Am I The Only One

[Saint Steven]

... God's justice is about setting right, not about getting even. ...

Well said!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Why would the Creator of the whole universe care about getting even?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Clearly the three doctrinal views of the final judgement are in conflict.
- Damnationism says the damned will be in eternal conscious torment.
- Annihilationism says the damned will be incinerated and cease to exist.
- Universal Restorationism says that God will restore all things to life, including "the damned".

Previous post:
All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet are in conflict.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

You can't really brush aside the supporting scripture for one view in favor of another. All scripture is valid. What you seem to be claiming is that 1Tim.4:10 is not valid due to your understanding of the "narrow way".

I have noticed a few features of choice #1

1. Damnation involves eternal conscious torment in a place called "Hell."

2. "Hell" is translated from four words, at least two of which come from the language of the pagan Greeks, and from their pagan mythology.

3. "Hades" is the best word in the Greek for the Hebrew "Sheol," but "hades" carries with it some unfortunate pagan connotations.

4. Remembering that the ancestors of the classical Greeks came down from the North, I discovered that the old, pagan languages of Northern Europe had related words like "hel," "hell," "helle," "halja" and the like.

5. Later, I found "Hel" in Norse mythology: she was the supposed ruler of her afterlife ream of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." It was, they thought, where you went if you did not rate going to Valhalla.

6. "Hel," "Hell" and "Helle" are all found in the epic of "Beowulf," which contains both pagan and Christian elements.

7. Later, "Hel" and "Hell" show up in the 1611 KJV. Do you see yet how pagan words came in and got (dare I say it?) baptized?

8. I also have noticed that the Bible never describes Hell, but depictions of it in Christian art are very much like what we see in the art of other religions, Tibetan Buddhist in particular.

9. Our views of Hell are largely controlled by epic poetry (Dante and Milton), prose (Mary K. Baxter and others), plus cartoons, stories and movies almost without number.

10. Why not believe the Bible, minus the bad translating, and put away such pagan notions? I have other ways to discredit Hell, but pointing out the history of the word should be enough.

 

[Der Alte]

I have noticed a few features of choice #1
1. Damnation involves eternal conscious torment in a place called "Hell."
2. "Hell" is translated from four words, at least two of which come from the language of the pagan Greeks, and from their pagan mythology.
3. "Hades" is the best word in the Greek for the Hebrew "Sheol," but "hades" carries with it some unfortunate pagan connotations.
4. Remembering that the ancestors of the classical Greeks came down from the North, I discovered that the old, pagan languages of Northern Europe had related words like "hel," "hell," "helle," "halja" and the like.
5. Later, I found "Hel" in Norse mythology: she was the supposed ruler of her afterlife ream of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." It was, they thought, where you went if you did not rate going to Valhalla.
6. "Hel," "Hell" and "Helle" are all found in the epic of "Beowulf," which contains both pagan and Christian elements.
7. Later, "Hel" and "Hell" show up in the 1611 KJV. Do you see yet how pagan words came in and got (dare I say it?) baptized?
8. I also have noticed that the Bible never describes Hell, but depictions of it in Christian art are very much like what we see in the art of other religions, Tibetan Buddhist in particular.
9. Our views of Hell are largely controlled by epic poetry (Dante and Milton), prose (Mary K. Baxter and others), plus cartoons, stories and movies almost without number.
10. Why not believe the Bible, minus the bad translating, and put away such pagan notions? I have other ways to discredit Hell, but pointing out the history of the word should be enough.

Mostly irrelevant bloviation.
What a word might have meant in another country, another language 100s of years ago is irrelevant unless a direct connection can be shown.
When we hear the word "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle for hauling large, heavy cargo not vegetables.
Today in German "hell" means bright. How can we connect that?
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any alleged bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Why would the Creator of the whole universe care about getting even?

I don't deny a retributive element (at least in some cases), where God gives sinners a taste of their own medicine - meanness, petulance, spite and cruelty, unbelief, self-righteousness, etc. That's what produces humility and repentance. But after the flames of condign justice boasts the living water of mercy. That's the Great Physician's healing grace that changes the heart. Stations on the salvation path?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Mostly irrelevant bloviation.
What a word might have meant in another country, another language 100s of years ago is irrelevant unless a direct connection can be shown.
When we hear the word "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle for hauling large, heavy cargo not vegetables.
Today in German "hell" means bright. How can we connect that?
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any alleged bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

"Bloviation" -now that's a good one, and I had to look it up. You always find terms to minimize your thread opponent, but this is a new low. Usually "nonsense" and "irrelevant" suffice. I have noticed that others are always wrong and Der Alte is always correct. BTW, I did not read much past "bloviation," having little interest in arguments which begin with insults. However, it was more than I usually read of your posts. Oh, while I'm thinking of it, thanks for the vocabulary lesson...

