Am I reading this right?

[Yusuf Evans]

Since your reasoning above is not according to Catholic teaching, has anything I posted helped you understand our position better?



Peace to all

Please enlighten me where I am wrong with my salvation. Is it simply because I have never gone to a Catholic Church? Or is it that it wasn't a Priest or a RCC member who led me to the Lord? You are already aware of what I have learned in my Chrisitan infancy, therefore, everything I have read in the Bible is incorrect, simply because the words spoken to me were not done by an RCC Priest? Paul was not a priest, he was a disciple, and he spoke to the Gentiles. No, he was not Roman, nor did he call himself one. He was Jew. In fact, he was not one of the 12 disciples that walked with Jesus, did that make him any less? I believe in the Church and that it only can exist if all Christians unite and submit to the Lord, not a man who calls himself Holy Father. There are allot of things I have heard concerning RCC teachings that still confuse me and wonder how they are actually in line with the Biblical teachings. There are also allot of things I don't understand about Protestants either, so the issue of who is right baffles my mind right now.

I don't know what God's plan is for me right now. For now, I will continue my education and continuosly pray to the Lord and build my relationship to one of utmost intimacy. Does that require me to speak to a Priest every so often to absolve sins? I thought if we confess them to the Lord, and truly repent, then we would be forgiven, but I didn't know that there had to be a Third Party in there . Just let me know where I stand in your eyes as a Christian. That's what we all are. We are Christians. The Church maybe called Catholic, but that is not who we follow. We follow the Lord Jesus Christ and his Word.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The Catholic Church is Christ's Church...to KNOWINGLY reject her is to reject Christ. Those, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Church and her teachings are not bound by Unam Sanctam...those of us that are fully aware of the Church would be damned.

In other words, if I decided to leave the Church, knowing what I know, I would be damning myself.

PAX CHRISTI

.

Why has the RCC abused its power throughout the centuries when the results of these abuses are to cause people to leave the RCC?

It's not the individuals that are damning themselves - it's the RCC that is doing it!

Well, that's if you believe that kind of thing...it's only the RCC that is saying that they are sole possessors of salvation - it's not like there is any independent support for this kind of statement.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

If one is part of the Body of Christ, one is subject to the Roman Pontif whether they are ware of it or not, actively or not, formally or not . . .

ROFL!

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The Aborigines in Australia did not know they had to be subject to the Queen of England when Australia was part of the common wealth of Enlgand . .

When did Australia leave the Commonwealth?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

You enter a danger zone, and we could not tell you clearly for it depends on what is in your heart . . .


Have you KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY REJECTED the teachings which you know to be true?

So if you only knowingly and deliberately reject only the teachings of the RCC that you know not to be true is OK?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Please enlighten me where I am wrong with my salvation.

I don't think you are understanding what we are saying . . .

Is it simply because I have never gone to a Catholic Church?

We have not said your salvation is dependent on going to a Catholic Church per se . . . it all depends on the truth you know . .

We are held accountable to the truth we know . . .

Do you agree with this?

Or is it that it wasn't a Priest or a RCC member who led me to the Lord?

No . . who leads you to the Lord has nothing to do with it.

You are already aware of what I have learned in my Chrisitan infancy,

Am I?

therefore, everything I have read in the Bible is incorrect, simply because the words spoken to me were not done by an RCC Priest?

I have never said such a thing . . .

Paul was not a priest, he was a disciple, and he spoke to the Gentiles.

He was more than a priest . . he was an APOSTLE . . .

No, he was not Roman,

He was a Roman citizen.

nor did he call himself one.

He appealed to Ceaser BECAUSE he was a Roman citizen.

He was Jew. In fact, he was not one of the 12 disciples that walked with Jesus, did that make him any less?

He was an apostle, that did not permit him to usurp the position of authority of the other 12 . . .

Revelation tells us that the 12 have a pre-eminet authority . . there are 12 foundations . . . they are the 12 apostles, of which Paul was not a part.

I believe in the Church and that it only can exist if all Christians unite and submit to the Lord, not a man who calls himself Holy Father.

