amillennialism?

[Chemnitz]

The Bible is about Jesus and what he has done, when our focus shifts from the cross of Christ to anything else we err.

Some Christians err in making the current State of Israel the recipient of the covenant promises and therefore the sum and focus of revelation.

Only this view called Amillennialism keeps our eyes on Jesus since it alone sees eschatology as the final realization of what God has done in Him rather than in the head of any other administration.

 

[ETide]

While His kingdom is not of this world, He is certainly reigning over this world... until all things be put under His feet.

Another way to think of His kingdom being not of this world is to think of it as being not based upon the kingdoms of this world.. ie, how that they're all corruptible etc.. Christ's kingdom is based upon His judgment and His righteousness. AND, we're taught in the scriptures that these are the times of the Gentiles, and it's obvious to see that Gentiles still have dominion over this planet.. the kingdoms of this world are clearly not the kingdom of Christ that we should be expecting..

AND AGAIN, Revelation 11 speaks of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. this is written within the portion of the Revelation which pertains to the things which shall be hereafter..(see Rev 1:19 and Rev 4)

AND let's not forget that right now, the god of this world is satan, who has, and who continues to blind the minds of those who believe not the gospel of Jesus Christ.. the one who is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that NOW works in the children of disobedience, the one who takes men captive at his will.. the one who roams about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour..

The apostle John tells us that the whole world lieth in wickedness..

Is this what you refer to as the reign of Christ.. as it is described in Revelation 20..?

Is this what you believe the context of Rev 20 pertains to when it speaks of satan being bound so that he can not deceive the nations..?

I do not have all the details of eschatology worked out for myself, but am starting with the big picture. I only recently converted from dispy to amil so I have a lot to learn.

I'd suggest that we all have a lot to learn.. that's what growing up into Christ is all about.. growing in His grace and in the knowledge of Him..

In the amil understanding, it is entirely possible that the devil has been bound for "a thousand years" and has been loosed in these "last days"; for he knows "his time is short". While there has always been heresy and deception, we have never seen it on the scale that we do today.

I certainly do not see it this way, although I certainly understand and accept the fact that many in Christ do see it as a possibility.

ALTHOUGH, when I read Paul's writings which pertain to the early church.. there was already deception and he says that when he departs, grievous wolves would come in, not sparing the flock.. Peter tells us that there are false teachers out there.. etc etc etc.. The Lord Himself gave us the example of the wheat and the tares growing together.. and that an ENEMY had done this..

I can't get past the "last day" objection that I mentioned before, as I don't believe the "last day" is a 1000 year period. The verse about a day being a thousand years is just saying that God is not bound by time as we are.

The Revelation itself speaks of a thoudand years.. mentioning it six times.. The CONTEXT of Rev 20 is dealing with Christ reigning with beheaded souls who had not worshipped the beast and who had not received his mark.. a BEAST which we know for certain pertains to the FUTURE, as he is taken and cast into the lake of fire when Christ comes as described in Rev 19.

As for what Peter says, look again, it pertains to the DAY OF THE LORD.. do a scripture study on the DAY OF THE LORD and you'll be amazed at how often the scriptures speak of this.. both the OT and the NT. AND, the content of the DAY OF THE LORD has all sorts of things pertaining to His kingdom coming in JUDGMENT first, and then the RIGHTEOUSNESS that follows..

So, seeing that you agree that there is a lot to learn, this is an excellent study in itself.. the DAY OF THE LORD, which is the DAY OF CHRIST.

I also cannot accept a temple being resurrected and useless, insulting sacrifices of animals being made in said temple. I do not know if "historical premillennialists" expect this to happen, but I do know that dispensationalists do.

Two things to consider here.. first, Israel has rejected Christ as their Messiah and their King, although this was all foretold.. SO, in other words.. they are still waiting for him and expecting him.. The scriptures also foretell of Israel ultimately being saved and receiving their king, although the time of Jacob's trouble will come first, and many will actually fall for a false Christ.. ie, the anti-Christ.. and this leads to the second point..

Paul tells us that the mystery of iniquity is already at work, and that it will ultimately be manifested in the man of sin who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, and HE will sit in the temple of God proclaiming that he is god..

Why should we accept the "last day" to mean anything other than a day? Even if we CAN accept that interpretation, why should we?

