Am I The Only One

April_Rose said:

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged?

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Why even have judgement then? Its all make believe in the end?



Why are the unbelievers already judged and condemned? How can that be?


The Father was teaching us while we were being drawn to Him! Those who listened to Him the Father will hand over to the Son so we can begin to see the One who had been drawing us! We will see the who we wanted to be drawn by in Jesus and will automatically want to believe in Him! He is the Visible Father to us!!!!!!!!!!

We believed in Jesus because we passed the testing of our souls by the Father. Before you ever believed in Jesus the Father had already been drawing you to Himself invisibly and quietly. Thoughts were entering your mind. You were not knowing where they were coming from. So that made you free to accept or reject them. In retrospect I now know I used to think they were my own thoughts... We all probably do. They may have seemed supernatural in its own way, but just our thoughts to consider. That is why those who reject God feel free to do so. They think its their own thoughts they are rejecting and hating.


All those who the Father was able to draw to Himself? What does He do next? He then gives to the Son to believe in the Son.

As for those who had rejected the drawing of the Father? The Father does not give them to the Son. So, they can not find themselves believing in Jesus when His name is presented. They believe not. For the Father condemned them already for having rejected His drawing them! "They are condemned already."

No one is condemned for not believing in Jesus name. They were already condemned for rejecting the Father's drawing of them! Rejecting the name of Jesus is only symptomatic and not the cause for their condemnation! When they rejected the Father's drawing they will find themselves unable to believe in Jesus.


We were able to find ourselves able to believe in Jesus because we were not condemned by the Father. For we accepted the Father's drawing us!

It takes time to sink in.

grace and peace ..........

FaithWillDo said:

Dear April Rose,
As you are seeming to say, I too, believe that Christ is truly the savior of the world. Our salvation is 100% His work. And since it is 100% His work, how can He fail? He can't. For that reason, mankind's salvation is assured.

However, our salvation is a process (pathway) that Christ takes us through. It also has an order: the Elect are first (First-Fruits) in this age and then all others in the final age.

Judgment is a necessary part of the pathway to salvation.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

"Fire" is a spiritual symbol for the Christ’s judgment. Everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit AND with fire.

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (the Day of the Lord) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Judgment is a necessary because our Old Man (carnal nature) must be destroyed from within us. The Lake of Fire is the spiritual symbol used in the book of Revelation to represent that judgment.

Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the the LAKE OF FIRE.

Most of the world will be judged in the Lake of Fire. However, for Christ's Elect (those have been chosen from the foundation of the world), they will be judged now in this present age before they physically die. They are the First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Since the Elect are FIRST to experience the death of their Old Man, it can be said that they experience the FIRST death. In the final age, all others will experience the SECOND death in the Lake of Fire. The Elect are first and everyone else is second.

Scripture says that BOTH the judgment of the Elect in this age and the judgment of those cast into the Lake of Fire is a time of GREAT tribulation:

Here is the verse which speaks of the judgment of the Elect:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the verse which speaks of the judgment of the lost who are cast into the Lake of Fire:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In the end, all mankind will be saved through judgment and made righteous (white robes):

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Here is an interesting verse:

Isa 66:16 For by FIRE and by his SWORD will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Here is my literal translation: For by judgment and the Word of God, the Lord will plead with all mankind: and the slain of the Lord (the Old Man) will be many (all mankind).

All the prophetic scriptures that speak of death and destruction are speaking about the judgment of our Old Man. That judgment starts when Christ comes to an fallen away believer (who has only received the Early Rain of the Spirit) a "second" time. This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes with the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and with judgment for the Old Man (FIRE). It is a spiritual event within a person and cannot be seen with human eyes. It is the time of "conversion" and is when the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord is when Christ reigns from within an individual over their Old Man, whose time of judgment has come. This judgment lasts for a "thousand years".

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The "thousand years" is a spiritual term and is not literal time. It is understood this way: 10x10x10. Ten is the number which represents the completeness of our flesh (our carnal nature). Three is the number which represents a complete spiritual process. The spiritual process in this case is the judgment of our Old Man until he is destroyed. After the judgment is complete, all that will remain is a child of God who is governed solely by the Holy Spirit. Never again will the person sin.

Peter described the Day of the Lord this way:

2Pet 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

When Christ come to a fallen away believer with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He comes as a thief in the night. He comes as a thief in the night because He comes at a time when we are dwelling in "darkness" and He comes to us unexpectedly (suddenly). When He comes, He destroys our "heaven and earth" (our spiritual makeup within us which produces the Old Man) through judgment. But from that destruction, Christ will create a New Heaven and Earth" within us (a child of God). This is conversion.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The spiritual term "sea" represents mankind, the place where we dwell. After all is complete, mankind will no longer exist (no more sea) because we have all been destroyed and "born again". At that time, we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

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Salvation is God's work, but that does not assure salvation for all. There is response of humans involved. Humans everywhere are commanded to repent. Salvation is dependent on that. Yet clearly many remain unrepentant, all the life they are still given.

