Am I reading this right?

[Isaiah 53]

That statement tells me that people are still serving "physical" church rather than spiritual church. Why people are not seeing spiritual? Does that mean that person is spiritually blind because they are basing every faith on physical belonging and physical works?

The Church is Physical and Spiritual...why does it always have to be either/or?

PAX CHRISTI

 

[JimfromOhio]

The Church is Physical and Spiritual...why does it always have to be either/or?

PAX CHRISTI

Church is spiritual. Christian faith is inward, not outward because the Bible teaches that faith is of the spirit and not of the flesh. God has sent us the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) and if we humble ourselves to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will teach us with revelations of spiritual truth (Matthew 11:25-27). Our faith of actions should be our relationship with our Lord, our daily life, our worship reflect our concept of God. Not the physical Church. Romans 12:1-2 (NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Even though we are divided on doctine issues, we can all agree the true meaning of Jesus Christ. Doctrines are important and Christians might argue for those issues. These would include beliefs about traditions, worship style, communion, predestination, eternal security, original sin, infant baptism and others. Christians chose denominations by following their conscience (Holy Spirit), beliefs and personal worship preferences.

The key is that we are the Church in Spirit with other believers regardless our "personal" opinion or loyalty to our denominations (or non-denomination). God knows every believers' hearts and God will accept any believers who truly believe His Son, who died for our sins. Truly, God do not judge us based on what denomination (physical) church we go to, but rather God judge us based on we truly accepted Christ and worship God spiritually. We worship in Spirit.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Church is spiritual. Christian faith is inward, not outward because the Bible teaches that faith is of the spirit and not of the flesh. God has sent us the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) and if we humble ourselves to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will teach us with revelations of spiritual truth (Matthew 11:25-27). Our faith of actions should be our relationship with our Lord, our daily life, our worship reflect our concept of God. Not the physical Church. Romans 12:1-2 (NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Even though we are divided on doctine issues, we can all agree the true meaning of Jesus Christ. Doctrines are important and Christians might argue for those issues. These would include beliefs about traditions, worship style, communion, predestination, eternal security, original sin, infant baptism and others. Christians chose denominations by following their conscience (Holy Spirit), beliefs and personal worship preferences.

The key is that we are the Church in Spirit with other believers regardless our "personal" opinion or loyalty to our denominations (or non-denomination). God knows every believers' hearts and God will accept any believers who truly believe His Son, who died for our sins. Truly, God do not judge us based on what denomination (physical) church we go to, but rather God judge us based on we truly accepted Christ and worship God spiritually. We worship in Spirit.

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-V

 

[JimfromOhio]

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-V

Those are "RCC" point of view of the Church. This is what you believe. Go for it.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Those are "RCC" point of view of the Church. This is what you believe. Go for it.

Thanks I will...

I do not wish to derail this thread too far, but everyone's personal interpretation of Scripture cannot be correct...I will trust in those who cannonized Scripture to tell me what it means.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[God_of_Mercy]

Yes, Unam Sanctum does stand, but it applies ONLY to those who have full knowledge and knowingly reject/leave the Catholic Church. It does not apply to those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Church and reject them by default.

PAX CHRISTI

Funny you should mention this, I am actually reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church right now. If I "reject" it and remain protestant, am I damning myself?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Funny you should mention this, I am actually reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church right now. If I "reject" it and remain protestant, am I damning myself?

Yes.. that's what the RCC is teaching. That's outside the Bible.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Funny you should mention this, I am actually reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church right now. If I "reject" it and remain protestant, am I damning myself?

No, not necessarily. You see you must not only be knowledgable, but you must ACCEPT it as truth. If you recognize the Church as possessing the fullness of the faith and speaking without error--then you openly reject it because you dont like it or whatever...then you are in trouble.

That is why it is said the Church does not declare anyone damned, She does not ever fully know the extent of one's understanding...that is between you and God.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[God_of_Mercy]

No, not necessarily. You see you must not only be knowledgable, but you must ACCEPT it as truth. If you recognize the Church as possessing the fullness of the faith and speaking without error--then you openly reject it because you dont like it or whatever...then you are in trouble.

That is why it is said the Church does not declare anyone damned, She does not ever fully know the extent of one's understanding...that is between you and God.

