Amil or Pretrib - which is biblical?

[sovereigngrace]

This is from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod - THE END TIMES - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism

https://files.lcms.org/dl/f/23D8C043-52E4-4527-A81D-E63CF644A7D8

Interesting read.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When Elijah the prophet arises and tells you the very same thing I did, will you reject him also?

If you're referencing Malachi 4 then you should know that Elijah already came and it was John the Baptist. Jesus said so. So, I have no concerns whatsoever of Elijah himself coming to tell me the same nonsense that you're telling me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Though I grasp your point in regards to the rules for this thread, but in regards to recaps though, Revelation 20 involves zero recaps, but that doesn't mean the same is true of everything else recorded in Revelation.

It's strange to me that you can recognize this but don't even allow for the possibility that Revelation 20 is another recap. Whatever.

Plus, it seems silly that if some of Revelation 20 is paralleling some of Revelation 19, that John would think his readers are so forgetful about things that he needs to remind us in Revelation 20:10 that where satan is cast into, the beast and fp were cast into at an earlier time. An earlier time? If assuming this scenario. Revelation 19 would not be meaning an earlier time, it would be meaning the same day.

How would it be any less silly from the Premil perspective? Regardless of whether Amil or Premil are true, he mentioned where the beast and false prophet are going to be cast in two consecutive chapters. What makes that silly if Amil is true but not silly if Premil is true (it's not silly either way, for the record)?

How long before Satan the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire is irrelevant. Whether it's seconds before or 1000+ years before, he still mentioned them being cast into the lake of fire in two consecutive chapters. What is silly about that? He was simply making it clear that Satan will be cast into the same place as the beast and false prophet.

 

[Timtofly]

Though I grasp your point in regards to the rules for this thread, but in regards to recaps though, Revelation 20 involves zero recaps, but that doesn't mean the same is true of everything else recorded in Revelation. Plus, it seems silly that if some of Revelation 20 is paralleling some of Revelation 19, that John would think his readers are so forgetful about things that he needs to remind us in Revelation 20:10 that where satan is cast into, the beast and fp were cast into at an earlier time. An earlier time? If assuming this scenario. Revelation 19 would not be meaning an earlier time, it would be meaning the same day.

1000 years earlier.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

"Where they are", is not indicative of "earlier in the day". It just means the same LoF instead of another LoF.

 

[DavidPT]

1000 years earlier.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

"Where they are", is not indicative of "earlier in the day". It just means the same LoF instead of another LoF.

Exactly. Actually though, a thousand years and a little season earlier. And that is the point Revelation 20:10 is making, that at a way much earlier time, not the same day instead, the beast and fp were cast into this same LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. Actually though, a thousand years and a little season earlier. And that is the point Revelation 20:10 is making, that at a way much earlier time, not the same day instead, the beast and fp were cast into this same LOF.

Not even a recap.

Two totally different events.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Exactly. Actually though, a thousand years and a little season earlier. And that is the point Revelation 20:10 is making, that at a way much earlier time, not the same day instead, the beast and fp were cast into this same LOF.

Eve, Adam, and Satan were all judged together in the Garden but in a systematic order. Satan was left to the last. It will be the same at the end! The end is always in the beginning. Rev 17-19 is simply focused on the plight/judgment of the beast and false prophet, Rev 20 is focused on the plight/judgment of the devil. Both parallels relate to the intra-Advent period and end at the climactic second coming.

Genesis 3:9-15: "And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Each parallel in Revelation victoriously terminates with the overthrow of different areas of the overall invisible demonic realm and their decisive banishment into eternal punishment after the same judgment. Just because their sentencing is not all described in the same chapter does not constitute different events or different time-periods. The parallels in Revelation are actually deliberately written the way they are so as to highlight God's sovereign dealings over each unique aspect of the one evil realm in the same decisive way. This does not dilute the order of sentencing on the same judgment day.

There is always order with God. There was in the Garden when God judged Eve, Adam, and Satan. Whilst they were all judged together in the Garden, it was in a deliberate systematic order. Satan was left to the last. It will be the same at the end! The end is always in the beginning. Just like the dead in Christ rising first right before the alive in Christ are caught up does not in any way suggest any significant time difference or major separation in time, so it is with the judging of the demonic realm. In fact these two companies unite in the air in 1/20 of a second (the twinkling of an eye). They are immediately followed by the wicked at the general resurrection. Again, this could all literally happen in a second (or seconds). There is also an order between the wicked being sentenced and the righteous at the general judgment. This also will be the case with the best/false prophet and Satan. They are all judged at the same time, only in order.

