America

[now faith]

I don't deny that this country has been influenced by Christianity, I do deny it was founded on Christian principles.

I might have come off a little harsh myself...my apologies!

Let's lighten things up...

Articles, Laws, and Orders, Divine, Politic, and Martial for the Colony in Virginia

1610

Articles, Lawes, and Orders, Divine, Politique, and Martiall for the Colony in Virginea: first established by Sir Thomas Gates Knight, Lieutenant Generall, the 24th of May 1610. exemplified and approved by the Right Honourable Sir Thomas West Knight, Lord Lawair, Lord Governor and Captaine Generall the 12th day of June 1610. Againe exemplified and enlarged by Sir Thomas Dale Knight, Marshall, and Deputie Governour, the 22nd of June, 1611.

Whereas his Majestie like himselfe a most zealous Prince hath in his owne Realmes a principall care of true Religion, and reverence to God, and hath alwaies strictly commaunded his Generals and Governours, with all his forces wheresoever, to let their waies be like his ends for the glorie of God.

And forasmuch as no good service can be performed, or warre well managed, where militarie discipline is not observed, and militarie discipline cannot be kept, where the rules or chiefe parts thereof, be not certainely set downe, and generally knowne, I have (with the advise and counsell of Sir Thomas Gates Knight, Lieutenant Generall) adhered unto the lawes divine, and orders politique, and martiall of his Lordship (the same exemplified) an addition of such others, as I have found either the necessitie of the present State of the Colonie to require, or the infancie, and weaknesses of the body thereof, as yet able to digest, and doe now publish them to all persons in the Colonie, that they may as well take knowledge of the Lawes themselves, as of the penaltie and punishment, which without partialitie shall be inflicted upon the breakers of the same.

First since we owe our highest and supreme duty, our greatest, and all our allegeance to him, from whom all power and authoritie is derived, and flowes as from the first, and onely fountaine, and being especiall souldiers emprest in this sacred cause, we must alone expect our successe from him, who is only the blesser of all good attempts, the King of kings, the commaunder of commaunders, and Lord of Hostes, I do strictly commaund and charge all Captaines and Officers, of what qualitie or nature soever, whether commanders in the field, or in towne, or townes, forts or fortresses, to have a care that the Almightie God bee duly and daily served, and that they call upon their people to heare Sermons, as that also they diligently frequent Morning and Evening praier themselves by their owne exemplar and daily life, and duties herein, encouraging others thereunto, and that such, who shall often and wilfully absent themselves, be duly punished according to the martiall law in that case provided.
That no man speake impiously or maliciously, against the holy and blessed Trinitie, or any of the three persons, that is to say, against God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy Ghost, or against the knowne Articles of the Christian faith, upon paine of death.
That no man blaspheme Gods holy name upon paine of death, or use unlawful oathes, taking the name of God in vaine, curse, or banne, upon paine of severe punishment for the first offence so committed, and for the second, to have a bodkin thrust through his tongue, and if he continues the blaspheming of Gods holy name, for the third time so offending, he shall be brought to a martiall court, and there receive censure of death for his offence.
No man shall use any traiterous words against his Majesties Person, or royall authority upon paine of death.
No man shall speake any word, or do any act, which may tend to the derision, or despight of Gods holy word upon paine of death: Nor shall any man unworthily demeane himself unto any Preacher, or Minister of the same, but generally hold them in all reverent regard, and dutiful intreatie, otherwise he the offender shall openly be whipt three times, and ask publike forgivenesse in the assembly of the congregation three several Saboth Daies..

Really not founded on Christian principles,there are many more documents like this.

 

[98cwitr]

Well we can see from our constitution that Virginia's "decree" is unconstitutional.

First Amendment
Main article: First Amendment to the United States Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[69]

 

[standingtall]

Really not founded on Christian principles,there are many more documents like this.

A document written in 1610 for the ENGLISH colony in Virginia? You're reaching really deep. This is not a "founding" document.

In addition, those Articles, Laws, and Orders, Divine, Politic, and Martial for the Colony in Virginia lasted only until 1611.

Do you advocate such laws for our country now?

Check the Constitution. Our founders specifically did NOT want what this document advocates.

Try again.

 

[RDKirk]

Well we can see from our constitution that Virginia's "decree" is unconstitutional.

First Amendment
Main article: First Amendment to the United States Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[69]

Yes.

I've already pointed out that the Virginia colony was initally set up with the Church of England as its "established church," although the state of Virginia had abandoned the "established church" even before the Constitution was written.

It's important to understand that as the colonies were chartered, there was no concept at all of a federal nation stretching from sea to shining sea under one religion. The 100 Separatists (a very small congregation indeed) who arrived on the Mayflower certainly didn't have such a vision.