But seriously, I believe I did connect original word meanings with Norse mythology, their use in "Beowulf," the 1611 KJV and modern parlance. I can only suppose a heavy tome with hundreds of footnotes is required to impress you. I suppose ideas thrown out on a www discussion forum must be automatically suspect and therefore false.

I saw your old phrase "three irrefutable Jewish sources" and I'd like to ask you this:

Two of those sources are encyclopedias, so tell me how an encyclopedia, written and compiled by men, is irrefutable?

The other source is the Talmud, so tell me - if it is irrefutable, and since it blasts Jesus and His followers (Yes, I know a thing or two about the Talmud, so don't deny it.), why have you not converted to their religion?

 

[Der Alte]

"Bloviation" -now that's a good one, and I had to look it up. You always find terms to minimize your thread opponent, but this is a new low. Usually "nonsense" and "irrelevant" suffice. I have noticed that others are always wrong and Der Alte is always correct. BTW, I did not read much past "bloviation," having little interest in arguments which begin with insults. However, it was more than I usually read of your posts. Oh, while I'm thinking of it, thanks for the vocabulary lesson...

Some folks seem to think that anything they find on the 'net which seems to support their beliefs must be the truth. I try to research what I post with the same diligence that I used when working on my degrees. I try to only use credible sources something which might be accepted by a professor. I once submitted a paper in grad school the prof's assistant scrawled across it in red. "Do you consider this a professional source?" I thought to myself "Not any more I don't."

But seriously, I believe I did connect original word meanings with Norse mythology, their use in "Beowulf," the 1611 KJV and modern parlance. I can only suppose a heavy tome with hundreds of footnotes is required to impress you. I suppose ideas thrown out on a www discussion forum must be automatically suspect and therefore false.

See above response. Just because it is on the internet that doesn't mean it is true or credible.

I saw your old phrase "three irrefutable Jewish sources" and I'd like to ask you this:
Two of those sources are encyclopedias, so tell me how an encyclopedia, written and compiled by men, is irrefutable?
The other source is the Talmud, so tell me - if it is irrefutable, and since it blasts Jesus and His followers (Yes, I know a thing or two about the Talmud, so don't deny it.), why have you not converted to their religion?

What the Jews might have believed about Jesus or anything else is not really relevant. My sources are the only credible sources which document the faith and practice of the ancient Jews, what they believed etc. Do you know of any other credible, historical sources which will accurately document the faith and practice of Jews before and during the time of Jesus? If you happen to find any let me know and I will consider it. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Der Alte, please cite me a credible source that demonstrates that I only consulted www sources in my research. Actually, my most important sources were a very ordinary King James Bible and the Oxford English Dictionary. Your assumption in Post #347 about the internet is just another elitist tactic, and I don't buy it. Yes, I agree that the Talmud is a good source for what the Jews of a time and place believed, BUT parts of it are blasphemous from a Christian perspective, and I worry for you to say it is irrefutable. I fear that you are trying to serve two masters.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alte, please cite me a credible source that demonstrates that I only consulted www sources in my research. Actually, my most important sources were a very ordinary King James Bible and the Oxford English Dictionary. Your assumption in Post #347 about the internet is just another elitist tactic, and I don't buy it. Yes, I agree that the Talmud is a good source for what the Jews of a time and place believed, BUT parts of it are blasphemous from a Christian perspective, and I worry for you to say it is irrefutable. I fear that you are trying to serve two masters.

Although I explained it to you, and you seemed to not understand, I will revise my statement to something like

Concerning only the faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews these three incontrovertible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, are quoted below.
According to these sources among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom which are translated hades and gehenna in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Although I explained it to you, and you seemed to not understand, I will revise my statement to something like

Concerning only the faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews these three incontrovertible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, are quoted below.
According to these sources among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom which are translated hades and gehenna in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.​

I notice that these beliefs arose AFTER contact with the pagan Babylonians and Greeks. The books written before such contacts are oddly silent on such things, as far as I know.

