So, let me post a couple of other OT verses from right around where you took the Isaiah passages.. first, back a little in chapter 24..

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Sort of sounds like the binding of Satan there..

Now, the beginning of chapter 26..

In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

A song in Judah.. what's that about..?

How about these verses concerning the Day of the Lord taken from the other prophets..

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

There are literally dozens of verses in the prophets concerning the DAY OF THE LORD, and it's perfectly clear in the NT that this DAY, ie, the DAY OF THE LORD, is forthcoming..

The verse in Zech is interesting in that it speaks of that day comprising seasons.. ie, summer and winter.. interesting isn't it..

 

[Dave Taylor]

Dave,
OK, so you're basically saying that the event described in Rev 19 where the beast and the false prophet are taken alive and cast into the lake of fire is the same event as that of Satan being cast into the lake of fire.. or, as you put it.. it's the same Day.. the day of the Lord..

Yes.

So, you agree that the casting of these three is a future event, but that the events described prior in Rev 20 are presently taking place.. ie, satan is bound, the first resurrection, and the reign of Christ..

Yes, Christ's reign is eternal and is well underway.

Yes, Christ bound Satan from deceiving the Gentiles from being able to come to Him at His 1st Advent.

Yes, I see John's use of the '1st Resurrection' as describing the spiritual rebirth experience....just like I see John's use of the '2nd Death' as meaning spiritual death or eternal separation from God; not a 2nd physical death. While I would also say, there are many, many passages in the Scripures which describe the future physical resurrection (of our bodies), I don't believe that is what John is describing with the terms 'First Resurrection' or 'Second Death'.

John describes the physical resurrect of our bodies in Revelation 20:12 (as well as 11:18, and indirectly in 19:7...and the result thereof in 7:9+ and 21-22.

Although you would believe that Christ is reigning in heaven right now, and not on the earth.. correct..?

Christ isn't physically located on the Earth; yet He reigns in the hearts and lives of His sheep who are living down here.

Although that's not what I see in Rev 20.. because Rev 19 describes the Lord coming to the earth (as other NT scriptures affirm)

I agree.

and that the events describing Satan's release, deception, and gathering of the nations, reveal that he went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the saints.. that beloved city.. where might that be in your opinion..?

I see Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 showing similar views of the same event. (Just like I see Revelation 6 and 11 and 14 and 16 also doing so).

Satan gathering the nations is the final rebellion leading up to Christ's return, and Satan's minion's compassing the saints that beloved city, is a picture of the world as it fights to surround and subdue God's people. The 'beloved city' is a idiom used to describe God's people IMO.

So anyway, that's strange to me..

What part is strange? I'm not sure I got that clearly...

You also mention that the B and the FP are not mentioned in Rev 20, although they are mentioned. IT clearly says that those who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years had not worshipped the beast (future), that they had not received his mark, and that they were beheaded (ie, killed) for their testimony of Jesus.

I thought I mentioned this before....maybe not; anyway, I see this picture of the martyrs being descriptive of all maytrs of Christ, from Stephen and Antipas and John the Baptist in the 1st century AD; forward to include all the marytrs throughout the centuries.

I don't see any biblical evidence that they are only a handful or subset of martyrs who live during the final 7 years prior to the 2nd Advent as is popularized.

Stephen didn't worship the beast, and was stone.
John the Baptist didn't worship the beast, and was beheaded. They both are now reigning with Christ.
They loved not their lives unto death.
etc...etc...

So, the beast and the false prophet (who we know are future) are mentioned clearly in Rev 20.. during events that you would suggest are taking place now.. ie, the scripture is saying that they had not worshipped something that we know is future in the context..

I'm not sure what the 'something that we know is future' part is....

To better break down Revelation 20, let me do this.

I see Rev 20:1-3 as spanning the intra-advent period.
I see Rev 20:4-8 as spanning the intra-advent period.
I see Reve 20:9-15 as focusing on the 2nd Advent, and the resurrection and the final judgment.

Anyway.. I'm ramblin.. although I'm tryin to figure out how this all works out for you.

You're not rambling...Revelation is a difficult book to study, because of its style and design....it forces the reader to study alot of other scriptures outside of Revelation to even begin to have a sound approach at understanding and interpretting it. It isn't a book one can rush through and get a firm answer.

AND, it's great to mention the DAY OF THE LORD in the OT as this topic is all over the scriptures.. Peter says that we should not be ignorant of this one thing.. that a DAY with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.. ie, the DAY of the Lord is a thousand years..

Actually this premise is taking the idiom farther than it is given to us. Nowehere is the Day of the Lord defined as being a lengthy, unnatural series of 365,000 days.

What Peter is doing, is first and foremost, quoting from the Psalms.

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

Peter is doing nothing more than reminding the reader that God Himself is 'outside of time' and the way we interpret time....the delay, the seemingly impatient wait, the day, after day after day of it....is not measured that same way in God's view and perspective.