PAX CHRISTI

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm playing a petty game but I only seek understanding. Lets say I'm a Catholic and I accept all Catholic teachings. Then I become Protestant, still believe in Christ, but don't believe in Communion of Saints or Real Presence for example. Would I still be in trouble as you say?

 

[Mea Culpa]

The Catholic Church is Christ's Church...to KNOWINGLY reject her is to reject Christ. Those, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Church and her teachings are not bound by Unam Sanctam...those of us that are fully aware of the Church would be damned.

In other words, if I decided to leave the Church, knowing what I know, I would be damning myself.

PAX CHRISTI

How can anyone claim that though? God called me, a person who has been a part of both the Catholic and "protestant" churches.

I am saved by grace through faith, I know that because of the work that Christ did in me - He gave me peace that is beyond understanding. I know my savior and I know His Peace.

I cannot in good conscience agree with all the tenants of the Catholic Church. There are things such as the Eucharist that claims that Christ becomes bread and wine, and then we eat Him. I cannot under good conscience agree with that. Jesus said, "It is finished" on the cross, and thus in my heart of hearts, I believe what He said. I know that it is finished; it is a free gift of Christ to us.

Of course there are others things, not the least of which is the Pontiff and his infallibility that I don't agree with. However, I also don't agree with a lot of "protestant" churches either.

Yet I am saved, Christ is in me; He is my hope of Glory. No one can tell me that I am not accepted, that I am not in the beloved. No one can make a claim that one loses salvation by not being a part of the ROMAN church. The Church is the body of believers, no matter if you agree with them or not, that Jesus Himself has chosen.

No man or organization can judge or know someone’s heart. That is between Jesus Christ Himself and the believer.

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, as well as my protestant ones. Yet I don't agree with all of them. I see a lot of things differently then both groups. I can't judge who is and who is not a Christian, that is the work of God and God alone to decide. I just desire to know Him, and to be one with my Creator, and in my humble opinion it is not for any man, any "church" to claim that I am not a believer, and not a part of His Church. His Church is the body of believers, irregardless of man's thoughts and creeds.

PAX

 

[Isaiah 53]

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm playing a petty game but I only seek understanding. Lets say I'm a Catholic and I accept all Catholic teachings. Then I become Protestant, still believe in Christ, but don't believe in Communion of Saints or Real Presence for example. Would I still be in trouble as you say?

Ask away, it has been very civil thus far. If you belong, accept and understand the Catholic Church, then leave...you are in trouble.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[Isaiah 53]

How can anyone claim that though? God called me, a person who has been a part of both the Catholic and "protestant" churches.

I am saved by grace through faith, I know that because of the work that Christ did in me - He gave me peace that is beyond understanding. I know my savior and I know His Peace.

I cannot in good conscience agree with all the tenants of the Catholic Church. There are things such as the Eucharist that claims that Christ becomes bread and wine, and then we eat Him. I cannot under good conscience agree with that. Jesus said, "It is finished" on the cross, and thus in my heart of hearts, I believe what He said. I know that it is finished; it is a free gift of Christ to us.

Of course there are others things, not the least of which is the Pontiff and his infallibility that I don't agree with. However, I also don't agree with a lot of "protestant" churches either.

Yet I am saved, Christ is in me; He is my hope of Glory. No one can tell me that I am not accepted, that I am not in the beloved. No one can make a claim that one loses salvation by not being a part of the ROMAN church. The Church is the body of believers, no matter if you agree with them or not, that Jesus Himself has chosen.

No man or organization can judge or know someone’s heart. That is between Jesus Christ Himself and the believer.

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, as well as my protestant ones. Yet I don't agree with all of them. I see a lot of things differently then both groups. I can't judge who is and who is not a Christian, that is the work of God and God alone to decide. I just desire to know Him, and to be one with my Creator, and in my humble opinion it is not for any man, any "church" to claim that I am not a believer, and not a part of His Church. His Church is the body of believers, irregardless of man's thoughts and creeds.

PAX

I think you are misunderstanding me and the teaching of the Church. (US) was written to those who willfully broke from the Catholic Church. While I dont agree with your idea of Salvation, I will not question your grace or ability to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, according to the Church, if you were in full communion with the Church and understood/accepted her teachings, then willfully left the Church--your soul is in danger, especially if you do not reconcile yourself prior to your death.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[God_of_Mercy]

Ask away, it has been very civil thus far. If you belong, accept and understand the Catholic Church, then leave...you are in trouble.