BTW, our exchanges today reminded me of something the Spanish poet Garcia Lorca said, "Very often intellect is poetry's enemy because it is too much given to imitation, because it lifts the poet to a throne of sharp edges and makes him oblivious of the fact that he may suddenly be devoured by ants, or a great arsenic lobster may fall on his head."

 

[Der Alte]

I notice that these beliefs arose AFTER contact with the pagan Babylonians and Greeks. The books written before such contacts are oddly silent on such things, as far as I know. * * * *

Which may or may not be true and which Jesus did nothing to correct. Instead what Jesus taught about Gehenna, sheol, eternal punishment etc. mirrored the then existing belief in the place of eternal fiery punishment for the wicked. Jesus undoubtedly knew of the existing beliefs, shouldn't He have taught against those beliefs if they were not Biblical.?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Which may or may not be true and which Jesus did nothing to correct. Instead what Jesus taught about Gehenna, sheol, eternal punishment etc. mirrored the then existing belief in the place of eternal fiery punishment for the wicked. Jesus undoubtedly knew of the existing beliefs, shouldn't He have taught against those beliefs if they were not Biblical.?

At one point in my research on Hell, I took a close look at what Jesus said Himself about His Mission, why He was here in that time and place. Do you find any mention of theological discussion in those statements?

Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”



Matthew 9:13 – “…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



Matthew 10:34-35 – “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.”



Matthew 15:24 – “…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”



Matthew 18:11 – “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”



Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”



Mark 1:38 – “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”



Mark 2:17 – “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



Luke 4:18-19 – “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”



Luke 4:43 – “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”



Luke 5:31-32 – “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



Luke 9:56 – “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”



Luke 12:49 – “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?”



Luke 12:51 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”



Luke 19:10 – “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”



Luke 24:26 – “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?”



Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”



John 3:14-17 – “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”



John 4:34 – “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”



John 5:30 – “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”



John 5:43 – “I am come in my Father’s name…”



John 6:38-40 – “For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”



John 6:48,51 – “I am that bread of life…if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 7:28-29 – “…I am not come of myself…for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”



John 9:39 – “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.”



John 10:10 – “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”



John 12:27 – “Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.”



John 12:46 – “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”



John 15:22 – “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”



John 18:37 – “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”

 

[Der Alte]

At one point in my research on Hell, I took a close look at what Jesus said Himself about His Mission, why He was here in that time and place. Do you find any mention of theological discussion in those statements? * * *

Please explain to me how this relates to my post which you quoted?
I quoted several verses would you care to address them?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I was answering your post #351, which had no verse citations that I could see.

 

[Yarddog]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

I agree

 

[Der Alte]

Why would the Creator of the whole universe care about getting even?

Romans 12:19
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 10:30
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

 

[FredVB]

Clearly the three doctrinal views of the final judgement are in conflict.
- Damnationism says the damned will be in eternal conscious torment.
- Annihilationism says the damned will be incinerated and cease to exist.
- Universal Restorationism says that God will restore all things to life, including "the damned".

Previous post:
All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet are in conflict.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

You can't really brush aside the supporting scripture for one view in favor of another. All scripture is valid. What you seem to be claiming is that 1Tim.4:10 is not valid due to your understanding of the "narrow way".

It is nonsense to say there is claim that 1 Timothy 4:10 is not valid when it is the only one you are using for the position you are presenting, and you do not consider all of what is said there, to use it for that position.

Why does this verse not stop at "the savior of all people?" Why does it continue "and especially of those who believe?" Doesn't "all people" inherently include "those who believe?" Didn't Paul know that "all people" included "those who believe?"
Would Paul say in this one verse that the living God is the savior of all people and mean every single person who ever lived or will live, no matter what, and then say 23 categories of people will not inherit the kingdom of God?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

 

[Cormack]

am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged?

You’re not the only one, @April_Rose. Many posters here on CF agree with your thoughts and feelings on the subject, I find it encouraging to believe that unbelievers could still be saved after being judged for their bad deeds.

 

[GenemZ]

You’re not the only one, @April_Rose. Many posters here on CF agree with your thoughts and feelings on the subject, I find it encouraging to believe that unbelievers could still be saved after being judged for their bad deeds.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not found written
in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:14-15

Make that go away?