To God, who knows everything, forwards and backwards...and at the same time, there really is no difference in 1 day, verses 365,000 days. He knows them all equally (unlike us).

We should not take this idiom as a license to attempt to define the phrase, "The Day of the Lord" as a 365,000 series of days. IMO.

this is why we have many diverse scriptures which speak of it in many interesting ways..

So, let me post a couple of other OT verses from right around where you took the Isaiah passages.. first, back a little in chapter 24..

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Sort of sounds like the binding of Satan there..

Except Satan isn't mentioned in that passage. What it sound like to me, is that the wicked, who have been dying at various times and are awaiting their judgment, will not be forgotten, but when 'that day' arrives, they will be visited and their final judgment will occur.

Remember the rich guy that Jesus talked about in Luke 16? He was gathered by the angels and taken to the great pit (abyss) at the time of his death. This process has been going on throughout time, with countless wicked people....but on 'that day' the day of the Lord, they will be visited and finally judged and cast to their eternal abode.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Now, the beginning of Isaiah chapter 26..
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

A song in Judah.. what's that about..?

The beginning of Isaiah chapter 26 sounds like some of what John used to reference when talking about the New Jerusalem....singing songs, a strong city, walls of salvation, gates open to the righteous to enter in, a place of peace, a place where the inhabitants trust in the Lord forever, and the place of everlasting strength, etc....

Isaiah is sometimes difficult, as well, because he jumps around alot....sometimes he is giving heavenly visions, sometimes endtime visions, sometimes Messianic 1st advent visions, sometime near-term Babylonian Captivity visions, etc....Isaiah gives us a hodgepodge of visions that he often jumps from one to the other....and I believe, it is tantamount that our key to understanding them (especially the future ones) involves understanding them in light of the keys given to us from the New Testament.

Take for example the few verses prior to 26:1 and the song of Judah....Isaiah has been talking about the resurrection; where the sting of death is ended (the same passage Paul quotes in I Corinthians 15:54) and where there will be no more tears (where John quotes in Revelation 21:4).

How about these verses concerning the Day of the Lord taken from the other prophets..

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Sometimes, when 'that day' is being focused upon in the OT, they are talking about near-term events, and Messianic events.

The New Testament tells me this verse above fulfilled during Jesus' earthly sojourn.

John 4:10 "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 7:37 "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. "

I can't find any passage in the Bible that gives a more direct fulfillment of the Zechariah passage about the outflowing of the living waters, than John 4 and John 7's description of what Jesus has provided.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Again, I see this fulfillment at Calvary. Christ became the great victor. He wore the scarlet robe of monarchy, He wore the crown of the King of all Kings, He was given the epitath of being the King, and when He was placed on the cross between Heaven and Earth, He fulfilled His own prophecy which stated: "if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Wasn't Jesus the fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9?
Matthew 21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. "

What about Luke's passage?
Luke 19:37 "And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. "

There are literally dozens of verses in the prophets concerning the DAY OF THE LORD, and it's perfectly clear in the NT that this DAY, ie, the DAY OF THE LORD, is forthcoming..

I agree that when the NT talks about the Day of the Lord, it is forthcoming....but when the NT talks about it, it is talking about the 2nd Coming.

In the OT, not all mentions of 'the Day of the Lord' are always about the 2nd Coming.

Sometimes that phrase is used to describe judgment or battle that is about to occur locally; whether with the Assyrians, or the Babylonians, or the Romans. Sometimes it refers to the 1st Advent of Jesus. The OT's useage of the term must be more carefully examined to see what it's intent and context is...we can usually generally say in the NT, and be safe to make the generalization that 'The Day of the Lord' (of God, of Christ, etc...' is talking about the 2nd Coming. This just isn't always the case in the OT.

Here is just one example. If you take the single verse that the phrase DOTL is used in out of context, you could say it is a 2nd Coming verse. But, if you examine the entire context of the passage, it is talking about the war and battles that are going on between King Pharoahnecho of Egypt and Nebechadnezzar of Babylon, and Jeremiah and his people who are caught in the middle. It even gives the exact date of 'this' Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 46:1 "The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles; Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. Order ye the buckler and shield, and draw near to battle. Harness the horses; and get up, ye horsemen, and stand forth with your helmets; furbish the spears, and put on the brigandines. Wherefore have I seen them dismayed and turned away back? and their mighty ones are beaten down, and are fled apace, and look not back: for fear was round about, saith the LORD. Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates. Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers? Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof. Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow. For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates. Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured. The nations have heard of thy shame, and thy cry hath filled the land: for the mighty man hath stumbled against the mighty, and they are fallen both together. The word that the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt. "

See what I mean?

Ezekiel describes the exact same time-frame, where Babylon and Nebechadnezzar conquers Egypt, a localized, historical 'Day of the Lord'...not the 2nd Coming.

