Am I reading this right?

[Naomi4Christ]

I don't actively reject the Roman Catholic Church. I live in England and the natural choice there is to go to an Anglican church - and that suits me just fine. No need to look any further. But from what I know about the RCC, it would be at the bottom of my list of choices.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

From:
So I don't have salvation?

Are you "knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commiting the sins of heresy and rejecting divinely revealed doctrine"?


Here's how it works:
If God has shown you that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and called you to it, then you must obey.
If God has not made this plain to you, then you do no wrong in following your own understanding.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[thereselittleflower]

QUOTED from TLF:

Yep, wrong! At least the way he meant it.



But I have to wonder if some believe they can be saved if they are separated from the Body of Christ?

I have to wonder if some believe they can KNOWINGLY (meaning they have full knowledge what they are rejecting is true) and DELIBERATELY reject truth, and still be joined to the Body of Christ . . . ?

​

That is my point though. I am not separated from the Body of Christ if I am not affiliated with the Catholic Church.

You could or could not be . .. I don't know . . . I am not saying that you are one way or the other. . . I will not pass that kind of judgement on anyone . . I also don't know the true state of your heart, so I can't say I agree or disagree. I beleive you are part of the Body of Chirst, but I don't know any more than you know if I am.

The body of Christ, whether people want to believe it or not, is the Universal Church, containing ALL those people who both INSIDE and OUTSIDE the Catholic Church have met Christ personally and excepted Him as their Saviour and believed on His name. [/quot]

That's a starting point, and we agree in a very general way . . the Catholic Church believes this as well, though we would probably state it a little differently.

I know that this is not excepted by a lot of people, but it is the heart of what I am trying to say and it is the truth.

We are not disagreeing in any essential way here . .

Another way to say it from our perspective is - We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not.

Does that make sense?

We beleive the Church is both visible and invisible. We know where it is visibly . .we do not know where it is invisibly . . ie we cannot judge the heart of another and consign them to hell or heaven.

How narrow a view that only those in this one body of believers can be saved, when there are lots of other believers in the world!

Who has this view in this thread?

A Catholic who walks away from the Catholic Church is no more or less damned then anyone else.

True . . .we are all held accountable for the truth we know . ..

But going back to what I said in my post you quoted, if we KNOWINGLY (meaning we have full knowledge what we are rejecting is true) and DELIBERATELY reject truth, are we still be joined to the Body of Christ?

Are we still joined to Christ who is Truth Himself if we reject truth in such a fashion?

It is possible that they finally came to the conclusion that they disagreed with some of its teachings. God would and does understand that, otherwise I could not be saved apart from the Catholic Church.

God knows the heart . . . I don't know your heart. I don't know why you disagreed, what you knew before, what you really know to be true, or if you are genuinely in a place where you truly don't know that some of the teachings of the Church are true . . . I will never pass judgement on you in such a way.

In any case, what the words we have been debating say is that you have to know it is the truth and then deliberately reject what you know to be the truth to be in such a state. . .

Can one deliberately reject what one knows is truth and still be joined to TRUTH Himself?

This is what I meant when I said that the Catholic Church is not the Jews of the New Testament, which Peter taught, and it is not the Gentiles to where Paul felt led to go. The body of Christ is not separated by those things, it is one and huge family of believers regardless of if you except the Catholic teachings or not.

Believe me I used to see things exactly the same way.

I agree that the body of Christ is not separated by whether we were a Jew or Gentile BEFORE we come into the One Body which is Christ's, but I think it is wrong to use this analogy to justify the many divisions which are evidenced in the Christian faith today or to brush them aside . . . It is wrong, in my opinion, to take the state of things that existed BEFORE we come to Chirst to justify divisions IN Christendom today.

If we believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that should mean something . . it should mean that we are indeed One . . One in faith, Holy -separated unto God in unity of that same faith, which is Catholic ie Universal - all believing the same faith, and Apostolic - the same faith handed down by the apostles . . .

We have so many different chrsitian groups claiming to be this, claiming to hold to that faith handed down by the apostles, yet disagreing as to what that faith is . .

Yes there are people in these various faith groups who belong to Christ, but which faith group can we point people to and say, "here is where you can go to learn and receive the teachings of the Apostles, the One, Holy, Caholic and Apostolic faith"?

See, it is not enough that there are individuals who belong to Christ in the various christian groups . . .

Who these are are hidden . . they comprise the invisible Church of God.