FredVB said:

Salvation is God's work, but that does not assure salvation for all. There is response of humans involved. Humans everywhere are commanded to repent. Salvation is dependent on that. Yet clearly many remain unrepentant, all the life they are still given.

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Your post is contradictory.
First you say that "Salvation is God's work...", and then you say, "Salvation is dependent on [repentance]", thus our work. Which is it?

You might be confusing repentance with confession. Common mistake.

FredVB said:

Salvation is God's work, but that does not assure salvation for all. There is response of humans involved. Humans everywhere are commanded to repent. Salvation is dependent on that. Yet clearly many remain unrepentant, all the life they are still given.

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Dear FredVB,
The Jesus I know never fails at anything and certainly not the most important thing in all history. Mankind's salvation is completely assured because it is 100% the work of Christ. If you believe that a person must contribute to His work in order to be saved, then you have a "works" based belief system. Did you not read the verses I posted?

Look at this scripture below, it leaves no room for uncertainty. However, a person must have faith (which is a gift from Christ) in order to believe that Christ can actually do it.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I know some people want to translate the phrase "will have" (thelo) as "desires", BUT that makes no sense. The verse needs to say "will have" to support the event that will later be "testified" to have happened. The word "desires" does not require anything to be accomplished. It is an emotion. And if Christ only desires to save us, why would it need to be proven to be true at some future date? An emotion can be proven in the present. The translation of "desires" (or any other word) in verse 4 makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The only reasonable conclusion is that the verse says that Christ will save all mankind and have all mankind come unto the knowledge of the truth. When that day arrives, then Christ's word will be testified to be true.

Even if a person translates "thelo" as "desires", it doesn't change the meaning of the verse since God ALWAYS gets all His desires. Since God desires to save all mankind, it will happen.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If you think that mankind's "will" is too strong for God to overcome, then you would be wrong:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God's work of saving mankind is now "spiritual" work which means it is done "within" mankind. God accomplishes His "will" by changing man's heart to match to His "will".

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

A person's salvation ONLY happens in response to the work Christ does within us FIRST. He must come to each of us and gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and Faith. Until that happens, NO ONE can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him out.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In this lost condition we all have from birth, the ONLY WAY for a person to be saved is for Christ to come to us and change us from within. Once Christ gives us the Spirit (unknowingly to us), we ALWAYS confess Him as Lord. We can't reject Him or call Him "accursed".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Paul is the pattern for how Christ saves us:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was "called out" on the Damascus Road when Christ came to him uninvited and gave him the Holy Spirit (the Early Rain). Paul immediately fell to the earth and called Jesus "Lord".

This event of the Early Rain of the Spirit is how an unbeliever becomes a believer. It is not by their "free will" choice that it happens. Paul hated Christ and was on his way to persecute Christians. He had no intention of becoming a Christian himself. But Paul did become a "called out" Christian because it was God's "will" for it to happen. Christ came to Paul uninvited and did His work within Paul, without Paul's permission. Paul wasn't even aware that Christ did this work within him because it was "spiritual" work which could not be seen with human eyes. But we do know that it happened because of the evidence of Paul's confession and his willingness to obey Christ.

This is the only way an unbeliever can become a Christian because man's spiritual condition from birth is "marred". This marred spiritual condition causes us all to become carnally minded. This is why mankind sins. Even Adam and Eve were carnally minded BEFORE they sinned and in fact, it was the reason WHY they sinned. And as God's Word says, the carnal mind hates the ways of God and cannot understand Him. Nor does the carnal mind seek God out from its own "choice" to do so. Mankind is utterly lost and cannot do anything to save themselves. Because of this truth, Christ MUST come to us and do all the work of saving us and He does so without our invitation or permission.

God created mankind subject to vanity without our permission and He will make us righteous without our permission:

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God made us spiritually "marred" and He will make us into a new vessel without our permission:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, AS SEEMED GOOD TO THE POTTER to make it.

Our God truly loves us and will do all that is necessary to save us. He does His work "within" us and changes our hearts and minds to accept Him.

Joe

April_Rose said:

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

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April Rose, you are not by any means the only one. As a matter of fact, around half of the "early church fathers," those who pastored and wrote in the first century AD, believed in Ultimate Reconciliation. Note that 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus died not only for "our" sins only, but for those of "the whole world." You might find That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart an encouraging read.

Saint Steven said:

Your post is contradictory.
First you say that "Salvation is God's work...", and then you say, "Salvation is dependent on [repentance]", thus our work. Which is it?

You might be confusing repentance with confession. Common mistake.

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Why would you say that? I never mentioned confession. Repentance is needed and it is called for in the Bible. And the Bible shows it is God whose work saves believers. It is not the Bible confusing things and being contradictory. You might be confusing repentance with works. Works mean something in the Bible, but it is not about repentance. God whose work saves chooses those to save on an actual basis.

FredVB said:

God whose work saves chooses those to save on an actual basis.

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And that basis is repentance? (conditional salvation)
Do you believe in death bed confessions? (no repentance)

April_Rose said:

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged?

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Then...Why would they have an excuse?