Each colony intended to conduct its own religious affairs without inference from any other colony--and certainly without interference from any overarching government.

"Manifest Destiny" was not in the minds of the Founding Fathers.

 

[Bluelion]

Well we can see from our constitution that Virginia's "decree" is unconstitutional.

First Amendment
Main article: First Amendment to the United States Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[69]

Got one chapter down its about the natives and slaves. What is true is not some of the colonist but all of them insisted on converting the native Americans and slaves to Christianity. This is also true in mexico and South America with the Spanish.

The colonist had religion in mind from the very start. I have not got to the forming of the government yet maybe next chapter. I'll keep you updated with what I find.

 

[now faith]

Oh for goodness sake,you win America was not a Christian nation you win.
Most of the time this is a debate with atheist,one thing I know it's not a Christian Nation any more.

 

[RDKirk]

It's more important to know what Christians are than what America is not.

Christians are citizens of Heaven, "pilgrims of the Diaspora," deployed to various countries on this earth to perform a mission of limited duration. Then we're going home.

Too many Christians in America do not know where their home is. They think their home is America and treasure being Americans. But where their tresure is, their hearts are as well, which is what neutralizes the power that Christians in America should have in the Holy Spirit for the good of the entire Body of Christ worldwide.

To the pilgrims of the Diaspora in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia, Japan, China, England, India, America, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. -- 1 Peter 1:1

 

[98cwitr]

Got one chapter down its about the natives and slaves. What is true is not some of the colonist but all of them insisted on converting the native Americans and slaves to Christianity. This is also true in mexico and South America with the Spanish.

The colonist had religion in mind from the very start. I have not got to the forming of the government yet maybe next chapter. I'll keep you updated with what I find.

Keep in mind that Christianity is not (to Christians) a "religion," it's a relationship and rebirthing of Spirit. Now I ask, do you find in your studies fruits of the Spirit when these "Christians" dealt with non-Christians and those they perceived as a threat? Hate to pull the end-game card, but just look at the Crusades...and then compare it to the founding of America.

 

[RDKirk]

Got one chapter down its about the natives and slaves. What is true is not some of the colonist but all of them insisted on converting the native Americans and slaves to Christianity. This is also true in mexico and South America with the Spanish.

The colonist had religion in mind from the very start. I have not got to the forming of the government yet maybe next chapter. I'll keep you updated with what I find.

They used religion to control the slaves and to connive the Indians.

In fact, the radical Puritan pastor Roger Williams (the man who established the first Baptist congregation in America) outraged the politicians of Massachusetts because Williams evangelized the Indians but warned them not to sign any deals with the government of Massachusetts.

 

[now faith]

It's more important to know what Christians are than what America is not.

Christians are citizens of Heaven, "pilgrims of the Diaspora," deployed to various countries on this earth to perform a mission of limited duration. Then we're going home.

Too many Christians in America do not know where their home is. They think their home is America and treasure being Americans. But where their tresure is, their hearts are as well, which is what neutralizes the power that Christians in America should have in the Holy Spirit for the good of the entire Body of Christ worldwide.

To the pilgrims of the Diaspora in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia, Japan, China, England, India, America, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. -- 1 Peter 1:1

I completely understand that the kingdom of God Does not evolve around America.

Historically great world powers have collapsed with moral decline.

We only have to look at our Bible to see Israel as a example,of turning away from God
Time and time again.

When any Nation seeks to put God first they prosper,when they turn away they are given up to their own lust.

America has turned so far away that God may have to apologize to Sodom.

People are bickering about church and state all the while 300,000 babies a year are being murders.

Men are seeking men for lust as well as women and Churches are retaining their right.

We live in a state of deception where in evil is good and good is evil.

All the while the Body of Christ is resolved to clamor about theology.

If we cannot agree something is very wrong,then how many will die to a eternity bound for Hell.

Pointing out that we were founded on Christian principles,should be apparent considering the lack of Faith in the Church today.

The problem is not look at those Pentecostal people or those Calvinist,or whom ever.

The problem is those other people are us,we are the problem.

We have allowed a box in our home and a small minority of unGodly people to rule over us
While we point fingers.

Don't think for one moment that God is not going to judge this country along with the world.

The remnants of the first 7 churches are still here,and will be at Christ second coming.

 

[Bluelion]

Keep in mind that Christianity is not (to Christians) a "religion," it's a relationship and rebirthing of Spirit. Now I ask, do you find in your studies fruits of the Spirit when these "Christians" dealt with non-Christians and those they perceived as a threat? Hate to pull the end-game card, but just look at the Crusades...and then compare it to the founding of America.

Thing is you can not judge any ones soul or each person based on a group.


So what I found jamestown the first settlement was for profit, they had indenture servants and slaves because they were all about profit.