He does not call himself Holy Father . . the Church does, as a sign of respect.


Now, I have a question for you . . . all Christians are NOT united at present . . .

If what you say is true, that the Church can only exist if all christians are united, does that mean that the Church does NOT exist at the present?

There are allot of things I have heard concerning RCC teachings that still confuse me and wonder how they are actually in line with the Biblical teachings.

Ah HA! And here is the root of the issue . . . there are a lot of things you have HEARD concerning our teachings . . .

I heard a lot of things in my 30 years as a protestant that confused me and made me wonder if they were really in line with the bible too . . .

I found that these things I had heard were WRONG!


I had a LOT to unlearn so I could learn what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches. It took me 3 years . . I had 30 years of misinformation and the prejudices against Catholicism they created to unlearn

There are also allot of things I don't understand about Protestants either, so the issue of who is right baffles my mind right now.

I understand.

I don't know what God's plan is for me right now. For now, I will continue my education and continuosly pray to the Lord and build my relationship to one of utmost intimacy.

Does that require me to speak to a Priest every so often to absolve sins? I thought if we confess them to the Lord, and truly repent, then we would be forgiven, but I didn't know that there had to be a Third Party in there .

The receiving forgiveness of sins through a priest is a gift, a TREMENDOUS gift of God to us . . .

Here is why . .

For one to be assured, truly assured their sins are forgiven, their contrition, their repentance, has to be perfect. In other words, free of any tought or conern for ourselves, (ie what will happen to us if we don't, a fear of losing heaven or ending up in hell) but totally and purely for the reason that what we have done has offended God and our sorrow is only for this. God is all that consumes us in such repentance. I do not know how often this happens but it is rare . . . I have personally experienced this once in my life.

Repentance is usually a mixture between experiencing sorrow for having offended God and fear of losing heaven or avoiding hell . . .

This we all imperfect contrition . . .

To be forgiven one must be genuinely sorry, have genuine sorrow for having offended God, one must be truly repentant.

Now here is the question . . . how imperfect can one's repentance be before it is not genuine? How little sorrow for offending God does one have to have in order for their repentance to be genuine?

The issue is motivation . . are we motivated by selfish desires for self preservation, or sorrow for having offended God?

Where on the line between the two is the breaking point where our repentance is not really genuine and does not result in forgiveness of our sins?

We really can't say that we know . . .


This is where the gift of going to a priest comes in . . .

Jesus gave the Apostles the power and authoirty to forgive and retain sins (John 20:23). . . Jesus sent them as the Father sent Him (John 20:21) The Father sent Jesus with the power and authority to pass His power and authorit on to others, which we see He did in these verses. This also means the Apostles were sent with the power and authority to pass it on, and os forth . .

As Jesus passed on His power and authority to the Apostles He picked and ordained, so did the Apostles to those they picked and ordained, so so did those whom they ordianed do teh same, and soforth and so forth . .

This is called Apostolic Succession.

The priest in the Catholic Church who is validly ordained in this same Apostolic Succession, has the same power to forgive and retain sins as Jesus gave to the Apostles . . .

Now .. here is why this is a wonderful gift . . .

God knew that when we repent it would be a mixture of selfish motivations and true motivations of sorrow for having offended God. He knew that there would be questions such as I asked above. He gave a way we could be sure that this mixture of the selfish with the pure motivations did not hinder us from receiving forgiveness . . .

Jesus said "Whosever sins you forgiven, THEY ARE forgiven" . . END OF DISCUSSION . . .

Our forgiveness no longer is dependent on our repentance being perfect, pure, devoid of any selfish motivation . . . We can be assured, as long as we do repent and have the desire to turn from our sins, of being forgiven when a priest absolvies us of sin and satan cannot attack us with doubts, for we have this promise of God to stand on . .

This is a wonderful and powerful Gift Jesus gave to us . . Why would one want to go it alone with Jesus when He gave us something so wonderful a this?