Ezekiel 29:19 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD. In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD. The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.'

The verse in Zech is interesting in that it speaks of that day comprising seasons.. ie, summer and winter.. interesting isn't it..

Sure it does...because when Jesus came and offered the true living waters, they were not solely available in the day He was journing through Samaria (ei: May 4th, 32AD)....no, His living waters were made available that Spring, the upcoming Summer, followed by Autumn and Winter....of that year, and all years forever more to come....to whosever would partake of them.

What better way, to conclude the Bible....than reminding the reader, one final time of this gift that is available until He comes.....

Revelation 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

 

[ETide]

Yes, Christ's reign is eternal and is well underway.

I'd suggest that all things are not yet put under Him as Hebrews reminds us.. and that He is seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high, waiting til His enemies be made His footstool.

Yes, Christ bound Satan from deceiving the Gentiles from being able to come to Him at His 1st Advent.

I'm not sure if I know what you mean here.. God's people have always been justified by faith, even Able was justified by faith, before there ever was Jew or Gentile division. AND, even afterward, we're told of Gentiles being made righteous through faith.. Rahab the harlot.. the men of Nineveh will rise up in judgment as they repented at the preaching of Jonah.. the Queen of south will rise up in the judgment because she came from afar to hear the wisdom of Solomon etc etc..

Now, I wouldn't claim to understand all of the dealings with God through the ages, although I'd say that the scriptures give us plenty of examples concerning Gentiles being justified before Christ.

I had also asked why it is that Paul would ask believers to put on the full armour of God if Satan was bound.. For unbelievers it's even worse.. Paul says that he is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. Paul also writes in Timothy how that satan takes men captive at his will.. ? The religions of the world are full of deception.. etc etc etc.. I'd like to hear your thoughts on these things with respect to satan supposedly being bound.

Yes, I see John's use of the '1st Resurrection' as describing the spiritual rebirth experience....just like I see John's use of the '2nd Death' as meaning spiritual death or eternal separation from God; not a 2nd physical death. While I would also say, there are many, many passages in the Scripures which describe the future physical resurrection (of our bodies), I don't believe that is what John is describing with the terms 'First Resurrection' or 'Second Death'.

The text uses pretty strong language here.. ie, they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus.. They had not worshipped the beast or his image.. etc.. and Rev 13 explains that these were killed, who would not worship him.. I see absolutely no context of a spiritual birth in the passages of Rev 20.

John describes the physical resurrect of our bodies in Revelation 20:12 (as well as 11:18, and indirectly in 19:7...and the result thereof in 7:9+ and 21-22.

So those who were beheaded don't qualify in your mind as a physical resurrection ?

Christ isn't physically located on the Earth; yet He reigns in the hearts and lives of His sheep who are living down here.

Rev 11 says that the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. after the woes and judgments.. any thoughts on this..?

As for Christ reigning in the hearts of believers down here.. I can understand that concept, although Paul was careful to rebuke the Corinthians who thought that they were reigning already so to speak.. Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Satan gathering the nations is the final rebellion leading up to Christ's return, and Satan's minion's compassing the saints that beloved city, is a picture of the world as it fights to surround and subdue God's people. The 'beloved city' is a idiom used to describe God's people IMO.

I was trying to point out the distinctions between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. In Rev 19 John sees Christ coming with His saints (Jude describes this also) in judgment against the beast and false prophet.. in Rev 20 we see satan gathering the world against a camp of the saints, ie, they went up on the breath of the earth.. they seem very different to me.. not the same event.

What part is strange? I'm not sure I got that clearly...

What I find strange is that we agree that the beast and the false prophet are future events, along with satan being cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.. but that the other events described in Rev 20 pertain to the present.. even though these events mention people that had not worshipped the beast or his image.. who were beheaded (ie killed) for their testimony, imo, by the beast who we agree is future.. Rev 13 affirms that if anyone would not worship the beast, they would be killed.

I don't see any biblical evidence that they are only a handful or subset of martyrs who live during the final 7 years prior to the 2nd Advent as is popularized.

Rev 12 speaks of the woman being prepared a place in the wilderness.. for 1260 days, or 3.5 years.. I believe that these are taken through the tribulation, as Luke 12:36 speaks of waiting for the return of the Lord from the wedding.. a wedding we read of in Rev 19..

BUT.. Rev also speaks of a multitude of people in heaven and that they should wait for their brethren.. they were crying out for vengeance.. and are told to wait a little while longer..

Stephen didn't worship the beast, and was stone.
John the Baptist didn't worship the beast, and was beheaded. They both are now reigning with Christ.
They loved not their lives unto death.
etc...etc...

I don't recall any visions of saints reigning in heaven with Christ.. I do recall hearing the song of those in Revelation 5 saying that they shall reign on the earth..

Actually this premise is taking the idiom farther than it is given to us. Nowehere is the Day of the Lord defined as being a lengthy, unnatural series of 365,000 days.