Maryland was founded by lord balitmore who own the rights to the colony, he set maryland up for a safe haven for cathliolics.

Mass. was found by the pilgrims or separatist they were protestant seeking freedom of religion.

New Engalnd was founded by the puritans seeking to worship with out Catholic interference.

There you have 3 out of 4 states seeking religious freedom from Catholics. They were Christian Groups so how is it you say America was not found on Christian principles?

James town did not last and was the one place seeking profits over Christian freedom.

The 3 christian states had no slaves and worked well with the native Americans. Seems you blame everything that happen on the Christians and not the people who deserve it which were those seeking profit only.

It was not war which killed so many Native Americans it was disease.

now lets add another state pa they were found by Quakers another Christian religious group.

Anyone who says Christianity did not play a major part in the forming America simply does not know history.

 

[Bluelion]

I completely understand that the kingdom of God Does not evolve around America.

Historically great world powers have collapsed with moral decline.

We only have to look at our Bible to see Israel as a example,of turning away from God
Time and time again.

When any Nation seeks to put God first they prosper,when they turn away they are given up to their own lust.

America has turned so far away that God may have to apologize to Sodom.

People are bickering about church and state all the while 300,000 babies a year are being murders.

Men are seeking men for lust as well as women and Churches are retaining their right.

We live in a state of deception where in evil is good and good is evil.

All the while the Body of Christ is resolved to clamor about theology.

If we cannot agree something is very wrong,then how many will die to a eternity bound for Hell.

Pointing out that we were founded on Christian principles,should be apparent considering the lack of Faith in the Church today.

The problem is not look at those Pentecostal people or those Calvinist,or whom ever.

The problem is those other people are us,we are the problem.

We have allowed a box in our home and a small minority of unGodly people to rule over us
While we point fingers.

Don't think for one moment that God is not going to judge this country along with the world.

The remnants of the first 7 churches are still here,and will be at Christ second coming.

I agree and that is the point of the OP. People like to fight so much on details, I wonder if they ever think why they like to fight so much on little points. Its satan, he gives energy to the fight so people feel good doing it.

Fact is if you look at Israel and what happen to them over and over again, they were always turning away from God then being conquered then turning back to God in which prosperity once again came from God.

Take the empires of history in the Bible it tells us God gave them time to repent and when they did not he warned them then they fell when they would not turn from there sin.That is the pattern.

What we are seeing now is America is being warned, what comes next is the great fall. This country has become all about Greed. It did not use to be that way. In my Dads time back in the 50's people worked for a company for 20 years retired and the company took care of them. Now companies fire employees few years before retirement so they don't have to pay them retirement. People will not hire full time employees they hire part time so they don't have to pay them health benefits, and then expect full time work from them. What is sad is even non profit organizations are doing this, I was in the field. These are suppose to be good groups who help the poor, homeless, and abused all the time abusing their employees. Is that not Hypercritical?

I could write pages about all the ungodly things going on in America today, and it was not like that just 60 years ago. Things are moving fast.

 

[98cwitr]

Thing is you can not judge any ones soul or each person based on a group.

If I was a member of the KKK, what would your perception of me be?

"It was not war which killed so many Native Americans it was disease."

Tell it to every indian and their family who was shot by a settler or the US government

http://www.history.com/topics/american-indian-wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars

You're laying incorrect facts out there without doing the research. Check your facts man.

Indians did not hold to the concept of "personally owned property." Earth was communal and no one could "own" it in their eyes at the time. Wow...sounds a lot like what Christianity preaches huh?

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

"These deluded creatures, you see, have persuaded themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, which explains the contempt of death and willing self-sacrifice so common among them. It was impressed on them too by their lawgiver that from the moment they are converted, deny the gods of Greece, worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws, they are all brothers. They take his instructions completely on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods and hold them in common ownership. So any adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who knows the world, has only to get among these simple souls and his fortune is quickly made; he plays with them."

-Lucian of Samosata

I dare to say that the Indians were more "Christian" acting than our founding government. So much for these "Christian principals" you speak of.

 

[Bluelion]

If I was a member of the KKK, what would your perception of me be?

"It was not war which killed so many Native Americans it was disease."

Tell it to every indian and their family who was shot by a settler or the US government

American-Indian Wars — History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
American Indian Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're laying incorrect facts out there without doing the research. Check your facts man.

Indians did not hold to the concept of "personally owned property." Earth was communal and no one could "own" it in their eyes at the time. Wow...sounds a lot like what Christianity preaches huh?





I dare to say that the Indians were more "Christian" acting than our founding government. So much for these "Christian principals" you speak of.

My facts come from a college history course on American history not the internet. I already told you wikipedia is not a creditable source.