PAX CHRISTI

But if I leave the Church because of minor doctrinal reasons, am I really rejecting Christ? If this is the case it seems Catholics are stressing correct doctrine more than genuine belief in Christ.

 

[Isaiah 53]

But if I leave the Church because of minor doctrinal reasons, am I really rejecting Christ? If this is the case it seems Catholics are stressing correct doctrine more than genuine belief in Christ.

To disagree with minor doctrinal issues is not a valid reason to leave the Church. If you did, I would dare say you do not recoginize the Church and would be ignorant of her authority. I may disagree with doctrinal issues, but I submit myself to the Church authority because I recoginize her as possessing that authority...understand?

PAX CHRISTI

 

[God_of_Mercy]

To disagree with minor doctrinal issues is not a valid reason to leave the Church. If you did, I would dare say you do not recoginize the Church and would be ignorant of her authority. I may disagree with doctrinal issues, but I submit myself to the Church authority because I recoginize her as possessing that authority...understand?

PAX CHRISTI

So you don't have to accept all Catholic doctrine to be Catholic? What is this authority that the Catholic Church alone has that no other church has? Why is union with the Catholic Church so important?

 

[Isaiah 53]

So you don't have to accept all Catholic doctrine to be Catholic? What is this authority that the Catholic Church alone has that no other church has? Why is union with the Catholic Church so important?

I didn't say you didn't have to accept it...I said you dont have to like it. You may disagree, but you must submit yourself. The Church is bigger then any single believer. The authority of Christ--because Christ established one church not thousands of doctrinally different churches...

PAX CHRISTI

 

[invisible trousers]

Why does it matter what Church I belong to as long as I believe in Jesus?

Because some christian churches are more right than other christian churches.

 

[Mea Culpa]

I think you are misunderstanding me and the teaching of the Church. (US) was written to those who willfully broke from the Catholic Church. While I dont agree with your idea of Salvation, I will not question your grace or ability to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, according to the Church, if you were in full communion with the Church and understood/accepted her teachings, then willfully left the Church--your soul is in danger, especially if you do not reconcile yourself prior to your death.

PAX CHRISTI

What difference would it make if you were not a part of the RC and you were drawn to Christ and are born of the Spirit and become a Christian, and a person who is a part of the RC whose convictions have changed, and they feel lead out of the RC?

Are you refering to those who act the part of a Catholic and leave the RC or a Catholic who is devout and leaves?

If you at one time accepted the teachings, and leave willfully through conviction, how can that be seen as wrong? To be honest, I was not a baptised Roman Catholic but I was first drawn there by God. God choose for me to be born again outside of the RC church and as a result of a long, long journey of questioning, studing, and listening to His Spirit, I came to the conclusion that there are issues I can not accept in the RC.

Now this is me. For me, God called me out, but I still have dear friends and sisters and brothers in the RC. I also sometimes attend the services, though I don't agree with everything said and done. THis goes the same for the protestant church I sometimes go to. I have convictions there as well.

I can't ask you to understand my convictions that have lead me away from both the RC and the protestant church that I attend. But the Roman Catholics are not the Christian equivelent of the Jews in the New Testament, and the Protestants are not the Gentiles. We are called to be one, that is the whole point of Peter being convicted of eating those things which Jews feel are unclean.

Even then, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, and Peter was sent to the Jews. Does Peter then have a greater salvation then Paul?

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I guess I'm screwed out of salvation and the eternal gift of Jesus, since I've never been to a Catholic Church in my life. I've repented of my sins(but not had them absolved by a Catholic Priest), and I've accepted Jesus Christ in my heart(though I did it in a Baptist, not Catholic Church). I wonder, have I been duped by the Bible and it's teachings, simply because I did not read it from a Catholic perspective? Things that make you go

 

[thereselittleflower]

From:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp



So I don't have salvation?

Were you once part of the Catholic Church?

This is addressed ONLY to those who were once PERSONALLY a part of the Catholic Church. It is NOT addressed to ANY OTHERS!


Have you KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY done any of this?

In other woards, do you KNOW that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded and you knowingly and DELIBERATELY reject this?


Do you KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY REJECT any divinely revealed truth?


If not, then why are you worred that this says you are not saved?



Peace to all