Well, I wouldn't say 'nowhere', Rev 20 mentions a thousand years six times.. and Peter speaks of the Day of the Lord in the context of a thousand years being as one day, and more importantly that we should not be ignorant of that one thing..

What Peter is doing, is first and foremost, quoting from the Psalms.

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

Peter is doing nothing more than reminding the reader that God Himself is 'outside of time' and the way we interpret time....the delay, the seemingly impatient wait, the day, after day after day of it....is not measured that same way in God's view and perspective.

To God, who knows everything, forwards and backwards...and at the same time, there really is no difference in 1 day, verses 365,000 days. He knows them all equally (unlike us).

We should not take this idiom as a license to attempt to define the phrase, "The Day of the Lord" as a 365,000 series of days. IMO.

The context of 2 Peter 3 is the last days and the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.

Except Satan isn't mentioned in that passage. What it sound like to me, is that the wicked, who have been dying at various times and are awaiting their judgment, will not be forgotten, but when 'that day' arrives, they will be visited and their final judgment will occur.

Although the scripture says "in that day", not prior to that day..

Remember the rich guy that Jesus talked about in Luke 16? He was gathered by the angels and taken to the great pit (abyss) at the time of his death. This process has been going on throughout time, with countless wicked people....but on 'that day' the day of the Lord, they will be visited and finally judged and cast to their eternal abode.

No doubt that hell exists now, and we know that even it will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ETide]

I'll need to digest your latter post Dave, much there to read..

 

[Dave Taylor]

I'd suggest that all things are not yet put under Him as Hebrews reminds us.. and that He is seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high, waiting til His enemies be made His footstool.

I Agree,
But I would not postpone the start of His reign.

Look at the refence you made above, in its full context....

Ephesians 1:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. "

That's all past-tense that were present reality when Ephesians was written, ETide, not postponed expectations of things to yet occur.

I'm not sure if I know what you mean here.. God's people have always been justified by faith, even Able was justified by faith, before there ever was Jew or Gentile division. AND, even afterward, we're told of Gentiles being made righteous through faith.. Rahab the harlot.. the men of Nineveh will rise up in judgment as they repented at the preaching of Jonah.. the Queen of south will rise up in the judgment because she came from afar to hear the wisdom of Solomon etc etc..

Now, I wouldn't claim to understand all of the dealings with God through the ages, although I'd say that the scriptures give us plenty of examples concerning Gentiles being justified before Christ.

I would agree...but the Gentiles em-masse, were pagan. They were not following the true God. If you examine the scriptures, there are only a handful of Gentiles mentioned prior to Calvary.

You mention the few listed pre-Israel patriarchs, Rahab, Ninevah...and you could add Ruth and a handful of others.

But mostly, the Gentile nations were in darkness, following after false gods.

Satan had them deceived.
Christ came, and kicked Satan's butt.
Then Satan was no allowed to keep them blinded en-masse.

Billions of Gentiles have come to Christ since Calvary.

I had also asked why it is that Paul would ask believers to put on the full armour of God if Satan was bound.. For unbelievers it's even worse.. Paul says that he is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. Paul also writes in Timothy how that satan takes men captive at his will.. ? The religions of the world are full of deception.. etc etc etc.. I'd like to hear your thoughts on these things with respect to satan supposedly being bound.

I agree with you. Christ didn't end Satan at the cross. If so, the things you mention would have been complete. Christ however, brought the opportunity to the Gentile nations to 'put on that whole armor of God' and to receive the message, and Satan could do nothing to stop it.

Satan deceives and misleads those who are his, not those who are Christs...and those who Christ draws.

The false religions of the world are a testament to how much Jesus is needed and that we should remain close to Him and that He has all power, and without Him we can do nothing to stop the Devil.

The text uses pretty strong language here.. ie, they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus.. They had not worshipped the beast or his image.. etc.. and Rev 13 explains that these were killed, who would not worship him.. I see absolutely no context of a spiritual birth in the passages of Rev 20.

What John is saying, is that even physical death, cannot triumph over a saint who is born-again. Even in death, we have the victory. What was the last thing Stephen saw and said before he was stoned to death?

"I have the victory through Christ Jesus my savior"!!! Well actually, he said He saw Jesus in power and glory standing at the right hand of the Father....but the point is the same....even mayrtdom cannot defeat those who are born -again in Christ.

John is saying no different...but John goes a step farther and explains that the First Resurrection is what is the only thing that preserves us from the 2nd Death.

Nowhere does Revelation or any other passage teach that the 2nd Death is a '2nd Ressurrection'....

Look at it this way.
Every person is born at least once, and dies once Physically.

Those without Christ, however, are never born again. So they will die twice; once physically at their natural death, and again spiritually at the final judgment when they are cast out for eternity.

