Amil or Pretrib - which is biblical?

[sovereigngrace]

Thanks for sharing that. I figured it was something like that. Interesting to learn that your dad was a pastor as well. So, you followed in his footsteps in that way. Glad you don't teach pretrib like he did, though.

Interestingly, when I come back to the Lord (after his death) I asked his best friend (who is a staunch Pretribber) what my dad's position was on end-times and he told me that he definitely wasn't a pretrib anymore.

 

[Timtofly]

And it is "human opinion" to suggest Revelation is chronological, when it is not.

The only example of "bad" chronology ever offered is chapter 12. Not one person has explained how the other 21 chapters are not chronological.

It is just plain reading that shows the chronology of Revelation. Obviously when one reads words, it goes through an opinion filter in the mind.

So claiming opinion seems just an obvious excuse to make Revelation say whatever you want it to say. Since recap is not described in the text, it is an added opinion over plain reading comprehension.

Many use the Olivet Discourse as the key to unlock Revelation's chronology. I doubt that is very wise. That would mean one is to read Revelation backwards to get the chronology to work. Jesus does not even tell us what resolves the AoD. It is as if there is no resolution whatsoever. So Amil claim it is all resolved in a few moments, taking the easy escape plan of action. Even Daniel does not give a length to the desolation in Daniel 9:27.

Then when John lays it all out even with exact time frames, the claim is John is too symbolic and figurative. "We should just take the numbers and create nonsense meanings instead." "Forget John's chronology, let's invent our own." That makes sense, how? John was a direct eye witness, and now modern humans have it all figured out better than John described it?

 

[Timtofly]

You do know that there is more in scripture regarding eschatology than just the book of Revelation, right? No wonder you're wrong about everything. You never check to see if your interpretation of any given verse or passage in the book of Revelation lines up with what is taught in the rest of scripture or not.

Well, it looks like the streak of no one giving a convincing answer to the question "Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?" continues.

Even though the final wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at the sixth seal you somehow think that there are years that go by between the sixth seal and the seventh vial. That makes no sense. When the final wrath of the Lamb occurs, that's it. That's the end. There's no trumpets or vials that follow that. Time will end at that point and then the judgment will take place. It makes no sense whatsoever to interpret the book of Revelation chronologically from beginning to end the way you do. That approach leads to nonsensical conclusions that contradict other scripture.

Yet you provided no Scripture it contradicts. The only thing you pointed out was a nonsensical question that is wrong from the get go.

Are you saying the 7th Seal is opened before the 6th Seal? How does that work exactly? How can 25% die in the Seals and 33% die in the Trumpets if they are happening at the same time?

That would still mean 50% die before the Second Coming. Yet you claim all die "at the" not "prior to". How can all be dead even before the Second Coming happens?

Your opinion is based on characterizing the events. This is what happens at the Second Coming:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

They are still alive to face wrath during the Trumpets, the Thunders, and those with the mark who persevere until the very end, the Vials. The point is not really who can get away with living the longest through all the judgments. The point is that God is systematic, and longsuffering, giving them all chances to change their mind and accept the Atonement.

You remove all their chances at redemption, because you already pre-judged the situation, as not happening as John actually wrote. You have turned all of John's writings from being God's Word, and instead present only human opinion and imagination that makes sense to humanity as a whole, and not how God sees humanity. You even claim it dumb, that at the end of the 1000 years, God allows Satan to deceive many. Yet in Scripture, Satan was allowed to deceive 33% of the angels. Satan was allowed to deceive the whole of Adam's offspring via Adam and Eve, and you do not even think offspring means having many generations of families spread across the earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The only example of "bad" chronology ever offered is chapter 12. Not one person has explained how the other 21 chapters are not chronological.

It is just plain reading that shows the chronology of Revelation. Obviously when one reads words, it goes through an opinion filter in the mind.

So claiming opinion seems just an obvious excuse to make Revelation say whatever you want it to say. Since recap is not described in the text, it is an added opinion over plain reading comprehension.

Many use the Olivet Discourse as the key to unlock Revelation's chronology. I doubt that is very wise. That would mean one is to read Revelation backwards to get the chronology to work. Jesus does not even tell us what resolves the AoD. It is as if there is no resolution whatsoever. So Amil claim it is all resolved in a few moments, taking the easy escape plan of action. Even Daniel does not give a length to the desolation in Daniel 9:27.