But how is that enough for a world that needs Christ?

Christ said we are to be a city set on a hill . . . a lamp shining in the darkness . . . He was not speaking about us individually, but of His Church, His Body collectively . . .

He was speaking of His Church being VERY VISIBLE to the world . . . a beacon people could see and be drawn to . . . A City on a Hill that can be seen and found . . .



Jesus said to let our light shine before men . . .this metaphor refers to

2) c) that which is exposed to the view of all, openly, publicly.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1133730821-7166.html

​

These images do not concern an invisilbe Church but a highly VISIBLE Church . . .



It has been observed that the greatest hinderance to people converting the the Christian faith is the plethora of contradicting christian groups all claiming to be right, yet contradicting each other in so many ways . . .

People know intuitively that if a God exists, if He is who we say He is, then He is not the author of confusion, which is what all these divisions present them with . . confusion.


This confusion is not what Jesus was speaking of when He said that we are a city set on a hill . . .

We are to be ONE city, set on ONE hill, not a myriad of little cities and towns each set on their own inidividual hills saying "Here! We have thet truth, we have more truth than they do!"

What is the wolrd supposed to do with such a thing? It is sheer confusion to them . ..


This is not what Christ described . . . So there has to be a VISIBLE Church such a Christ described . .. ONE city set on a hill that is highly visible and exposed to the view of all, openly and publicly.

After deep, intense prayerful searching and study spanning 3 years, I have found that One city, visible Church to be the Catholic Church.

To this all members of the Body of Christ are joined, whether formally or not.

The fact that a believer leaves the Christian Church, and decides that it is all nonesense, is one thing. Only God knows if that person is truly saved or not. It is not for us to judge.

The same with any who leave the Catholic Church, who depart from the truth in some aspect . . .

The same with anyone who is part of the Catholic Church.

Just because someone is formally a part of the Catholic Church, this does not automatically mean they will receive the Hope of their Salvation. . . . .

So this also applies to the Catholic Church as well as any other body of believers.

Has what I said helped to clarify our beliefs?


Peace toa ll

 

[SassySDA]

Sounds like they are putting faith in the Church rather than Jesus Christ.

You think?

I'm still shaking my head, and

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't actively reject the Roman Catholic Church. I live in England and the natural choice there is to go to an Anglican church - and that suits me just fine. No need to look any further. But from what I know about the RCC, it would be at the bottom of my list of choices.

Maybe that's because what you think you know about the Catholic Church is flawed, skewed, warpped, distorted . . .

It was once at the very bottom of my list of choices too . . .

I found what I thought I knew about the Cahtolic Church to be flawed, skewed, warpped, distorted . . .

I was in my comfort zone . . I had no desire to be challanged in what I thought was true about the Catholic Church.

I was unexpectedly and abruptly forced out of my comfort zone by God. . this propelled me into a search for the truth I may have never engaged in otherwise . . . The result of my 3 year search, which was very intensive, led me into the arms of the Catholic Church . . I could go do no other than this, to run into the arms of the Catholic Church.





Peace to all

 

[SassySDA]

I started to post that yesterday on another thread when a RC claimed that Roman Catholics never condemn anyone to hell.

The last one;

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is

absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be

subject to the Roman Pontiff.


is especially arrogant and anti-Biblical.

Uh...just WHO are "we"?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Well, I am not seeking and I think God has given me plenty to do where I am.

My knowledge of the RCC is not all from the internet - I married into a devout RC family. DH is not so brainwashed as some Catholics...

 

[SassySDA]

The Catholic Church is Christ's Church...to KNOWINGLY reject her is to reject Christ. Those, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Church and her teachings are not bound by Unam Sanctam...those of us that are fully aware of the Church would be damned.

In other words, if I decided to leave the Church, knowing what I know, I would be damning myself.

PAX CHRISTI

So YOU say. There is NOTHING biblical that supports that. Peter and a rock, and you come up with the Catholic church is Christ's church.

Common sense...yes, God gave us a brain to use,....says that WE, the followers of Christ ARE HIS CHURCH.

If there were no buildings on this planet at all. NONE, are you saying that there wouldn't be a church at all? Of course not. Christ's church is made of His people.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, I am not seeking and I think God has given me plenty to do where I am.

My knowledge of the RCC is not all from the internet - I married into a devout RC family. DH is not so brainwashed as some Catholics...

I can't say what it means that they are devout . . . that really isn't the issue . . .