Christians, though, are born-twice, once mortally, and again through Christ immortally; and they will only die once...and will never partake of the 2nd Death.

Paul addresses this to some degree when he said, "Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. "

But Paul isn't talking about a phyiscal resurrection we partake of when we walk in newness of life.

II Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Physical resurrection isn't the focus here either.

Galatians 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. "

Nor here.

So I believe John is making the same type of references in Revelation 20:1-6.....no different that when John spoke similar words to Nicodemus in John chapter 3 about being born-again a second time.

"3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "

Later John actually distinguishes between the spiritual resurrection and the physical resurrection.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

By the time John wrote Revelation, he had already distinguished in his earlier gospel between the spiritual resurrection to life of only a believer; contrasted to the physical resurrection that all who are in the graves would participate in.

Again, Jesus made that same contrast to Martha in chapter 11.

John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? "

The blue part could not be talking about physical mortal death, but spiritual death...and how that is avoided by being first raised to newness of living life, quicked by the spirit; prior to natural death.


One other thing I would bring up for your consideration.

If you have spent any time studying the underlying greek of that Rev 20 passage, you know that John wrote of the "Protos Anastasis". (1st Resurrection).

The Greek LXX never uses that phrase.
The Greek NT outside of chapter 20 never uses that phrase....

except one time. It's relevance is quite revealing IMO.

Acts 26 tells us that Christ Himself is "The Protos Anastasis".


Acts 26:23 "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the "The Protos Anastasis", and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Jesus is Himself the "First Resurrection". Jesus is what gives life to avoid the "Second Death".

Now go and re-read Revelation 20:1-6 in light of those passages.
See if you can see John's intent being something different than what you first thought.

 

[Dave Taylor]

So those who were beheaded don't qualify in your mind as a physical resurrection ?

No, they compromise all of the people throughout all ages who are maryted for Jesus.

At the 2nd Coming, they will all participate in the bodily resurrection Jesus taught about in John 29 because they participated in the spiritual resurrection Jesus taught about in John 5:25.

Rev 11 says that the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. after the woes and judgments.. any thoughts on this..?

I agree. The Earth will become perfect, and the curse upon the Earth (per Romans 8) will be removed.

As Matthew 13 states, the wicked will be severed from among the just; and "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

There won't be any sinners left in THIS WORLD!
Amen!

As for Christ reigning in the hearts of believers down here.. I can understand that concept, although Paul was careful to rebuke the Corinthians who thought that they were reigning already so to speak.. Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

But when Paul and Apollos were talking about how they had reigned before them, he was contrasting their prior importance on riches in verses 5-7, showing that they should not be puffed up or judgmental based on their earthly treasures and appearance of reigning over others, but they should forgoe all of that, and let Christ reign through them, so that earthly things are not really important.

I was trying to point out the distinctions between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. In Rev 19 John sees Christ coming with His saints (Jude describes this also) in judgment against the beast and false prophet..

Sure....not all aspects of the 2nd Coming are mentioned in any specific passage.....they are intermingled throughout alot of passages. If that were so, we could just go look at the 2nd Coming passage that describes everything exactly as it will be as it was recorded in the 3rd chapter of Hezekiah, and not have to spend so much time studying the bible to figure it out like we have to do; since there is no 3rd Hezekiah 2nd Coming passage.

Revelation 19 doesn't mention directly the resurrection; but we know it occurs at the 2nd Coming.

in Rev 20 we see satan gathering the world against a camp of the saints, ie, they went up on the breath of the earth.. they seem very different to me.. not the same event.

But what if you look at other 2nd Coming passages that do show the wicked being gathered and destroyed? Do they clue us in to the fact, that this concept is one of the events that will occur when Christ is revealed? What about 2 Thess 2:3-10? It shows both. What about 1 Thess 5? It shows both. What about Matthew 13? It shows both 3 times.

What I find strange is that we agree that the beast and the false prophet are future events, along with satan being cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.. but that the other events described in Rev 20 pertain to the present.. even though these events mention people that had not worshipped the beast or his image.. who were beheaded (ie killed) for their testimony, imo, by the beast who we agree is future.. Rev 13 affirms that if anyone would not worship the beast, they would be killed.

When you consider all of chapter 19 to be pretty much an endtime view; wherease chapter 20 contains a panorama view of history (kinda like chapter 12), then it isn't that difficult to reconcile.

Think of chapter 20 as a post-lude wrap-up summary that brings all past, present, and future together in one picture.

Rev 12 speaks of the woman being prepared a place in the wilderness.. for 1260 days, or 3.5 years.. I believe that these are taken through the tribulation, as Luke 12:36 speaks of waiting for the return of the Lord from the wedding.. a wedding we read of in Rev 19..

I see the wedding as ongoing, and being added to each day and each hour another person joins the bride....Jesus doesn't return, until the bride is completed....or as Rev 19 says, "the wife hath made herself ready"...or in Matthew 25 when it is the midnight hour, and the groom returns to be married to the bride.