Then when John lays it all out even with exact time frames, the claim is John is too symbolic and figurative. "We should just take the numbers and create nonsense meanings instead." "Forget John's chronology, let's invent our own." That makes sense, how? John was a direct eye witness, and now modern humans have it all figured out better than John described it?

Premils tend to impose a narrow hyper-literal general chronological approach on Revelation without truly considering the obvious recaps contained within Revelation or the noticeable figurative language used throughout to depict New Testament truth.

 

[Timtofly]

Premils tend to impose a narrow hyper-literal general chronological approach on Revelation without truly considering the obvious recaps contained within Revelation or the noticeable figurative language used throughout to depict New Testament truth.

Recaps are not obvious. They are human opinions forced onto the text. It is obvious that at Armageddon, Satan is bound in the pit, and the FP and beast are cast into the LOF.

That is exactly how John witnessed the event.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yet you provided no Scripture it contradicts. The only thing you pointed out was a nonsensical question that is wrong from the get go.

It was a question that sovereigngrace asked pre-tribs. How can it be a nonsensical question when it asks for scripture to back up what they believe? If you don't believe the same thing asked in the question, so be it, but most pre-tribs do. They believe the rapture occurs, and then a 7-year period of tribulation and then the second coming. Are you somehow unaware that most pre-tribs believe that? So, if you don't fall into that, then just never mind the question and don't make the ridiculous claim that it's a nonsensical question when it asks about something that most pre-tribs believe.

Are you saying the 7th Seal is opened before the 6th Seal?

No, not at all. At the 6th seal it indicates that the final wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at that point. It's just about to come down. So, I believe at the 7th seal it actually does come down. I believe that the reason it says there is silence in heaven for a half hour at that point is because Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have left heaven at that point.

How does that work exactly? How can 25% die in the Seals and 33% die in the Trumpets if they are happening at the same time?

That would still mean 50% die before the Second Coming. Yet you claim all die "at the" not "prior to". How can all be dead even before the Second Coming happens?

I'm not saying that. You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not necessarily saying, for example, that the 6th trumpet and 6th vial happen at exactly the same time, but I do see the order as being the 6th seal, then the 6th trumpet and then the 6th vial followed by the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial. I don't see it as all 7 seals first, then all 7 trumpets and then all 7 vials as you do. You read it all chronologically and i don't. This is something you already knew.

Your opinion is based on characterizing the events. This is what happens at the Second Coming:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

They are still alive to face wrath during the Trumpets, the Thunders, and those with the mark who persevere until the very end, the Vials. The point is not really who can get away with living the longest through all the judgments. The point is that God is systematic, and longsuffering, giving them all chances to change their mind and accept the Atonement.

That is completely unbiblical. Once Christ returns it will be too late for anyone to repent. Just read this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Does this give the impression that He gives people time to repent once He comes? No way. You need to read the book of Revelation in light of scriptures like this instead of reading the book in isolation without any care of whether or not you're contradicting other scripture with your interpretations of the book of Revelation.

You remove all their chances at redemption, because you already pre-judged the situation, as not happening as John actually wrote. You have turned all of John's writings from being God's Word, and instead present only human opinion and imagination that makes sense to humanity as a whole, and not how God sees humanity. You even claim it dumb, that at the end of the 1000 years, God allows Satan to deceive many. Yet in Scripture, Satan was allowed to deceive 33% of the angels. Satan was allowed to deceive the whole of Adam's offspring via Adam and Eve, and you do not even think offspring means having many generations of families spread across the earth.

LOL. You truly have no clue at all as to what you're talking about. None. I can't take you seriously.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Recaps are not obvious. They are human opinions forced onto the text. It is obvious that at Armageddon, Satan is bound in the pit, and the FP and beast are cast into the LOF.

That is exactly how John witnessed the event.

John saw several different visions. There is absolutely nothing that he said which dictates that everything he wrote down had to happen in chronological order. That is your man-made approach to interpreting the book that you are forcing on it.

The only example of "bad" chronology ever offered is chapter 12. Not one person has explained how the other 21 chapters are not chronological.

You are hilarious. Even you can see that what is described in Revelation 12 does not all follow what is described in Revelation 11 chronologically. Yet, for whatever reason, you have decided that nothing else in the book can be out of chronological order besides that. It seems that the reason must be doctrinal bias. What else could explain your insistence that the entire book is chronological except for Revelation 12?