Many are wrong. They are making their feelings (emotions) their god.

God is not a man that He should compromise His righteousness to be approved of by men. He has absolute righteousness. He will not tolerate what men in their sentimentality will endure. God does not function with "wishful thinking."

I find it encouraging to believe that unbelievers could still be saved after being judged for their bad deeds.

That (distortion) was taken from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is
laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this
foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,
straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will
declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will
test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which
he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s
work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be
saved, yet so as through fire."​

Note! That only speaks about BELIEVERS!

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid,
which is Jesus Christ."​

That passage is saying a believer can choose to believe false teachings and build his works upon them... and have all his works burned when the Lord evaluates the believers. But? Because he believed in the foundation - Jesus Christ? Though all his deeds (works) will be destroyed in flames (wood, hay, and straw), he will be saved as a man is saved who runs out of a burning house.

We can not make our emotions into our god. If one does? He will resent the Word of God when presented accurately.. and gulp down the 'blue pill.'

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not found written
in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:14-15​

God does not change....

 

[FaithWillDo]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

Dear April Rose,
As you are seeming to say, I too, believe that Christ is truly the savior of the world. Our salvation is 100% His work. And since it is 100% His work, how can He fail? He can't. For that reason, mankind's salvation is assured.

However, our salvation is a process (pathway) that Christ takes us through. It also has an order: the Elect are first (First-Fruits) in this age and then all others in the final age.

Judgment is a necessary part of the pathway to salvation.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

"Fire" is a spiritual symbol for the Christ’s judgment. Everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit AND with fire.

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (the Day of the Lord) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Judgment is a necessary because our Old Man (carnal nature) must be destroyed from within us. The Lake of Fire is the spiritual symbol used in the book of Revelation to represent that judgment.

Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the the LAKE OF FIRE.

Most of the world will be judged in the Lake of Fire. However, for Christ's Elect (those have been chosen from the foundation of the world), they will be judged now in this present age before they physically die. They are the First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Since the Elect are FIRST to experience the death of their Old Man, it can be said that they experience the FIRST death. In the final age, all others will experience the SECOND death in the Lake of Fire. The Elect are first and everyone else is second.

Scripture says that BOTH the judgment of the Elect in this age and the judgment of those cast into the Lake of Fire is a time of GREAT tribulation:

Here is the verse which speaks of the judgment of the Elect:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the verse which speaks of the judgment of the lost who are cast into the Lake of Fire:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In the end, all mankind will be saved through judgment and made righteous (white robes):

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Here is an interesting verse:

Isa 66:16 For by FIRE and by his SWORD will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Here is my literal translation: For by judgment and the Word of God, the Lord will plead with all mankind: and the slain of the Lord (the Old Man) will be many (all mankind).

All the prophetic scriptures that speak of death and destruction are speaking about the judgment of our Old Man. That judgment starts when Christ comes to an fallen away believer (who has only received the Early Rain of the Spirit) a "second" time. This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes with the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and with judgment for the Old Man (FIRE). It is a spiritual event within a person and cannot be seen with human eyes. It is the time of "conversion" and is when the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord is when Christ reigns from within an individual over their Old Man, whose time of judgment has come. This judgment lasts for a "thousand years".

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The "thousand years" is a spiritual term and is not literal time. It is understood this way: 10x10x10. Ten is the number which represents the completeness of our flesh (our carnal nature). Three is the number which represents a complete spiritual process. The spiritual process in this case is the judgment of our Old Man until he is destroyed. After the judgment is complete, all that will remain is a child of God who is governed solely by the Holy Spirit. Never again will the person sin.

Peter described the Day of the Lord this way:

2Pet 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

When Christ come to a fallen away believer with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He comes as a thief in the night. He comes as a thief in the night because He comes at a time when we are dwelling in "darkness" and He comes to us unexpectedly (suddenly). When He comes, He destroys our "heaven and earth" (our spiritual makeup within us which produces the Old Man) through judgment. But from that destruction, Christ will create a New Heaven and Earth" within us (a child of God). This is conversion.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The spiritual term "sea" represents mankind, the place where we dwell. After all is complete, mankind will no longer exist (no more sea) because we have all been destroyed and "born again". At that time, we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Joe