In Revelation 19:20 the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone just before Satan; Lucifer, follows shortly after at the same second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Revelation 20:10). Satan always seems to be the last sentenced in Scripture because he is the ultimate source of evil, the ring-leader and the chief enemy.

So:

· Revelation 17-19 is dealing with the subject of the beast and false prophet (Babylon - the harlot) and their current curtailment and future demise. This parallel reaches a climax at Christ's all-consummating return (Revelation 19) when they are pulled down and sentenced.
· Revelation 20:1 takes us right back to the victory of the cross and the resurrection of Christ. It is the beginning of the 7th of 7 parallels in Revelation. Jesus is indeed the first resurrection. He acquired the key (or all authority) over Satan at the resurrection. Satan was restrained by a heavy spiritual chain at the cross to enable the Gentiles (ethnos) to receive the Gospel. Satan will however be released before the second coming for his final thrown but will be destroyed at that glorious event.

Revelation 17-19 shows the subjugation of the beast and the false prophet; Revelation 20 shows the subjugation of Satan.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Exactly. Actually though, a thousand years and a little season earlier. And that is the point Revelation 20:10 is making, that at a way much earlier time, not the same day instead, the beast and fp were cast into this same LOF.

You're acting as if it actually says that in the text, but it does not. You are assuming that.

Why would God want to cast Satan and those whose names are not written in the book of life into the lake of fire 1000+ years after the beast and false prophet? Do you have any reasonable explanation for that?

 

[Timtofly]

You're acting as if it actually says that in the text, but it does not. You are assuming that.

Why would God want to cast Satan and those whose names are not written in the book of life into the lake of fire 1000+ years after the beast and false prophet? Do you have any reasonable explanation for that?

No need to place them any where else for those 1000 years. Obviously they will not stand at the GWT, neither will Satan for that matter. The beast is not human, no sense for this being to stand with Adam's flesh and blood at the GWT. There are 3 beast mentioned in Revelation 13. Only one of those was a human by the time being cast into the LOF was a thing.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No need to place them any where else for those 1000 years. Obviously they will not stand at the GWT, neither will Satan for that matter. The beast is not human, no sense for this being to stand with Adam's flesh and blood at the GWT. There are 3 beast mentioned in Revelation 13. Only one of those was a human by the time being cast into the LOF was a thing.

Your whole doctrine is based upon one false premise, that Revelation 20 must be chronological to Revelation 19. Prove that wrong, which has been done repeatedly on this forum, and your doctrine falls apart. You have nothing else.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Op Note

This has been a totally lob-sided discussion. Pretrib has brought nothing of scriptural worth to the table. The only conclusion we can come to those that they recognize what they rest of us know: they have nothing evidential to present. They have no answer to this question:

Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Op Note

This has been a totally lob-sided discussion. Pretrib has brought nothing of scriptural worth to the table. The only conclusion we can come to those that they recognize what they rest of us know: they have nothing evidential to present. They have no answer to this question:

Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?

You have asked that question to pre-tribs many times for many years and not one of them have even come close to answering it in any kind of convincing way at all. Most don't even try. And that is because they know there is no such scripture. Their beliefs are based on a mishmash of unrelated scriptures all randomly thrown together to form an incoherent doctrine that has no scriptural support whatsoever.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You have asked that question to pre-tribs many times for many years and not one of them have even come close to answering it in any kind of convincing way at all. Most don't even try. And that is because they know there is no such scripture. Their beliefs are based on a mishmash of unrelated scriptures all randomly thrown together to form an incoherent doctrine that has no scriptural support whatsoever.

Amen bro! Pretribs do not come close to answering in any kind of credible, coherent, reasonable or convincing way how there is a rapture of the Church followed by a prolonged tribulation followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. And, yes, most don't even try because they know it is not in the Book! There is no explicit or vague Scripture that teaches this. And, yes, their beliefs are indeed based upon a hodge-podge of unrelated Scriptures arbitrarily forced together to form an illogical theory that carries no scriptural support anywhere.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Amen bro! Pretribs do not come close to answering in any kind of credible, coherent, reasonable or convincing way how there is a rapture of the Church followed by a prolonged tribulation followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. And, yes, most don't even try because they know it is not in the Book! There is no explicit or vague Scripture that teaches this. And, yes, their beliefs are indeed based upon a hodge-podge of unrelated Scriptures arbitrarily forced together to form an illogical theory that carries no scriptural support anywhere.