 

[Timtofly]

No, not at all. At the 6th seal it indicates that the final wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at that point. It's just about to come down. So, I believe at the 7th seal it actually does come down. I believe that the reason it says there is silence in heaven for a half hour at that point is because Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have left heaven at that point.

They already arrived in the 6th Seal. There is silence, because judgment is about to happen. After Christ has arrived on the mount of Olives, that battle is resolved. Part of the reason they have been trying to hide. Then the 144k are sealed. Then Christ sits on the throne in Matthew 25. The 6 Trumpets are sounding while the sheep and goats are being gathered for judgment. There is 30 minutes of silence in heaven, and it coincides with the Temple and throne being set up on the earth, however long that takes. I doubt it will take years, but the harvest of the Trumpets and sheep and goats are for Israel, not the church. The church was already complete and glorified during the 5th and 6th Seal.

If you accept a rapture at the Second Coming, why would the church participate in standing as sheep and goats? The goats were not raptured, neither were the sheep. The church was judged at the Cross in Christ. Matthew 25 is not even symbolic of a rapture or the receiving of rewards to cast back at the Lord's feet. The rapture removes us from the earth not from the Nations, nor standing in judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not saying that. You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not necessarily saying, for example, that the 6th trumpet and 6th vial happen at exactly the same time, but I do see the order as being the 6th seal, then the 6th trumpet and then the 6th vial followed by the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial. I don't see it as all 7 seals first, then all 7 trumpets and then all 7 vials as you do. You read it all chronologically and i don't. This is something you already knew.

Actually this is the first explanation. I always seem to get, "but Revelation 12......". I do realize many want to claim all the ones happen then the twos, and so on. That is the general idea of recap.

I do not agree on the point though. Because John was about to write down the 7 Thunders, but could not. They happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet cannot sound until after the 7 Thunders. There is no way to match up the same numbered judgments with each other. That is forcing the text and context to say something totally different than it actually does. Not to mention we have literally no clue what is said to happen at each Thunder. Other than Satan and his angels have been at work since the 5th Trumpet when the pit was opened and turning many hearts known as the tares. Matthew 13. This is all playing out after the Second Coming.

The 7th Trumpet cannot stop until after the week of days is finished. Daniel 9:27 This week is split in half. There are 42 months inserted into the 7th Trumpet. So now the 7th Trumpet cannot stop until all 7 vials are completed. Only after Armageddon can the 7th Trumpet stop.

The 7th Trumpet is the final call, but it incorporates the 7 vials. Also the first 6 Trumpets cannot even start until after the silence.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

How can you place any Trumpet before the 7th Seal? John saw the angels only after the 7th Seal, not before. Only after the silence, not before. The angels are on the earth already during the whole tribulation noted by the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Only then in chapter 10, is the 7th angel allowed to sound the 7th Trumpet. Matthew 13:36-43 would cover the judgment of the Thunders. Because Christ and the angels are on earth both sowing and reaping. The 144k are also the sowers:

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?"

The 144k are the servants working with Christ during this sowing and reaping. They were sealed even before the judgment of the sheep and goats. They are the firstfruits of this sheep and goats judgment. They are all after the 6th Seal, the rapture and Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Does this give the impression that He gives people time to repent once He comes? No way. You need to read the book of Revelation in light of scriptures like this instead of reading the book in isolation without any care of whether or not you're contradicting other scripture with your interpretations of the book of Revelation.

This does not negate those who choose to be beheaded. When do you think the mark happens? Or has it been an ongoing phenomenon along with people having their heads chopped off over the last 1900 years of many recaps in judgment?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. You truly have no clue at all as to what you're talking about. None. I can't take you seriously.

Seems you do not take Genesis 1-3 seriously either as you avoided that point altogether. You really think it a joke that a third of the angels rebelled? They knew God face to face. Yet you question why any human would listen to Satan after the 1,000 years had expired. I guess if you want to just LOL the whole point, you have the free will to do so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Seems you do not take Genesis 1-3 seriously either as you avoided that point altogether. You really think it a joke that a third of the angels rebelled? They knew God face to face. Yet you question why any human would listen to Satan after the 1,000 years had expired. I guess if you want to just LOL the whole point, you have the free will to do so.

LOL