BUT.. Rev also speaks of a multitude of people in heaven and that they should wait for their brethren.. they were crying out for vengeance.. and are told to wait a little while longer..

I see that present multitude containing folks like Stephen, and Antipas, and John the Baptist, and Paul, and Peter....who have died and are awaiting the 2nd Coming...and are awaiting more of their brethren to come into the fold.

I don't recall any visions of saints reigning in heaven with Christ.. I do recall hearing the song of those in Revelation 5 saying that they shall reign on the earth..

I agree the saints shall reign on the Earth....when Christ gets here, how about you, me, and Bartholemew taking a vacation cruise down the Jordan River?

Well, I wouldn't say 'nowhere', Rev 20 mentions a thousand years six times.. and Peter speaks of the Day of the Lord in the context of a thousand years being as one day, and more importantly that we should not be ignorant of that one thing..

But I can't find where anyone says, "The Day of the Lord lasts 365,000 days"....funny how some things like 'day of the Lord' aren't taken literal at the decry of things like 'a thousand years' must be taken literal. Seems inconsistent sometimes between both groups.

The context of 2 Peter 3 is the last days and the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.

I agree.

No doubt that hell exists now, and we know that even it will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire.

I agree.

 

[ETide]

Dave,

I think that I have your thoughts basically as this..

You believe that Revelation 19 speaks of future with the Lord coming in judgment.. but then that Rev 20 looks back at how we were born again, as you equate that with the first resurrection.. <right?> and then the latter part of Rev 20 which speaks of satan also being cast into the lake of fire as future, even the same time as when the beast and false prophet were taken..

So, let me ask you this..

When is our physical resurrection, ie, what Paul refers to as the manifestation of the sons of God, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..

When is that ?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Dave,

I think that I have your thoughts basically as this..

You believe that Revelation 19 speaks of future with the Lord coming in judgment.. but then that Rev 20 looks back at how we were born again, as you equate that with the first resurrection.. <right?> and then the latter part of Rev 20 which speaks of satan also being cast into the lake of fire as future, even the same time as when the beast and false prophet were taken..

So, let me ask you this..

When is our physical resurrection, ie, what Paul refers to as the manifestation of the sons of God, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..

When is that ?

The Physical Resurrection of our bodies is:
At the 2nd Coming on the last Day in the final hour.

John 5:29
John 6:39-40
Luke 14:14
Acts 24:15
I Corinthians 15:20-54
Job 14:12
Job 19:25
Isaiah 25:8
Isaiah 26:19
Daniel 12:3
Romans 8:23
I Thess 4:17
Revelation 11:18
Revelation 19:7 (indirect)
Revelation 20:12

Whew....that's alot of passages from the Bible that speak of the future bodily resurrection of mankind.

 

[ETide]

The Physical Resurrection of our bodies is:
At the 2nd Coming on the last Day in the final hour.

John 5:29
John 6:39-40
Luke 14:14
Acts 24:15
I Corinthians 15:20-54
Job 14:12
Job 19:25
Isaiah 25:8
Isaiah 26:19
Daniel 12:3
Romans 8:23
I Thess 4:17
Revelation 11:18
Revelation 19:7 (indirect)
Revelation 20:12

Whew....that's alot of passages from the Bible that speak of the future bodily resurrection of mankind.

So that's why I struggle understanding Rev 20 in the amillennial point of view..

A literal and physical resurrection will take place when the Lord comes..

He comes in Rev 19 and then in Rev 20 is said to reign for a thousand years with beheaded individuals who had not worshipped the beast, ie, a beast who we're told kills those that will not worship him..

But that can't be viewed as physical, but must be interpreted as when Christians are born again..? ?

To me, it's a massive disconnect from the context.

The context is severe judgment, as all of Revelation is.. His coming in judgment, and we know His coming is also associated with the resurrection of the dead.. but, the amillennialist can not interpret the first resurrection as a physical resurrection.. it must be associated with being born again, even though that has been explained through the epistles in many different ways..

It's simply disconnected from the entire context.. and I do not understand why it can't be interpreted exactly as it is written..

AND, I don't see it as a literal chain binding Satan so that he can not deceive the nations.. but that the symbolism results in a literal binding of Satan so that the nations are not deceived during that time..

Oh well, enough for now..

 

[Virgil the Roman]

that makes sense. is that your own personal interpretation?, or is that what some churches teach?

 

[ETide]

that makes sense. is that your own personal interpretation?, or is that what some churches teach?

What makes sense..?

Perhaps you should try to make this a little more clear.. ie, what are you speaking about that makes sense.. and who are you addressing in your question ?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

So that's why I struggle understanding Rev 20 in the amillennial point of view..

A literal and physical resurrection will take place when the Lord comes..