I guess we really have nothing to talk about, you want to be right, judge a group of people you never met and never talked to. Fact is disease wiped out millions of Indians not war. The Indians got along with the pilgrims and other Christian settlements I already explain that it was those seeking a profit who treated the Indians poorly.

So really i think we are done here because it does not matter what i find you will following the teaching of not creditable sources. The internet does not trump college teaching, sorry.

 

[RDKirk]

I completely understand that the kingdom of God Does not evolve around America.

Historically great world powers have collapsed with moral decline.

However, Rome had been Christian for over a century when it was overrun, and was morally superior to when it was a pagan empire.

We only have to look at our Bible to see Israel as a example,of turning away from God
Time and time again.

When any Nation seeks to put God first they prosper,when they turn away they are given up to their own lust.

America has turned so far away that God may have to apologize to Sodom.

I would disagree that America as a nation had ever put God first.

People are bickering about church and state all the while 300,000 babies a year are being murders.

Men are seeking men for lust as well as women and Churches are retaining their right.

We live in a state of deception where in evil is good and good is evil.

All the while the Body of Christ is resolved to clamor about theology.

If we cannot agree something is very wrong,then how many will die to a eternity bound for Hell.

Pointing out that we were founded on Christian principles,should be apparent considering the lack of Faith in the Church today.

The problem is not look at those Pentecostal people or those Calvinist,or whom ever.

The problem is those other people are us,we are the problem.

We have allowed a box in our home and a small minority of unGodly people to rule over us
While we point fingers.

Don't think for one moment that God is not going to judge this country along with the world.

The remnants of the first 7 churches are still here,and will be at Christ second coming.

If you actually believe all that, why would you not want the Church separated from the state? Why chain yourself to railing of a sinking ship?

No, I think what too many Christians in America love this sinking ship and are willing to die trying to keep it afloat.

 

[RDKirk]

My facts come from a college history course on American history not the internet. I already told you wikipedia is not a creditable source.

I guess we really have nothing to talk about, you want to be right, judge a group of people you never met and never talked to. Fact is disease wiped out millions of Indians not war. The Indians got along with the pilgrims and other Christian settlements I already explain that it was those seeking a profit who treated the Indians poorly.

So really i think we are done here because it does not matter what i find you will following the teaching of not creditable sources. The internet does not trump college teaching, sorry.

Wait. What?

You're a Christian and you're actually going to assert that everything you were taught in college must be true?

 

[Legionwrex]

America used to be so great and Godly. Now it sucks, but compared to the state of other countries I'd say it's still one of the most Christian Nations in the World (that's not saying much).

Perhaps we will see a 3rd Great Awakening in our lifetimes. Wouldn't that be great?

 

[Bluelion]

Wait. What?

You're a Christian and you're actually going to assert that everything you were taught in college must be true?

I go to a Christian college. College is the standard, unless you would like to try to discredit college in which case you would be saying the standard of education is not relevant. It is certainly more reliable than what you read on the internet.

 

[Boidae]

My facts come from a college history course on American history not the internet. I already told you wikipedia is not a creditable source.

I guess we really have nothing to talk about, you want to be right, judge a group of people you never met and never talked to. Fact is disease wiped out millions of Indians not war. The Indians got along with the pilgrims and other Christian settlements I already explain that it was those seeking a profit who treated the Indians poorly.

So really i think we are done here because it does not matter what i find you will following the teaching of not creditable sources. The internet does not trump college teaching, sorry.

You do realize that the Native Americans were forced out of their homes and lands and into reservations, correct? Those that defended themselves were killed or enslaved.

In the quest to convert the Native Americans to Christianity, many were murdered, raped, enslaved and fell victim to Spanish raids. There were long gibbets built, so that the Native Americans' toes would just touch the ground to prevent strangling in honor of Christ and his twelve apostles. They also wrapped their bodies in straw and burnt them alive.

Then there was smallpox.

Ever hear of the Trail of Tears? I wrote a 1000 word essay on that very topic for American History in college. I did so because I am part Cherokee.

 

[RDKirk]

I go to a Christian college. College is the standard, unless you would like to try to discredit college in which case you would be saying the standard of education is not relevant. It is certainly more reliable than what you read on the internet.

Some colleges are better than others, and some colleges are distinctly biased in their history offerings.

If all your college taught you about American government relations with the Indians was "The Indians got along with the pilgrims and other Christian settlements I already explain that it was those seeking a profit who treated the Indians poorly" then your American history must not have progressed even as far as the French and Indian war or to the removal of the "Five Civilized Tribes" from the southeast or to the post-Civil War conflicts of the west.

"Those seeking a profit" makes up virtually all of American history. If your instruction left out the profit seekers in America, your history course was quite deficient.