So, with all that in mind, how did you ever believe in pretrib? You just used to believe whatever you were taught back then? You certainly didn't come to believe in that from carefully studying scripture.

Please don't be offended by my question. I'm just curious and am just teasing you a bit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, with all that in mind, how did you ever believe in pretrib? You just used to believe whatever you were taught back then? You certainly didn't come to believe in that from carefully studying scripture.

Please don't be offended by my question. I'm just curious and am just teasing you a bit.

By default. My dad was a pretrib pastor. I just took it as Gospel. But I do remember asking him a simple question when I was about 13 and he stumped. I backslid from 16 to 26. When I came back to the Lord I quickly discovered that the theory was unbiblical. I felt cheated and deceived.

 

[Timtofly]

Your whole doctrine is based upon one false premise, that Revelation 20 must be chronological to Revelation 19. Prove that wrong, which has been done repeatedly on this forum, and your doctrine falls apart. You have nothing else.

Only because of human opinion. Recap is human opinion. No Scripture declares recap.

On the other hand remove human chapter and verse markings and there is no break in thought between 19 and 20. Not even an implied break.

That is not even doctrine or forced opinion. That is just simple reading comprehension.

Recap is forced human opinion on the text and context.

Claiming I have nothing is the logic that declares the last 1900 years did not happen either. No where in Scripture does it state there are a specific number of years between the first and second coming. The only time reference given is the 1000 year reign of Christ, and you all turn those words into symbols.

 

[Timtofly]

You have asked that question to pre-tribs many times for many years and not one of them have even come close to answering it in any kind of convincing way at all. Most don't even try. And that is because they know there is no such scripture. Their beliefs are based on a mishmash of unrelated scriptures all randomly thrown together to form an incoherent doctrine that has no scriptural support whatsoever.

That is because no one puts the Seals before any other events. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming itself, thus pre-trib. One's eschatology is as good as their chronology of Revelations.

John did not put the 6th Seal as the very last event. No one else should either.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Only because of human opinion. Recap is human opinion. No Scripture declares recap.

On the other hand remove human chapter and verse markings and there is no break in thought between 19 and 20. Not even an implied break.

That is not even doctrine or forced opinion. That is just simple reading comprehension.

Recap is forced human opinion on the text and context.

Claiming I have nothing is the logic that declares the last 1900 years did not happen either. No where in Scripture does it state there are a specific number of years between the first and second coming. The only time reference given is the 1000 year reign of Christ, and you all turn those words into symbols.

And it is "human opinion" to suggest Revelation is chronological, when it is not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

By default. My dad was a pretrib pastor. I just took it as Gospel. But I do remember asking him a simple question when I was about 13 and he stumped. I backslid from 16 to 26. When I came back to the Lord I quickly discovered that the theory was unbiblical. I felt cheated and deceived.

Thanks for sharing that. I figured it was something like that. Interesting to learn that your dad was a pastor as well. So, you followed in his footsteps in that way. Glad you don't teach pretrib like he did, though.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That is because no one puts the Seals before any other events. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming itself, thus pre-trib. One's eschatology is as good as their chronology of Revelations.

You do know that there is more in scripture regarding eschatology than just the book of Revelation, right? No wonder you're wrong about everything. You never check to see if your interpretation of any given verse or passage in the book of Revelation lines up with what is taught in the rest of scripture or not.

John did not put the 6th Seal as the very last event. No one else should either.

Well, it looks like the streak of no one giving a convincing answer to the question "Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?" continues.

Even though the final wrath of the Lamb is already at hand at the sixth seal you somehow think that there are years that go by between the sixth seal and the seventh vial. That makes no sense. When the final wrath of the Lamb occurs, that's it. That's the end. There's no trumpets or vials that follow that. Time will end at that point and then the judgment will take place. It makes no sense whatsoever to interpret the book of Revelation chronologically from beginning to end the way you do. That approach leads to nonsensical conclusions that contradict other scripture.