He comes in Rev 19 and then in Rev 20 is said to reign for a thousand years with beheaded individuals who had not worshipped the beast, ie, a beast who we're told kills those that will not worship him..

But that can't be viewed as physical, but must be interpreted as when Christians are born again..? ?

To me, it's a massive disconnect from the context.

The context is severe judgment, as all of Revelation is.. His coming in judgment, and we know His coming is also associated with the resurrection of the dead.. but, the amillennialist can not interpret the first resurrection as a physical resurrection.. it must be associated with being born again, even though that has been explained through the epistles in many different ways..

It's simply disconnected from the entire context.. and I do not understand why it can't be interpreted exactly as it is written..

AND, I don't see it as a literal chain binding Satan so that he can not deceive the nations.. but that the symbolism results in a literal binding of Satan so that the nations are not deceived during that time..

Oh well, enough for now..

your view of the more symbolic nature of Revelation is, as you view to be in line with the view of Ammilenianism.

 

[ETide]

your view of the more symbolic nature of Revelation is, as you view to be in line with the view of Ammilenianism.

You may have misunderstood the view that I have.. because it's not amillennialism that I agree with, but rather the millennial view.. which is a literal future thousand year reign of Christ with resurrected saints.. and satan being bound at that time..

Satan is not bound at this time.. he is the prince of the power of the air (according to Eph 2), the spirit that NOW works in the children of disobedience. He is the god of this world who blinds the minds of those that believe not the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

Even believers are required to put on the full armour of GOD to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against spiritual wickedness in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this world..

As far as the symbolism goes.. it is used in scripture to illustrate a reality.. so, simply because it says that satan will be bound by a large chain, this does not mandate that it literally is a large chain that binds him, although it certainly indicates that he is bound and unable to deceive the nations at that time.

Take another example of symbolism in the scriptures.. Jesus Christ is said to be the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.. so does that absolutely need to mean that He is a young Lamb (ie, an animal).. NO, of course not, but it does absolutely mean that He is the Father's perfect and spotless sacrifice for the sin of this world.

 

[ETide]

I also believe that there will be the remnant of Israel who are brought through the great tribulation.

These will not be resurrected saints, although they will be born again in my estimation.. this is what I believe Rev 12 is speaking to.. the woman (Israel) being with child, and fleeing Judea (Matthew 24), and having a place prepared for her in the wilderness for 1260 days or three and a half years..

The OT book of Zechariah speaks of 2/3 being purged and then the other 1/3 being taken through the fire..

This is Israel in my estimation.. not the church of God.. ie, the church of God is not the Israel of God..

AND, there will also be those who enter into the kingdom after the sheep and goats judgment as it is described in Matthew 25.. those on Christ's left will depart into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.. and those on His right will inherit the kingdom..

Revelation 19 also speaks of casting the beast and the false prophet into a lake of fire when He comes with His saints.. and 2 Thess 2 speaks of Christ destroying the man of sin with the brightness of His coming.

Matthew 25:31 tells us that the Lord will sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes.. and that this will be the judgment of the nations.. ie, the sheep and the goats.. Matthew 19 speaks of the fact that His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel at that time.. ie, when He comes..

 

[pamaris]

The righteous will be raised in the last day:

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

As the unbelievers will also be judged in the last day:

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 5:28-29 &#8220;Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.&#8221;

There is one last day, with no other days after it. Therefore this excludes a gap of 365000 days between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection/ judgement of the unrighteous.

We have to read Rev. 20 in light of clear, unambiguous texts such as these that we have in John- Jesus' own words. The fact that all will rise on the "last day" alone disproves the premillennial position.

There are other hints that the millennial kingdom is spiritual- such as the fact that Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world".

Also. the dispensational idea that there will be temple worship in this earthly kingdom "as a memorial" to God flies in the face of the entire book of Hebrews, which tells us that


Hebrews 9: 11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].


Hebrews 9: 24-26 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:12-14 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

The so called millennial temple is a side issue to whether there will be a millennium on earth. Many people believe there will be a temple, but why would we go back to types and shadows for 1000 years after a perfect sacrifice?

That's all I have to say for the moment. How can there be 1000 years after the resurrection, which occurs at the "last day"?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Also. the dispensational idea that there will be temple worship in this earthly kingdom "as a memorial" to God flies in the face of the entire book of Hebrews, which tells us that


Hebrews 9: 11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].


Hebrews 9: 24-26 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I am glad you brought this up Parnaris.

Alot of folks who have been taught there will be an additional 1000 year period of mortal existence and a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices (Pre-Mill interpretations of Zech 14:16 and Ezek 40-48); but as you say, that does 'fly in the face' of what Christ accomplised ONCE AND FOR ALL at calvary.

Even when premillennialism attempts to dilute and soften that expectation, by claiming it will be done for a 'memorial', it still flies in the face of Calvary.

Why? Because if you take Ezekiel 40-48 and interpret it literally, and apply it after the 2nd Coming, you find bulls and goats being slain for sin offerings for the people....for cleansing, sanctification, and purification.

