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Featured Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Light of the East, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. jcm2000

    jcm2000 New Member

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    Are you saying Jesus did not make atonement for personal sins?
     
  2. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Yes the parallelism is unmistakably clear. Since "eternal" life in the first clause lasts for 1,000 years, "eternal" punishment in the second clause also lasts for 1,000 years. You have plainly ignored for your own convenience that the sheep-goat judgment is not the same as the great white throne judgment.
    There are individuals in both sheep and goat nations that are rewarded or punished as a consequence of their benevolent or non-benevolent actions toward the brethren during the tribulation.
    I don't believe in annihilation so that is an irrelevant point. You have been hoodwinked into believing that eternal life in Scripture refers to life forever with God. In a sense that is true but directly speaking it refers to life during the Millennial Age. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied and equated "eternal life" with the "kingdom of God" and the "kingdom of heaven." Thus by Jesus' own words, these three terms are synonymous. It is common knowledge that the Jews were anticipating their Messiah's coming to usher in the Millennial age where they would rule with Jesus over their enemies. Thus the rich young ruler's question about eternal life was really about how he would inherit life during the Millennium and NOT LIFE FOREVER.
    It is apparent to me that you need to study and understand more but whether that happens is of course your choice.
     
  3. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    If you rely in denying the Ecumenical Councils because it does not fit your belief, then there is something wrong.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This assumes that God's feeling, sentiments etc. are exactly like yours. Unfortunately we don't get to decide what is right or wrong for God.
    Isaiah 55:8-9
    (8) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
    (9) "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    What were the early EOC views on Hell compared to early Roman Catholicism?
    Some interesting thread on the "schism":

    Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology

    Roman church errors and inventions

    Scholasticism
    Filioque
    Papal Supremacy
    Immaculate Conception

    Inventions:
    -Infallability of the Pope
    -Papal supremacy
    -Immaculate conception
    -purgatory
    Errors:
    -Vatican I and II(not the councells but their decisions....although II was worse than I)
    -indulgencies
    -crusades
    -Vatican City.... (never should have been a "seperate state"but goes hand in hand with the Papal supreority)
    ======================
    Lateran IV

    Unam Sanctum
    Trent
    Vatican I
    Vatican II
    the papacy
    the Marian dogmas
    the dogma of papal infallibility
    auricular confession and penance
    sacerdotal sacramentalism
    purgatory
    indugences

    transubstantiation

    and admit that the Roman religion was built upon the deceptions and frauds of forgeries invented during the dark ages
    ===========================
    Protestant errors and inventions

    These errors and inventions are not Biblcal and are not part of historic Christianity.

    Total Depravity of Man
    Enthroning the Bible in your Heart
    Ask Jesus into Your Heart
    The Rapture
    Altar Call
    Eternal Security
    "Once Saved Always Saved"
    Sola Fide - Salvation by "Faith Alone"
    Sola Scriptura - "Bible Alone"
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <OT>Yes the parallelism is unmistakably clear. Since "eternal" life in the first clause lasts for 1,000 years, "eternal" punishment in the second clause also lasts for 1,000 years. You have plainly ignored for your own convenience that the sheep-goat judgment is not the same as the great white throne judgment.
    There are individuals in both sheep and goat nations that are rewarded or punished as a consequence of their benevolent or non-benevolent actions toward the brethren during the tribulation.
    I don't believe in annihilation so that is an irrelevant point. You have been hoodwinked into believing that eternal life in Scripture refers to life forever with God. In a sense that is true but directly speaking it refers to life during the Millennial Age. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied and equated "eternal life" with the "kingdom of God" and the "kingdom of heaven." Thus by Jesus' own words, these three terms are synonymous. It is common knowledge that the Jews were anticipating their Messiah's coming to usher in the Millennial age where they would rule with Jesus over their enemies. Thus the rich young ruler's question about eternal life was really about how he would inherit life during the Millennium and NOT LIFE FOREVER.
    It is apparent to me that you need to study and understand more but whether that happens is of course your choice.<OT>
    .....I have been active at CF for more than 2 decades and I have heard the argument that aion does not mean eternity and aionios does not mean eternal countless times. Since .....I am retired X3 and have no time clock to punch I did an independent study of both words.
    .....In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Petr, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [18]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [19]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [20]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [21]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [22]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
     
  7. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Oh, yes there is. And the fact that you deny it exposes how poorly you understand what you're talking about. Parallelisms are a common literary device in ancient Jewish literature (most particularly, in Jewish poetry). And Matthew 25:46 is a classic example of one.

