Am I reading this right?

[invisible trousers]

On bizarro CF catholics and protestants try not to keep each other out of heaven

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I have just been thinking about what that means.


I think the way I said it was very eccumenical but when I think about the gravity of what I said its meaning is not eccumenical at all.

What it means is if we are called to have faith in Christ who has faith in his church and we dont have faith in his church we dont have faith in Christ - so how can we be saved?

which I think is the simple way of saying what the catholic catechism says - which is a rather scary thought.

I guess that leaves no room for eccumenisim - a do or die statement really...eek

Be not afraid, my Friend. You could have said far worse things.
Especially in this forum.

A little truth is good for the stomach.

 

[Prophet01]

unfortunatly I do not quote reformed or orthodox theology but Christ himself.


but the catholic catechisim did have a "get out clause" where you need to understand the doctrines are truth and reject them, so as long as reformed christians have faith that is the truth it maybe ok.

catholic - eccumenical, Never?

 

[Peaceful Dove]

unfortunatly I do not quote reformed or orthodox theology but Christ himself.


but the catholic catechisim did have a "get out clause" where you need to understand the doctrines are truth and reject them, so as long as reformed christians have faith that is the truth it maybe ok.

catholic - eccumenical, Never?

catholic _ eccumenical, Never?...what does that mean.

I was very much involved in Eccumenical ministry for several years as a Catholic.

 

[Prophet01]

its a sarcastic comment aimed at those who say the catholic faith condemns other christians to hell, not in a nasty way, it was meant to be funny.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I have just been thinking about what that means.


I think the way I said it was very eccumenical but when I think about the gravity of what I said its meaning is not eccumenical at all.

What it means is if we are called to have faith in Christ who has faith in his church and we dont have faith in his church we dont have faith in Christ - so how can we be saved?

which I think is the simple way of saying what the catholic catechism says - which is a rather scary thought.

I guess that leaves no room for eccumenisim - a do or die statement really...eek

It depends on what your understanding of eccumenism is . .

If it is a "feel good, everyone is OK" thing, then no . . there is no room for that 'type' of eccumenism.

True eccumenism has to be based on truth . . . . that is the opposite of "you can believe what you want and everything is OK" . . . .


Regarding your summary:

What it means is if we are called to have faith in Christ who has faith in his church and we dont have faith in his church we dont have faith in Christ - so how can we be saved?
​

You left out the issue of knowing and deliberately rejecting . . . one has to know something is true . . . if one does not know something is true and rejects it, then has one deliberately rejected the truth?

No . . .





Peace to all

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

its a sarcastic comment aimed at those who say the catholic faith condemns other christians to hell, not in a nasty way, it was meant to be funny.

But it does, even going so far as to say that those who are not subject to the pope on a rope, have no salvation, meaning they are hellbound.

Unam Sanctam Promulgated November 18, 1302

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the

Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in

her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her

there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the

Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove,

my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore

her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is

Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is

one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at

the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one

Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had

only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside

of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.





We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the

mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword

and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has

prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this

body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of

the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of

the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the

seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot

[Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is

one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is,

Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter,

since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep'

[Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those

in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him

[Peter].

Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they

are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must

confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in

John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are

informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its

power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal.

For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk

22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were

speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but

sufficient.

Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword

is in the power of Peter ha s not listened well to the word of the

Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt

26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is

to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to

be administered _for_ the Church but the latter_by_ the Church;

the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of

kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.



However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and

temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the

Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the

things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they

would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to

the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led

upwards by the other.





For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the

divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by

intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all

things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the

lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior.

Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power

surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power

whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see

very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration

of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the

government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it

belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and

to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished

the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the

ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over

nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the

terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but

if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior

spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be

judged only by God, and not by man, according to the

testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things

and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This

authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is

exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to

Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his

successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying

to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be

bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19].

Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2] , unless he invent like Manicheus two

beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since

according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings

but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen

1:1].

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is

absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be

subject to the Roman Pontiff.



Now that is full blown heresy.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Augustine...did you read any of the thread or are you just adding your two cents??

