America

[Legionwrex]

If prohecy is true then it will not get better but worse yet.

If you're a dispensationalist maybe. But I am getting tired of these excuses not to try and improve the Country because "It'll only get worse".

 

[psalms 91]

I didnt say not to try, it is our duty to try but I dont see prophecy not coming true.

 

[Bluelion]

If you're a dispensationalist maybe. But I am getting tired of these excuses not to try and improve the Country because "It'll only get worse".

I think everyone has been trying to improve the country with all the warning against the way it is going.

 

[RDKirk]

If you're a dispensationalist maybe. But I am getting tired of these excuses not to try and improve the Country because "It'll only get worse".

Scripture does tell us it will get worse. But more importantly, is it the mission commanded by Christ for His Body? Did Christ command, "Fix the Roman Empire?" Is there evidence in scripture that Paul or any of the other apostles attempted to change the laws of the Roman Empire?

We know that soldiers and even significant Roman officials became Christians, we see no evidence of them initiating petitions to the Roman government for changes in laws. Rather, see them being called before the Roman government to explain (apologize) Christian activities, and at that point they gain audience to promote the gospel.

Understanding that the mission of the Body of Christ is not to "fix the Roman Empire" becomes significant when faced with questions like "Why didn't the Church protest slavery?" or "Why didn't the Church protest the subjugation of women?" or "Why didn't the Church protest temple prostitution?"

Even though the last is inarguabley prohibited of Christians (and we can argue for the others as well), we don't see the apostles moving in that direction: Nowhere do we see Paul adjuring officials to cease pagan worship.

That's because "fixing the Roman Empire" was not and is not the mission of the Body of Christ. Jesus did not command it; the apostles did not prosecute it.

The mission of the Body of Christ is not to save the Titanic, but to point to the lifeboat of rescue from it. It is a grave error for the small group of Christians that happen to be in America to think that this particular "deck" of the Titanic is not going down with the rest of the ship.

 

[Bluelion]

Scripture does tell us it will get worse. But more importantly, is it the mission commanded by Christ for His Body? Did Christ command, "Fix the Roman Empire?" Is there evidence in scripture that Paul or any of the other apostles attempted to change the laws of the Roman Empire?

We know that soldiers and even significant Roman officials became Christians, we see no evidence of them initiating petitions to the Roman government for changes in laws. Rather, see them being called before the Roman government to explain (apologize) Christian activities, and at that point they gain audience to promote the gospel.

Understanding that the mission of the Body of Christ is not to "fix the Roman Empire" becomes significant when faced with questions like "Why didn't the Church protest slavery?" or "Why didn't the Church protest the subjugation of women?" or "Why didn't the Church protest temple prostitution?"

Even though the last is inarguabley prohibited of Christians (and we can argue for the others as well), we don't see the apostles moving in that direction: Nowhere do we see Paul adjuring officials to cease pagan worship.

That's because "fixing the Roman Empire" was not and is not the mission of the Body of Christ. Jesus did not command it; the apostles did not prosecute it.

The mission of the Body of Christ is not to save the Titanic, but to point to the lifeboat of rescue from it. It is a grave error for the small group of Christians that happen to be in America to think that this particular "deck" of the Titanic is not going down with the rest of the ship.

Paul did preach to the people in government to turn them Christian, so at least if we look at Paul's ministry we are to minister to people in government and call them to live by Christian values.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul did preach to the people in government to turn them Christian, so at least if we look at Paul's ministry we are to minister to people in government and call them to live by Christian values.

Did you read what I wrote:

We know that soldiers and even significant Roman officials became Christians, we see no evidence of them initiating petitions to the Roman government for changes in laws. Rather, see them being called before the Roman government to explain (apologize) Christian activities, and at that point they gain audience to promote the gospel.

 

[Bluelion]

Did you read what I wrote:

Well if calling them to live Christian lives causes christian Laws what is wrong with that. Roman changed many of its law because of Christianity. Christians did not care about the Laws which said they could not preach they did it any way and as a result people in government because christian and changed the laws. Yeah that is a real bad thing for Christians to influence law. what side are you on any way?

You preach church and state however this is not what Paul taught or preached. You can not have a heathen government and a moral Christian society.

 

[Legionwrex]

Scripture does tell us it will get worse. But more importantly, is it the mission commanded by Christ for His Body? Did Christ command, "Fix the Roman Empire?" Is there evidence in scripture that Paul or any of the other apostles attempted to change the laws of the Roman Empire?

We know that soldiers and even significant Roman officials became Christians, we see no evidence of them initiating petitions to the Roman government for changes in laws. Rather, see them being called before the Roman government to explain (apologize) Christian activities, and at that point they gain audience to promote the gospel.