No animal slaughter will ever bring about cleansing, sanctification, or purification AFTER calvary.

(That's what Jesus did...not animals.)

Besides, we don't need rebuilt temples made with hands and reinstituted animal sacrifices for memorials.

Those were the types and shadows, afforehand, that pointed to Christ according to the NT writings which say they:

"was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 8:9

Here is the true memorial. Not the one Premillennialism must speculate to create, which is an anathema of the cross...but the true memorial, that Jesus Christ Himself eternally established.

If you want to hold a memorial, this (and not slaughtered animals in a stone temple), is how it should be memorialized:

Luke 22:17 "And Jesus took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. "

I Corinthians 11:24 "took bread; And when Jesus had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. "


There's your memorial....
Not something involving slain animals which God hates...

Amos 5:21 "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts."

Isaiah 1:13 "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

Hosea 2:11 "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts."

 

[ETide]

The righteous will be raised in the last day:

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

As the unbelievers will also be judged in the last day:

So how long is the last day..? Is it a 24 hour day..?

What is the Last Day called in the scriptures.. ? Isn't it called the Day of Christ.. the Day of the Lord.. ? How long is a day with the Lord according to the Apostle Peter.. ? AND.. why would Peter admonish us to NOT be IGNORANT (or ignore) that one thing.. ?

We have to read Rev. 20 in light of clear, unambiguous texts such as these that we have in John- Jesus' own words. The fact that all will rise on the "last day" alone disproves the premillennial position.

I would suggest that this is because you're thinking of a DAY in our terms.. ie, 24 hours.. although will the DAY of the LORD be a 24 hour day.. ?

Christ is still building His church.. calling out a people for His name.. we're told that these need to put on the full armour of God so that they can stand against the wiles of the DEVIL.. Peter says that he roams about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour..

Paul says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against spiritual wickedness in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this world..

John tells us that the whole world lieth in wickedness..

So is this the clear teaching of amillennialism which claims that satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations at this time.. ?

In Timothy.. Paul writes that the devil takes men captive at his will.. is this the binding of satan as it is described in Rev 20..?

How about the First resurrection..? The context is clearly His coming in JUDGMENT as it is described in Rev 19.. then His reign with those who were BEHEADED for their testimony of Jesus Christ.. who had NOT received the mark of the BEAST.. a beast who we know is future as he is taken alive at the coming of the LORD..

Is the teaching of amillennialism aligned with that context..? It isn't, it's completed DISCONNECTED from the context of His coming in JUDGMENT and the physical resurrection of the DEAD.. and INSTEAD claims that the first resurrection is when a person receives Christ and is born again..

Amillennialism is completely out of context with Rev 20.

There are other hints that the millennial kingdom is spiritual- such as the fact that Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world".

Right now it isn't.. although according to Revelation 11, the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. would you care to expound on that or share your thoughts concerning it.. ?

 

[pamaris]

Right now it isn't.. although according to Revelation 11, the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. would you care to expound on that or share your thoughts concerning it.. ?

While His kingdom is not of this world, He is certainly reigning over this world... until all things be put under His feet. I do not have all the details of eschatology worked out for myself, but am starting with the big picture. I only recently converted from dispy to amil so I have a lot to learn.

In the amil understanding, it is entirely possible that the devil has been bound for "a thousand years" and has been loosed in these "last days"; for he knows "his time is short". While there has always been heresy and deception, we have never seen it on the scale that we do today.

I can't get past the "last day" objection that I mentioned before, as I don't believe the "last day" is a 1000 year period. The verse about a day being a thousand years is just saying that God is not bound by time as we are. I also cannot accept a temple being resurrected and useless, insulting sacrifices of animals being made in said temple. I do not know if "historical premillennialists" expect this to happen, but I do know that dispensationalists do.

Why should we accept the "last day" to mean anything other than a day? Even if we CAN accept that interpretation, why should we?

Also, at the return of Christ, we expect the following to happen:

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Acts 3:20-21 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

That seems to say that Jesus will return at the end of the age, then the elements will melt and heaven and earth shall pass away, at which time "the restitution of all things" will occur and He will create a new heavens and a new earth. Will He create a new heavens and new earth, and then do it again after the 1000 years? If, upon Jesus' return, He restores all things, including the heavens and the earth, and resurrects believers, why would He let it all go to pot again 1000 years later? If there was a 1000 year time period here between Jesus' return and the actual restoration of all things, wouldn't this be a good time to mention it?

ETA: I have followed the thread up to now, and I wanted to throw some things in the mix, but I don't have a ton of time (I have 2 little kiddos- 4 and 2), so I will probably not be a suitable debate partner. Hopefully someone with more time can keep the conversation going. It is very interesting. So, please forgive me if my answers are not very in depth. I am still learning too.