The question though is how do you know that your DH was properly catechized and undertands what his the Catholic fath really is about?

I have met MANY people who are married to Catholics who disagree with the Church, usually ex-Catholics . .. .

I have met MANY ex-Cahtolics and Catholics who disagree with the Church too . . .


In every single case I have found that they were never properly catechized. What they claim the Church teaches the Church does not teach . . .

When you say your DH is not "brainwashed" like some Catholics, I have to wonder what he was taught . . . it sounds like you are saying he disagrees with Church teaching . . . I have to wonder then if he does really understand what the Church teaches to begin with, but I can't know that without finding out what he believes the Church teaches. . . ..

I don't see a reason at present, given what you said above and what you have previously said you believe about Catholic Church teaching, to beleive that he does, but I can't say one way or another with the limited information you've provided.


Peace to all

 

[SassySDA]

I am afraid I dont understand your point...can I argue a case for the Catholic Church being the Church Christ founded...sure I can, but that is not the point of this thread (not to mention it has been beaten to death). The OP asked if they were reading (US) correctly....I clarified.

PAX CHRISTI

You can argue it, but you can't BIBLICALLY support it. You have the teachings of your church father's and the catholics I have spoken with feel that it is even MORE important to have the church father's teachings...so we would be at what is called an impasse. I do believe that is why you have difficulty with "sola scriptura".

You see...anything to do with one's salvation, Jesus wouldn't have left to someone's "church father's" alone. It is clearly spelled out where salvation comes from, what one must do in order to be saved, and the words, "be a member of the Catholic Church", are not among them.

Lo' be to anyone who thinks to cause one of His children to stumble. To say that the CC is THE church for salvational purposes is just plain wrong.

 

[thereselittleflower]

So YOU say. There is NOTHING biblical that supports that. Peter and a rock, and you come up with the Catholic church is Christ's church.

Common sense...yes, God gave us a brain to use,....says that WE, the followers of Christ ARE HIS CHURCH.

If there were no buildings on this planet at all. NONE, are you saying that there wouldn't be a church at all? Of course not. Christ's church is made of His people.

thank you for sharing your opinion.

Have you taken time to read what I have posted about the visible and invisible Church?

Do you have any questions about it?



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

You can argue it, but you can't BIBLICALLY support it. You have the teachings of your church father's and the catholics I have spoken with feel that it is even MORE important to have the church father's teachings...so we would be at what is called an impasse. I do believe that is why you have difficulty with "sola scriptura".

We have a problem with sola scriptura because it puts scripture above all else . . and Paul told us to stand fast and hold to the teachings passed on in TWO ways, not just one . . . Verbally and in writing . . .

Sola Scriptura puts personal inerpretation above all else.

You see...anything to do with one's salvation, Jesus wouldn't have left to someone's "church father's" alone.

He wouldn't have left it to one's personal interpretation alone . ..

He gave ALL TRuth to the Apostles .. they passed on this ALL Truth by WORD (verbally) and by Letter (scripture).

He wouldn't have done all that then leave it to each of us to figure it out for ourselves . . . that makes no sense . . .

He would have made provision for this ALL Truth to be safe guarded and passed down through the centurires, prtoected by the Holy Spirit who gave it . . . .

This provision is the Magesterium, the Teaching Office of the Church.

The Church, after all, as Paul said, is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth . . He never said that about scripture . . .


Otherwise, you are taking your best guess since, if one believes that all we have is scripture; then the necesary conclusion is God didn't care enough to protect the Truth that was handed down by WORD.

That doesn't make sense either.

It is clearly spelled out where salvation comes from, what one must do in order to be saved, and the words, "be a member of the Catholic Church", are not among them.

That is the doctrine of the Trinity . .. do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity? That God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three Persons, One Being?


Where are the words in scripture which say God is THREE Persons, ONE Being?

Lo' be to anyone who thinks to cause one of His children to stumble. To say that the CC is THE church for salvational purposes is just plain wrong.

That is your opinion . . . I believe it is based on a wrong understanding of what the Catholic Church is . . .





Peace to all

 

[SassySDA]

Do you know it is true?

See, this is what everyone who wants to condemn the Catholic Church for the words of Unam Sanctun ignores . . .

One has to KNOW it is true, then DELIBERATELY REJECT it . . .

Christ is Truth Himself.


Can on DELIBERATELY and KNOWINGLY reject what they KNOW to be true and still be united to Truth Himself?