Again, because Revelation 20 speaks of it in the CONTEXT of His coming in judgment, and of His reigning with resurrected saints.. ie, those who were BEHEADED for their testimony of Jesus.. who had not worshipped the BEAST nor received his mark.. a BEAST which we know is future, because he is destroyed when the LORD COMES as described in Rev 19..

We should we accept an amillennial interpretation which completely disregards the CONTEXT of the chapter..? ?

Also, at the return of Christ, we expect the following to happen:

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Well, what does Rev 20 say.. ? It says that AFTER the thousand years are ended, satan is released for a time, he deceives and gathers the nations against the camp of the saints (on EARTH) and that FIRE comes down out of heaven from God and devours them..

THEN we read of the heaven and the earth fleeing from before the face of our Lord Jesus Christ.. THEN we read of the NEW heavens and the new earth..

So, it fits nicely if we do not IGNORE what Peter tells us not to be ignorant of.. that a day WITH the LORD is as a thousand years..

Acts 3:20-21 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

EXACTLY.. check out all of the PROPHETS as they speak of the DAY OF THE LORD and see if it fits into a normal day as you know it..

 

[pamaris]

The Bible is about Jesus and what he has done, when our focus shifts from the cross of Christ to anything else we err.

Some Christians err in making the current State of Israel the recipient of the covenant promises and therefore the sum and focus of revelation.

Only this view called Amillennialism keeps our eyes on Jesus since it alone sees eschatology as the final realization of what God has done in Him rather than in the head of any other administration.

It is also the only view that is apolitical- that is, it is the only view which does not demand that we take a certain political stance in regard to the nation of Israel and allows God's kingdom to remain "not of this world" as He said. That does not make it true, but it is an interesting observation, as there has been a lot of misuse of Christian eschatology in politics.

For example, many American Christians were apathetic towards Jews during the Holocaust, having been taught that it was God's judgement on the Jews in the last days.

 

[ETide]

The Bible is about Jesus and what he has done, when our focus shifts from the cross of Christ to anything else we err.

Some Christians err in making the current State of Israel the recipient of the covenant promises and therefore the sum and focus of revelation.

Thanks for your opinion, although it is my opinion that some Christians err by ignoring that which Paul reminds them to not be ignorant of.. and that's the mystery concerning Israel, how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. how that they're enemies for our sakes as concerning the gospel, but that they're beloved as concerning election.

This is not taking the focus off of Christ in any way, it's actually honoring Him and His word as far as I'm concerned.. if Israel has a part in election, and the Apostle Paul made it a point that Christians understand this.. so that they wouldn't be ignorant of it.. then that is focusing in on Christ and His word, and His purposes..

Only this view called Amillennialism keeps our eyes on Jesus since it alone sees eschatology as the final realization of what God has done in Him rather than in the head of any other administration.

In my opinion, amillennialism misses the entire CONTEXT of Rev 20 and attributes it to the present time rather than its future setting, claiming that Satan is bound while other NT scriptures make it perfectly clear that he is not bound.. it attributes the first resurrection to being born again, which again, completely removes it from its context..

So, there's my opinion.. and thanks again for sharing your own.. it's fine to disagree on these things.. that's nothing new and these are not salvation issues.

 

[frankDH]

I am glad you brought this up Parnaris.

Alot of folks who have been taught there will be an additional 1000 year period of mortal existence and a rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices (Pre-Mill interpretations of Zech 14:16 and Ezek 40-48); but as you say, that does 'fly in the face' of what Christ accomplised ONCE AND FOR ALL at calvary.

Even when premillennialism attempts to dilute and soften that expectation, by claiming it will be done for a 'memorial', it still flies in the face of Calvary.

Why? Because if you take Ezekiel 40-48 and interpret it literally, and apply it after the 2nd Coming, you find bulls and goats being slain for sin offerings for the people....for cleansing, sanctification, and purification.

No animal slaughter will ever bring about cleansing, sanctification, or purification AFTER calvary.

(That's what Jesus did...not animals.)

Dave,

When speaking within the context of what pertains to the saved, you have Calvary down to a tee. But you apply it universally to mankind. Saints and sinners alike. I believe this approach costs you the ability to see one of the ages to come and what transpires in that age.

Calvary did not eliminate sin in the world. It only provided the means for it to be eliminated. Those who accept the offer of Calvary, become freed from law, by becoming dead to sin, through baptism in Christ’s death. Those who do not accept this grace remain under the grip of law.