Understanding that the mission of the Body of Christ is not to "fix the Roman Empire" becomes significant when faced with questions like "Why didn't the Church protest slavery?" or "Why didn't the Church protest the subjugation of women?" or "Why didn't the Church protest temple prostitution?"

Even though the last is inarguabley prohibited of Christians (and we can argue for the others as well), we don't see the apostles moving in that direction: Nowhere do we see Paul adjuring officials to cease pagan worship.

That's because "fixing the Roman Empire" was not and is not the mission of the Body of Christ. Jesus did not command it; the apostles did not prosecute it.

The mission of the Body of Christ is not to save the Titanic, but to point to the lifeboat of rescue from it. It is a grave error for the small group of Christians that happen to be in America to think that this particular "deck" of the Titanic is not going down with the rest of the ship.

I'm not in the Roman Empire, and it later improved on itself due to the vast spread of Christianity. That clearly isn't working anymore. Maybe Some people are content just sitting by and letting so many of these evils such as abortion or gay marriage advance unopposed, but I'm not going to just stand aside. Christians just standing around not doing anything are part of the reason so many of these evils are allowed to continue.

And yes, scripture does say it will get worse. However I'm not so sure we are in the end times just yet, as many of the apostles thought they too were living in the last days.

Finally, in general Americans tend to be patriotic, and I see no reason it is bad to try and restore my Country to it's former glory as one of the most Christian nations in the world.

 

[98cwitr]

just let it go already, i showed how the first colonist were seeking religious freedom more specific Christianity freedom. That they were in fact religious groups who formed the first states. Look up those who settled Maryland a catholic refuge, and who settled Mas. Protestant and who settled New England, puritans. PA Quakers and it goes on.Pa also the first state to intact religious freedom of Christians as a result many faiths gathered there.1600-1700 time frame, now tell me that is not true.

Heck man...you let it go already (as you have started this thread)...I already showed you how their actions didn't fit their words...hypocrisy at it's finest there dude.

Just because they labelled themselves as Christians doesn't mean they actually were. Just look at how they lived their lives, not what they wrote on paper. Same holds true for us today, doesn't it?

 

[now faith]

"We" and "us"--when spoken by a Christian about culture--should always be about the Body of Christ.

For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
-- 1 Peter 4

Unbelievers are not of the same nation or culture as members of the Body of Christ. We are a nation unto ourselves, even though dispersed through the worldly nations. Their culture is not our culture.

Things only look bad when you claim the culture of the natives as your own. But the natives are merely living like the natives they are. Citizens of Heaven must not think that we are natives like them.

...as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the pagans, that when they speak against you as evildoers [not following their moral principles], they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

A pastor has recently said, truly, "If you send your children to Caesar's schools, don't be surprised if they turn out to be Romans."

We learn a valuable lesson,in Christ statement on casting pearls before swine.

True if you can discern the swine from the the Holy.

Fact is the majority of Americans profess Christianity.

Even Muslims,Buddest and others state there was a Jesus who was a prophet.

But that is not the Jesus we serve in the Body,nor the one true God.

I believe what people are trying to convey here, is Not that America is the only true Christian
Nation.

I simply think they see so much evil going to and fro,that they ask is this the Country I used to know?

As Ronald Regan said Quote : I did not leave the Democratic party,the Democratic party left me.

Do you suppose our Lord might be thinking the same about America?

 

[now faith]

Heck man...you let it go already (as you have started this thread)...I already showed you how their actions didn't fit their words...hypocrisy at it's finest there dude.

Just because they labelled themselves as Christians doesn't mean they actually were. Just look at how they lived their lives, not what they wrote on paper. Same holds true for us today, doesn't it?

Well they certainly put God first in major undertakings such as a peace treaty.



Transcript of Treaty of Paris (1783)
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The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783

In the Name of the most Holy & undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc.. and of the United States of America, to forget all past Misunderstandings and Differences that have unhappily interrupted the good Correspondence and Friendship which they mutually wish to restore; and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory Intercourse between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal Advantages and mutual Convenience.


Any such important document as the treaty of Paris,starting out : in the name of the most holy trinity,tells me the importance of God was to our founders.

I think what people fail to realize is the historical importance of God in America.

Those who would promote let's say secular humanism,and seek to remove any reference of God in our culture,
Will argue to change history.

But they cannot change facts,only confuse them.

Go into the National archive's and research the role that God played in the authors of historical documents.

Many of our founders were ministers themselves,yet the humanist want to highlight the hand full that were deist or agnostic.

This straw man is growing and a attempt to promote there propaganda.

In the big picture it will allow for deviant behavior to be a right and take away the rights of Preachers to preach the truth in their own pulpits.

The debate on America being founded on Christian principles is much more important than people realize.

When sin becomes a human rights issue then speaking against it becomes a crime.