Peace to all

Just HOW am I supposed to know whether it's true or not true? Because, people, this is NOT in scripture. If I can't find support for things biblically, I'm NOT going to listen to some man tell me that this is true, and I'm just supposed to heed his words.

I did that in another church for over 40 years, before I finally found out that I can read and understand God's word myself. What I found contradicted almost everything, but the way of salvation, that I had ever been taught. This was a mainstream church I'm talking about here, not a sect, or cult.

I'm not going there again. I will take God's word as truth over anything else, any day.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Just HOW am I supposed to know whether it's true or not true? Because, people, this is NOT in scripture.

According to your PERSONAL PRIVATE interpretation of scripture . . .

What makes your personal, private interpretation of scripture correct?

If I can't find support for things biblically, I'm NOT going to listen to some man tell me that this is true, and I'm just supposed to heed his words.

Then you are relying on your own understanding right?

Yet we are told not lean to our own understanding.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

​

We are told our hearts are deceitful and exceedingly wicked

(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

​

I did that in another church for over 40 years, before I finally found out that I can read and understand God's word myself. What I found contradicted almost everything, but the way of salvation, that I had ever been taught. This was a mainstream church I'm talking about here, not a sect, or cult.

Each one of us has to come to the point of personal conversion no matter what Church or group we belong to . .

However, the question remains, how do you know your personal understanding is right?

You are a fallible person, prone to error as we all are . . . how do you know your personal understanding of scripture is right?

I'm not going there again. I will take God's word as truth over anything else, any day.

The scriptures have to be interpreted . . .

How do you know your interpretation, (which is fallible and prone to error since you are a fallible human being prone to error), is right?


This is the quandry you are in . . . you believe your personal interpretation is right, but how do you KNOW it is right?



Peace to all

 

[Peaceful Dove]

You can argue it, but you can't BIBLICALLY support it. You have the teachings of your church father's and the catholics I have spoken with feel that it is even MORE important to have the church father's teachings...so we would be at what is called an impasse. I do believe that is why you have difficulty with "sola scriptura".

You see...anything to do with one's salvation, Jesus wouldn't have left to someone's "church father's" alone. It is clearly spelled out where salvation comes from, what one must do in order to be saved, and the words, "be a member of the Catholic Church", are not among them.

Lo' be to anyone who thinks to cause one of His children to stumble. To say that the CC is THE church for salvational purposes is just plain wrong.

Since the Seventh Day Adventists can only be traced to thier beginnings in the late 1800s, I wonder why you argue so vehemently with the ancient history of my Church.
Yours doesn't even trace to an Apostle for its beginning. What is the big deal here?

Isn't time you do a little work on the beam in your eye before looking for splinters on ours?

 

[Prophet01]

Can I ask everyone a question?


Are we to follow the example of Christ as best we can?

"Sounds like they are putting faith in the Church rather than Jesus Christ."

Didnt Christ put his faith in his Church when he said

"so as the father sent me, so am I sending you" ?

"feed my sheep"

"bind, loosen"


I think that is part of christianity, to accept that we must put our faith in Christ, who put his faith in his Church and i think this is all the catholic faith is doing, calling us to have faith in Christ, and since christs promise to his church that he will be with her until the end of time, isnt faith in the Church faith in Christ?

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Can I ask everyone a question?


Are we to follow the example of Christ as best we can?

"Sounds like they are putting faith in the Church rather than Jesus Christ."

Didnt Christ put his faith in his Church when he said

"so as the father sent me, so am I sending you" ?

"feed my sheep"

"bind, loosen"


I think that is part of christianity, to accept that we must put our faith in Christ, who put his faith in his Church and i think this is all the catholic faith is doing, calling us to have faith in Christ, and since christs promise to his church that he will be with her until the end of time, isnt faith in the Church faith in Christ?

THANK YOU! That was beautiful.

 

[Prophet01]

its just plain and simple, I think sometimes we just over complicate things

 

[Peaceful Dove]

its just plain and simple, I think sometimes we just over complicate things

You are absolutely right.

Blessings to you.

 

[Prophet01]

I have just been thinking about what that means.


I think the way I said it was very eccumenical but when I think about the gravity of what I said its meaning is not eccumenical at all.

What it means is if we are called to have faith in Christ who has faith in his church and we dont have faith in his church we dont have faith in Christ - so how can we be saved?

which I think is the simple way of saying what the catholic catechism says - which is a rather scary thought.

I guess that leaves no room for eccumenisim - a do or die statement really...eek