Just let me know where I stand in your eyes as a Christian. That's what we all are. We are Christians. The Church maybe called Catholic, but that is not who we follow. We follow the Lord Jesus Christ and his Word.

I believe you are a sincere seeker of truth, that you love Jesus is evident.

I do not believe that any of us are "saved" right now . . I believe we have the HOPE of salvation . . and that it is the PRESENT MOMMENT where we touch eternity . . if we are in a state of Divine Sanctifying Grace in the present mommnet, we are assure salvation in ths presnt momment .. if we remain in a state of Divine Sanctifying Grace in all our present momments, then we are assured of salvation in all our present momments. If we remove ourselves from this state, we loose the Hope of our salvation until we are returned to a state of Divine Sanctifing Grace. What matters is our momment of death, if we are in a state of Divine Sanctifying Grace or not . . .

God had given us many helps to help us remain in a state of Divine Sanctifying GRace in the Catholic Church . . . with such an eternal destiny the prize, why would one not want to avail themselves of ALL God has provided to help them?

It is all about receiving and responding to God's grace . . .That is what Catholicism is .. .it is all about Grace.



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

So if you only knowingly and deliberately reject only the teachings of the RCC that you know not to be true is OK?

No . . not that you know not to be true, but that you don't know are true.

But here is the grey area . . .

We cannot become complacent . . . Jesus said if we are luke warm He will spew us out of our mouth . . (think of taking swing of awful tasting stuff, and spewing it out . . not a pretty sight) . .

The danger here is becoming complacent and satisfied with where we are in Christ, in our understanding of truth . . . If we are, then we will close our hearts and mind to the truth . . .

If we can overcome our ignorance of the truth and we choose not to, God will hold us accountable . . .

More than that I cannot say . . .



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

When did Australia leave the Commonwealth?

Excuse me, I was referring to when Australia was part of the British Empire. It is still part of the Commonwealth though it has its own government and is a commonwealth itself.

Thanks


Peace to all

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The danger here is becoming complacent and satisfied with where we are in Christ, in our understanding of truth . . . If we are, then we will close our hearts and mind to the truth . . .

not to mention the danger of being pumped up with pride...

 

[thereselittleflower]

.

Why has the RCC abused its power throughout the centuries when the results of these abuses are to cause people to leave the RCC?

You seem to be confusing the actions of individuals with Church teaching . . . two different things .. .

It's not the individuals that are damning themselves - it's the RCC that is doing it!

No . . The Church is charged with teaching the truth . . part of that is to warn those who know the truth and deliberately reject as to what will happen . . .

Well, that's if you believe that kind of thing...it's only the RCC that is saying that they are sole possessors of salvation - it's not like there is any independent support for this kind of statement.

You are arguing a straw man . . . there is nothing that says we are the sole possessors of salvation . .


Please listen to what we are saying.



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

ROFL!

(Mat 12:36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

not to mention the danger of being pumped up with pride...

God bless you Naomi



Peace to all

 

[Naomi4Christ]

You seem to be confusing the actions of individuals with Church teaching . . . two different things .. .

Actually, I was thinking of several things: the state of the church at the time of the Reformation which was definitely a church leadership problem; the RCC's reaction to abuses of individual priests which is to protect and cover up rather than to let them face the wrath of the legal system; the unethical stance on contraception (which most members ignore anyway - so much for adhering to church teaching); etc. etc.

You are arguing a straw man . . . there is nothing that says we are the sole possessors of salvation . .

Goody!

 

[Naomi4Christ]

God bless you Naomi

And the same to you, Therese!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Actually, I was thinking of several things: the state of the church at the time of the Reformation which was definitely a church leadership problem;

An issue of action, not teaching

the RCC's reaction to abuses of individual priests which is to protect and cover up rather than to let them face the wrath of the legal system;

An issue of actions, not teaching . . . and you know, if you study the issue that you are referring to, it is much worse in protestant circles, and the cover up is much greater . . I have knowledge of what I am speaking of, so it really seems like the pot calling the kettle black . . and I really don't know why you want to do this when the topic is not about the actions of individuals, but of Church teaching . .

the unethical stance on contraception (which most members ignore anyway - so much for adhering to church teaching); etc. etc.