PAX CHRISTI

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Augustine_Was_Calvinist ][/size]
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is
. . . .
is especially arrogant and anti-Biblical.

Uh...just WHO are "we"?

That would be The Church, the same one that proclaimed, declared and defined the New Testament of the bible that you use.

You should check it out for yourself, look for "Canon of the New Testament", "Council of Carthage", and "Council of Hippo". You will be very surprised.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Prophet01]

"But it does, even going so far as to say that those who are not subject to the pope on a rope, have no salvation"

well, lets look at the catholic faith constructively instead of destructively from their point of view.

The Catholic church teaches that it is the historical church of Christ and do have a succesion of popes dating back to peter.

So lets give them the benefit of the doubt, at least just for this post.

Say the catholic faith is the true faith, then far from condeming other christians from other churches, which they could easily have done, since Christ put his faith in his church and so many of us have not, instead they show us mercy and forgivness and even bend over backwards to grant us salvation through the catholic church.

how?

its so simple, the catholic faith who we believe for this post were given the mission of christ by christ given the power to bind and loosen, forgive or not forgive, who were told those who listen to you listen to me and those who reject you reject me also and yet we reject them, condemn them, and speak falsely against them (for this post)

but the catholic faith shows us infinite, yes even divine mercy.

remember for this post as an exercise in constuctive analysis we are accepting the catholic faith for what it says it is, the true original church of Christ.. it is only an exersise, please dont get mad, upset or hysterical, they are for this post "the true Chruch"

because of they exersise love for us our baptism by iligitimate means is made valid, because our baptism is valid we are baptised into the catholic faith, because we are baptised into the catholic faith our faith even if we misunderstand this faith is the catholic faith and we profess this to be so in the creed. even when we protest against the authority of our faith they grant us mercy by saying we MUST know and understand these doctrines to be true and THEN reject them to loose our salvation, but because we are children of adam we fail to understand and disrespect the church christ gave the world but even when we spit, mock, spread false testimoy and crucify the chruch for the doctrines we dont understand, they follow in the footsteps of Christ and say "forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do"


very moving, very merciful, very Christ like - even if they are not what they claim to be, credit where credit is due!

 

[Lynn73]

If you were Catholic, and understood the teachings of the Catholic Church, then voluntarily seperate yourself...then Salvation is not possible.

PAX CHRISTI

Only according to your church. Where do you get authority to say whether someone can be saved or not? There are plenty of testimonies of born again, blood bought believers in Christ that have left the Catholic church and say they didn't even know the real gospel and become saved until they left. How arrogant to say they cannot be saved just because they left Catholicism. Don't even try to convince me that they aren't. I have news for you, staying a member of your church isn't required for salvation. Jesus' church includes all believers according to Scripture and you have no authority to say who and who cannot be saved. He adds all believers to His true church the moment they are saved.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I've repeated what anyone else has said.

 

[Sentry]

From:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp



So I don't have salvation?

It is a matter of conscience.

What they are saying is this:

If you know Rome is right and reject its teachings then you don't have salvation.

 

[Lynn73]

Oh, well I know they AREN'T right and I reject their teachings. They don't have any say so over my salvation. It's settled.

The people who leave the Catholic church evidently don't believe it's right or they wouldn't leave it. As I said, there are plenty of testimonies by former priests, nuns, Catholics that God brought them out and to the true gospel. I wouldn't call that knowing or believing that Rome was right and still leaving. They left because they came to the knowledge that it wasn't right.

 

[GraceInHim]

Quote

Originally Posted by: Isaiah 53

If you were Catholic, and understood the teachings of the Catholic Church, then voluntarily seperate yourself...then Salvation is not possible.

PAX CHRISTI

I never knew all the teachings even though I was - actually learned more about the All Mighty on my own.... Is this alittle judgemental of people who do decide to leave and knew the teachings?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Rejecting RCC is not the same as rejecting Jesus Christ. However, there are denominations like RCC that do say that if you don't accept their teachings, you will not go into heaven. Interesting world of organized religion.