Those who believe in Christ reveal that they have no excuse. For those who believe range anywhere from low IQ to genius. What excuse would the judged have for why they were judged? Satan and his angels would like to know that answer.

genez said:

Then...Why would they have an excuse?

Those who believe in Christ reveal that they have no excuse. For those who believe range anywhere from low IQ to genius. What excuse would the judged have for why they were judged? Satan and his angels would like to know that answer.

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If that is in reference to Romans chapter two, you are making claims outside of the text. Not what it says.

Saint Steven said:

And that basis is repentance? (conditional salvation)
Do you believe in death bed confessions? (no repentance)

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There is call, over and over and over, in the Bible, to repentance. Why would that be if repentance is not relevant to God saving people? Jesus required coming to repentance, it is relevant for it. What about death bed confessions? To God? Just confessing to a crime, or some crimes? What context is being referred to? If there is not repentance to God, no, there would not be salvation with that. Before dying they could repent to God, if they did, coming to Christ in faith with that, they could be saved. The thief on the cross beside Jesus when he was on his cross, who did that, was saved then, though his life here was over. Our works won't save us. But God saves us and it will happen when we repent coming to Christ in faith, and God provides God's grace.

FredVB said:

There is call, over and over and over, in the Bible, to repentance. Why would that be if repentance is not relevant to God saving people? Jesus required coming to repentance, it is relevant for it. What about death bed confessions? To God? Just confessing to a crime, or some crimes? What context is being referred to? If there is not repentance to God, no, there would not be salvation with that. Before dying they could repent to God, if they did, coming to Christ in faith with that, they could be saved. The thief on the cross beside Jesus when he was on his cross, who did that, was saved then, though his life here was over. Our works won't save us. But God saves us and it will happen when we repent coming to Christ in faith, and God provides God's grace.

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Do you understand the difference between confession and repentance? Some people use the terms synonymously, but they are two different things.

Saint Steven said:
And that basis is repentance? (conditional salvation)
Do you believe in death bed confessions? (no repentance)

Sabertooth said:

I imagine context is difficult for you, if you are confused by Christianity.

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More likely confused by what Christians say about Christianity. The two don't overlap as much as one would hope.

d taylor said:

When unbelievers are judged (at the great white throne) that is not a judgment to see if they go to the lake of fire. The judgment is to determined their level or position in the lake of fire. The judgment is based of of works not sins, the better a person was in their earthly life, the better their position in the lake of fire.

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So some get tortured less than others? But most people ever born end up being tortured forever one way or the other, right?

friend of said:

The verse says that no unclean thing shall pass through them. Reprobates are unclean

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That's why there's purgatory. (Watch this one take on a life of its own...)

plain jayne said:

ALL hearts are desperately wicked. Only those changed by Christ are saved.

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So most were created for eternal torture.

Jipsah said:

So some get tortured less than others? But most people ever born end up being tortured forever one way or the other, right?

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Never have seen in The Bible where people in the lake of fire are stated as being tortured.

d taylor said:

Never have seen in The Bible where people in the lake of fire are stated as being tortured.

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I did a long word study on "fire" and related words. In doing so I discovered something not well understood by most folks, even Christians I think. It is that God refines us, purifies us. God uses the metaphor of refining raw ore by the application of what I call Godfire to burn away the dross, even the base metals, until the silver and gold are left. Our English word "purify" has the Greek "pur" as its root, and that means "fire." Besides depicting Himself as a Refiner, God also describes Himself as Soap, so cleansing is the overt meaning, not torment.

Lazarus Short said:

I did a long word study on "fire" and related words. In doing so I discovered something not well understood by most folks, even Christians I think. It is that God refines us, purifies us. God uses the metaphor of refining raw ore by the application of what I call Godfire to burn away the dross, even the base metals, until the silver and gold are left. Our English word "purify" has the Greek "pur" as its root, and that means "fire." Besides depicting Himself as a Refiner, God also describes Himself as Soap, so cleansing is the overt meaning, not torment.

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It will be for the cleansing of those alive in God's Kingdom. The people in torments will no longer be able to have a hateful, envious, murderous thought towards God's free. Evil works in the freedom to concentrate and think hateful things towards those they despise. Constant torment will cause a constant preoccupation with themselves only, not being able to hate anyone outside of themselves. .

People will most definitely be in the Lake of Fire. Sharing the same fate as Satan and his angels.




Jesus in Mat 25, was speaking against those who refused to aid the persecuted believers during the great tribulation. These ones were cold-hearted and only concerned for themselves in the face of seeing others suffering and in need of help and shelter. They are the kind that would not report you today to the federal government if it should impose tyrannical regulations on the people and some resisted.






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The Bible states plainly that, the false prophet, antichrist and satan will be tortured for eternity. But the Bible stops short of out right saying this when it speaks to people being cast into the lake of fire.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

d taylor said:

The Bible states plainly that, the false prophet, antichrist and satan will be tortured for eternity. But the Bible stops short of out right saying this when it speaks to people being cast into the lake of fire.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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The false prophet would have been a human being.
I think Matthew 25:46 answers what happens to those in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is called "the second death" twice but no scripture ever says that anyone or anything is thrown into the lake of fire then they die.