There agenda is to relocate us to home churches that are illegal.

Our rights as Christians need to be defended not debunked,in a matter of law we must use the foundation of truth,
In order to push back those who seek to destroy Christianity.

 

[RDKirk]

You preach church and state however this is not what Paul taught or preached. You can not have a heathen government and a moral Christian society.

You just said that the whole of the New Testament, especially the book of Acts and 1 Peter, is just make believe. You realize you just said that, right?

 

[psalms 91]

Heck man...you let it go already (as you have started this thread)...I already showed you how their actions didn't fit their words...hypocrisy at it's finest there dude.

Just because they labelled themselves as Christians doesn't mean they actually were. Just look at how they lived their lives, not what they wrote on paper. Same holds true for us today, doesn't it?

I take it you know perfect people? For that is what you preach. We all fall short so who can judge? If we fall short then we all are hypocrites in one way or another. Thank God The message of the cross is that we are forgiven and only havve to strive to reach perfection. To many judge the church with a more critical eye than they judge themselves and it is sad for we are called to be what God wants us to be and know that we fall along the way with forgiveness and mercy available to us through Christ.

 

[Keachian]

Thank God The message of the cross is that we are forgiven and only havve to strive to reach perfection.

That's not the message of the Cross.

The Son went to the Cross to reconcile us back to the Father and they send the Spirit to transform us to be like the Son.

That is why we should be able to judge whether someone is a Christian based on the fruit, that is why saying that we now strive to reach perfection is incorrect. It feels that way yes but it is the Spirit working in us to affect that desire and turn us to Christ.

 

[RDKirk]

I take it you know perfect people? For that is what you preach. We all fall short so who can judge? If we fall short then we all are hypocrites in one way or another. Thank God The message of the cross is that we are forgiven and only havve to strive to reach perfection. To many judge the church with a more critical eye than they judge themselves and it is sad for we are called to be what God wants us to be and know that we fall along the way with forgiveness and mercy available to us through Christ.

You realize you're calling Jesus and Paul both liars, right?

“If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he won’t listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses [witnesses to the sin] every fact may be established. If he pays no attention to them, tell the church. But if he doesn’t pay attention even to the church, let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you. -- Matthew 18


It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even tolerated among the Gentiles—a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from your congregation. For though I am absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about the one who has done this thing as though I were present.

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.
.....

I wrote to you in a letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. I did not mean the immoral people of this world or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world. But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.

For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don’t you judge those who are inside? But God judges outsiders. Put away the evil person from among yourselves. -- 1 Corinthians 5

Interestingly, a Christian can associate with pagans in order to evangelize, but cannot associate with someone who claims to be a Christian but refuses to act like one.

 

[psalms 91]

Again, I ask are you perfect or are you as well a hypocrite because short of perfection then in some way you are.

 

[Bluelion]

You just said that the whole of the New Testament, especially the book of Acts and 1 Peter, is just make believe. You realize you just said that, right?

umm no i did not say that show me where i said that. Falsely accuse much

 

[Bluelion]

You realize you're calling Jesus and Paul both liars, right?

“If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he won’t listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses [witnesses to the sin] every fact may be established. If he pays no attention to them, tell the church. But if he doesn’t pay attention even to the church, let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you. -- Matthew 18


It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even tolerated among the Gentiles—a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from your congregation. For though I am absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about the one who has done this thing as though I were present.

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.
.....

I wrote to you in a letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. I did not mean the immoral people of this world or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world. But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.

For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don’t you judge those who are inside? But God judges outsiders. Put away the evil person from among yourselves. -- 1 Corinthians 5

Interestingly, a Christian can associate with pagans in order to evangelize, but cannot associate with someone who claims to be a Christian but refuses to act like one.

Funny I fail to see how Falsely accusing people is following Jesus after all satan is the great accuser.

 

[Keachian]

Funny I fail to see how Falsely accusing people is following Jesus after all satan is the great accuser.

It's not about falsely accusing people it is about judging whether someone is being hypocritical and everyone is to an extent which is part of the reason why Jesus told the plank and speck parable. It gives us a grounding on which our judgement starts by self-evaluation to make sure that we don't have the same problems before we address the problems of others which concern us.

 

[RDKirk]

umm no i did not say that show me where i said that. Falsely accuse much

You said:
Originally Posted by Bluelion

You preach church and state however this is not what Paul taught or preached. You can not have a heathen government and a moral Christian society.
​

However, the early Church was precisely a moral Christian society within a heathen government.

Jesus specifically declared in John 15 that the Church would be a moral Christian society in a heathen government.

The apostolic letters, especially 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter, define the moral Christian society within the heathen government and give instructions on how to maintain it.

You declared impossible what Jesus said was fact and what the apostles defined, described, and instruction.