    I'm afraid this just made me chuckle. It appears you don't understand the nature of a parallelism (which, in the case of Matthew 25:46 is an antithetical one). There are two opposite (antithetical) ends set in parallel to each other in Matthew 25:46: the end of the wicked (into everlasting punishment) and the end of the righteous (into eternal life). The parallelism doesn't rest on the relationship of adjectives to nouns but upon repetition and comparison or contrast, which is what may be observed in Matthew 25:46.

    Proof, please. On what concrete basis can you prove this assertion?

    No, it began "in earnest" with the production of the NT which clearly taught eternal punishment.

    Yup. See above.

    Well, deny the obvious all you like, but the verses say what they say. I have neither added to nor taken away a single word in my interpretation of the verses in question.

    As for the use of "aionios," well, I already addressed your contentions about it in an earlier post (#102). Let me quote some of it for you:

    This is an old and tired line that those who want to deny the doctrine of hell often use. It's been answered again and again. As far as I'm aware, "aionios" is used in the vast majority of its occurrences in the NT to refer to an eternal (never-ending) duration of time. 51 times "aionios" refers to the unending happiness of the righteous, 2 instances refer to the duration of God in His glory, and 7 appear in reference to the punishment of the wicked. While "aionios" may refer to a limited duration of time, in the NT it almost never has any other meaning than an eternal period.

    W. E. Vine points out,

    "Aionios - describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

    The predominant meaning of "aionios," that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is used in contrast with "proskairos," lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ,Hebrews 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believer in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Corinthians 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Corinthians 15:33, in which that life will be finally realized, Matthew 25:46;Titus 1:2.

    "Aionios" is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hebrews 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.

    The use of "aionios" here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology show that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.

    (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words - pg. 43)

    In light of what Vine points out here, how is it that you can contend that "aionios" is wrongly translated? Its constant association with things that are eternal - God, His glory, His power, Christ's redemption of the lost, Christ's future rule, the life received by those who have trusted in Christ, etc. - shows that "aionios" does carry the idea of eternality and does so in Scripture almost exclusively.


    But, that isn't what the verses actually say - unfortunately for you. Like I said, a plain, straightforward reading trumps your eschatological convolutions every time.
     
  8. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    All of this talks past my points. Your comments are also dismissive and patronizing. And, not surprisingly, utterly unpersuasive. It is quite evidently you who are in need of further study of Scripture.
     
  9. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Der Alter, you are blessed to be retired but I hope your memory is not faltering because every time you initially reply to me, you cut and paste this list you keep handy as your initial response and we go from there with the same result each and every time regarding this subject. We always end up disagreeing and plow no new ground each time so I'm quite familiar with your position and responses as you may be with mine since we have extensive back & forth. Thus I'm not interested in discussing with you since it's just a rehash of our previous engagements. However, it you want to choose a single verse/passage which you think best represents your view from your list, I will respond in kind since hopefully it won't take much of my time and we don't spend all our time (although you're retired) on the merry-go-round ride.
     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Not surprising that you will not or cannot give a scriptural counter-reply but thanks for the limited discussion anyway.
     
  11. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Uh huh. Right back 'atcha.
     
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  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you saying that if the universe was a playground, God would be the bully?
    He can do whatever he wants because he is bigger than we are? Is that how it works?
    Seems like a complete mischaracterization of our loving heavenly Father toward his creation.
     
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  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right. Or what is the point in doing that?

    To what end is endless torment?
    Especially to those who have no idea why they are even there.

    What is accomplished? What good can come of it?
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Most think that the word of God is ONLY found in an English translation of the Bible.
    But which one? No agreement there.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Pity. Seems such a waste.
    Remind me, what was the point of all this?
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Do you believe that those qualified for the kingdom were predestined?
    If so, why are some chosen for eternal life and others for eternal torment?
    Does that seems just to you? Or merciful?
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    No. It's not the same.

    Those who delight in everlasting torment have a remarkable dislike for those who don't.
    It seems everlasting torment is of very high importance to them.

    To even attempt to deny them the pleasure of assigning everlasting torment is on order with the highest blasphemy thinkable.

    Their position on this is baffling. Why would they hold dear such a horrible thing and think they are doing God a favor?
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That is so funny. Thanks.
    This makes the age-abiding definition of aionious all the more appealing.

    Matthew 25:46 Rotherham Emphasized Bible
    And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding (aionious), correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding (aionious), life.
     
  19. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    people don't go to hell for not receiving the gospel. they go to hell for being fallen sons and daughters in adam.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's the question, did God say so?
    Or are we at the mercy of Bible translations with a Damnatioist bias?
    I vote for the latter.
     
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