Unethical stance.!

I am shaking my head at that one . .


I fully understand the Church's stance on contraception . . . and I support it 100%.

I would say that you either do not understand it, or you have departed from the faith as it was originally taught by your own Church hundreds of years ago . .

Of all the Christian faiths, the Catholic Church is the only one who has not departed from the ancient teaching of the Church on this matter . . the ONLY one. . . .



Are you accusing the Church and all who splinered from Her of being unethical for 1900 years?



Peace to all

 

[Naomi4Christ]

An issue of action, not teaching

So it's a case of 'do as I say and not as I do'. What a way to teach, eh? No thanks.

 

[Mea Culpa]

Yep, wrong! At least the way he meant it.


But I have to wonder if some believe they can be saved if they are separated from the Body of Christ?

I have to wonder if some believe they can KNOWINGLY (meaning they have full knowledge what they are rejecting is true) and DELIBERATELY reject truth, and still be joined to the Body of Christ . . . ?




Peace to all

That is my point though. I am not separated from the Body of Christ if I am not affiliated with the Catholic Church. The body of Christ, whether people want to believe it or not, is the Universal Church, containing ALL those people who both INSIDE and OUTSIDE the Catholic Church have met Christ personally and excepted Him as their Saviour and believed on His name.

I know that this is not excepted by a lot of people, but it is the heart of what I am trying to say and it is the truth. How narrow a view that only those in this one body of believers can be saved, when there are lots of other believers in the world!

A Catholic who walks away from the Catholic Church is no more or less damned then anyone else. It is possible that they finally came to the conclusion that they disagreed with some of its teachings. God would and does understand that, otherwise I could not be saved apart from the Catholic Church.

This is what I meant when I said that the Catholic Church is not the Jews of the New Testament, which Peter taught, and it is not the Gentiles to where Paul felt led to go. The body of Christ is not separated by those things, it is one and huge family of believers regardless of if you except the Catholic teachings or not.

The fact that a believer leaves the Christian Church, and decides that it is all nonesense, is one thing. Only God knows if that person is truly saved or not. It is not for us to judge.

So this also applies to the Catholic Church as well as any other body of believers.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Why does it matter what Church I belong to as long as I believe in Jesus?

If you can ask that question, you do not fully understand what the Catholic Church teaches.
Ignorance is indeed, bliss.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

would our father who art in heaven truly cast those who believe in him into hell for eternal damnation because they are not catholic. Or would he send them to hell because they rejected christ. verily our all loving father could not do such a thing. let all whom believe in jesus christ be saved. let there be not buts and no ifs. let all whom believe in jesus christ be saved

Our Father in Heaven does not cast us into hell. We cast ourselves there.
You ask two questions.
Would he cast you there if you reject the catholic church? No, not if you were truly ignorant of it being the Church that Jesus is the head of.
Would he cast you there if you reject Christ? You would end up in hell, most likely if you knew who Jesus is and then reject him.
I fear greatly for folks who know Jesus is our Redeemer then wander off to Islam or some other religion who is not Christian.

God the Father is also all just.
He cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, flooded the world and destroyed two cities that were evil.
He is not some wishy washy Father who sets us on the right course and then approves rebellion.

Some of the "ignorance" of the Church that we see, is nothing more than self-serving rebellion. Folks who leave because they want to "feel" the way they think they should.
I know this as a fact because I have taught hundreds who have come back after leaving. Usually they said they were bored. This has more to do with their own shallowness than it does with the Lord.

 

[thereselittleflower]

So it's a case of 'do as I say and not as I do'. What a way to teach, eh? No thanks.

Then you better reject Christianity all together for the Apostles are the foundation upon which the Church is built, and Peter is guilty of "do what I say, not as I do" . . .


Your logic for rejecting the Catholic Church does not hold up . . .


You are going to have to reject every single Christian faith group then on the same basis, or you will be guilty of holding us to a double standard, which is a form of a lie. . . .


Do you see this?



Peace to all