Jesus Christ’s work, with regard to salvation, is complete. But his work is a not complete. Salvation is not what brings an end to sin for all. The eradication of sin is accomplished through a two-fold effort of Christ. Grace, at Calvary, eliminates sin for God’s elect. But it is Christ’s judgment that deals with the rest. Judgment is the fulfillment of law, and an office of Christ.

It is the fulfillment of law that necessitates a 1000 year reign. Man was not the only thing defiled by sin. God’s law was defiled through man’s misapplication of law. Calvary deals with man’s defilement. But it is Christ’s complete rule, when all things become subject to him, that he will apply God’s law, in the scope God wills, through proper application. Any attempt, on Christ’s part, to present a kingdom, to the Father, that has never experienced the perfect application of God’s law, would be flawed. Christ must rule, in a total, spiritual and literal manner to accomplish this. And he does not fail the Father in any respect.

Those who have accepted Christ are freed from law’s condemnation. Not all, in the1000 year reign, are freed from law’s grip. The unsaved, in the1000 years, must comply with law for all the reasons that Israel was given the law. It reminds them [memorializes] of their sin by the need for continual offering of inferior sacrifice. It contrasts obedience and rebellion by revealing God‘s will. And it provides a way to prolong one’s days in the land.

Frank

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The Bible is about Jesus and what he has done, when our focus shifts from the cross of Christ to anything else we err.

Some Christians err in making the current State of Israel the recipient of the covenant promises and therefore the sum and focus of revelation.

Only this view called Amillennialism keeps our eyes on Jesus since it alone sees eschatology as the final realization of what God has done in Him rather than in the head of any other administration.

I agree. I believ too many folks today eagerly await the "endtimes" completely missing the love, kindness, and compassion of our Lord Jesus Christ and focus on political and popularity aspirations and ambitions rather than give Christ his due worship, and spread his good word amongst the nations of mankind.

 

[Chemnitz]

Thanks for your opinion, although it is my opinion that some Christians err by ignoring that which Paul reminds them to not be ignorant of.. and that's the mystery concerning Israel, how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. how that they're enemies for our sakes as concerning the gospel, but that they're beloved as concerning election.

This is not taking the focus off of Christ in any way, it's actually honoring Him and His word as far as I'm concerned.. if Israel has a part in election, and the Apostle Paul made it a point that Christians understand this.. so that they wouldn't be ignorant of it.. then that is focusing in on Christ and His word, and His purposes..


In my opinion, amillennialism misses the entire CONTEXT of Rev 20 and attributes it to the present time rather than its future setting, claiming that Satan is bound while other NT scriptures make it perfectly clear that he is not bound.. it attributes the first resurrection to being born again, which again, completely removes it from its context..

So, there's my opinion.. and thanks again for sharing your own.. it's fine to disagree on these things.. that's nothing new and these are not salvation issues.

The binding of Satan refers only to his being prohibited from hindering the spread of the Gospel; i.e. having his goods plundered (see the strong man analogy Jesus gave us).

No one is saying he's literally tied up some place.

And I agree this is not an issue over which Christians ought to anathematize others...though there are elements of the more extreme examples of Dispensationalism which may do violence to the nature of our redemption in Christ alone.

 

[ETide]

The binding of Satan refers only to his being prohibited from hindering the spread of the Gospel; i.e. having his goods plundered (see the strong man analogy Jesus gave us).

That's what I was trying to get across.. that has absolutely nothing to do with the CONTEXT of Revelation 20.

No one is saying he's literally tied up some place.

The CONTEXT says that he is bound to the extent that he can not deceive the nations.. although why should we believe that this is the case NOW if John tells us that the whole world lieth in wickedness.. if Paul tells us that the god of this world has blinded the minds of those that believe not the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.. if he takes men captive at his will... if he roams about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.. if he is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that NOW works in the children of disobedience..? ? ?

Symbolism in scripture is very common, and it's not only in the book of Revelation.. if Jesus Christ is said to be the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, that doesn't mandate that he is a little lamb as in an animal, although it absolutely translates into a literal fact that He is God's spotless sacrifice for the sin of the world..

So satan doesn't need to be bound with a literal chain although that translates into his literally being bound so that he can not deceive the nations.. although again, this portion of the book pertains to the things which shall be hereafter, although amillennialists apply it to the things which are..

And I agree this is not an issue over which Christians ought to anathematize others...though there are elements of the more extreme examples of Dispensationalism which may do violence to the nature of our redemption in Christ alone.

And what might those be..?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

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