Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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If that's what that means then what does that mean for today?

Authority for The Priesthood of The Church to forgive sins.

Also From : Saint George Greek Orthodox Church

"Jesus gave the Apostles the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive and retain sins. In other words, the Apostles and the bishops and priests who succeeded them in the life of the Church, have been given the same grace as Jesus Himself had when dealing with sinners"




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jcm2000

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Authority for The Priesthood of The Church to forgive sins.

Also From : Saint George Greek Orthodox Church

"Jesus gave the Apostles the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive and retain sins. In other words, the Apostles and the bishops and priests who succeeded them in the life of the Church, have been given the same grace as Jesus Himself had when dealing with sinners"




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Why only the apostles, bishops and priests? Who forgives them of their sins?
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Why only the apostles, bishops and priests? Who forgives them of their sins?


Well, they themselves also have confessors that they confess to with in The Church.


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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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jcm2000

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Anto9us

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The various positions among Christians as to the perpetuity or non-perpetuity of hell I have described in an analogy of professional Los Angeles sports teams.

LAKERS believe in ECT in a literal lake of fire.

CLIPPERS are Annihilationists, who think when the silver cord of Ecclesiastes is clipped, the damned just die when they die.

DODGERS believe in a non-perpetual hell.

So Christians as a whole are not in the same ball park on this, sometimes not even the same game.
 
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Oldmantook

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I will bet good money that the souls who loved sin in their lives and are now being refined by the love of God and the scourging of that love are desperately wishing they could escape and between their howls of misery and pain, are wishing they had listened to the Christians instead of making fun of them. Regardless of the telos of our souls, i.e. that all are eventually redeemed to God and God becomes all in all, this is serious business and life is to be a serious quest to put down sin and seek God's mercy here and now before we suffer in the next life.
Agree. Better to die to self in this age rather than die to self in the next.
 
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jcm2000

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Agree. Better to die to self in this age rather than die to self in the next.

Totally agree, and I think that's why some who kick against the Idea that all we will be saved in due time through Christ and the lake of fire fail to Grasp. When I say that all will be saved in due time and through the lake of fire. I'm not taking away the severity of it and play it off as some walk in the park. No one should say to themselves well were all saved in the end, so it doesn't matter what I believe. I don't wish anyone to go through that.
 
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Oldmantook

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Totally agree, and I think that's why some who kick against the Idea that all we will be saved in due time through Christ and the lake of fire fail to Grasp. When I say that all will be saved in due time and through the lake of fire. I'm not taking away the severity of it and play it off as some walk in the park. No one should say to themselves well were all saved in the end, so it doesn't matter what I believe. I don't wish anyone to go through that.
Indeed, the depth of God's mercy is unfathomable but He gives us a choice on how we are to obey Him either in this life or the next. God help us.
 
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aiki

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Matt 25:46 does not state that hell/lake of fire lasts forever.

Yes, it does. The parallelism in the verse makes this unavoidably clear.

Study the passage for yourself instead of just accepting what you were taught.

Take your own advice. I have studied the passage and know whereof I speak. Can't say the same for you.

The context is the sheep-goat judgment of the nations - not the great white throne judgment - 2 different events.

I don't subscribe to this view. Are not nations constituted of individuals? Why isn't it the "righteous nations" not simply "the righteous" who answer Christ, wondering when it was they ministered to him? Why does the section conclude, not with "And these nations will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous nations into eternal life", but rather just, "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"? How is a nation cast into everlasting punishment without the individuals that constitute it begin cast into such punishment, too? It seems to me a natural, straightforward reading of the text denies the national level on which you want to place Matthew 25:46.

The sheep are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom while the goats are commanded to depart into the lake of fire. Millennium = 1,000 years.

Well, regardless of whatever eschatological commitments you have, the verse itself communicates a direct parallel between the forever life of the righteous and the forever punishment of the wicked. No number of eschatalogical convolutions can dissolve the plain meaning of the parallel in Matthew 25:46.

Also, you apparently don't notice that your citation of 2 Thess 1:9 and Rev 14:9-11 contradict each other. How can "they suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," when Rev 14:10 states that "he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." ??

And you seem to have missed that Revelations 14:10-11 says nothing about he who has taken the Mark of the Beast being tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. It says only that the smoke of their torment rises forever (which the verse does not say rises so before the Lamb). The duration of time of their torment before the Lamb is not indicated. 2 Thessalonians tells us, though, that it won't be forever. See? No contradiction, if you read carefully. And I still think annihilationism is an entirely unbiblical belief.
 
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Light of the East

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If that's what that means then what does that mean for today? Was it only for 12?

In a covenant structure, authoritative offices are passed down from generation to generation. An example would be the handing down of the rule of a king. This is also seen in the election of Matthias to take the place of Judas. This is how God's covenant with us in the Church works.
 
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Light of the East

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Sorry for so many questions. Why do I need a middle man between me and Christ to have forgiveness of sins? Or why do I need to confess my sins to anyone other than Christ?

Because God set up a community in which He placed His authority in certain people. Look at what happened to those who opposed Moses - not good!! Moses was God's friend and the leader (authority) of the covenant community.

A priest is an intermediary who represents the people to God and God to the people. Notice that that priesthood does not stop with the establishment of the New Covenant. In Revelation we are told that through Christ, we are made "kings and priests unto God." St. Peter says the same thing in one of his epistles.

Why do we need an intermediary. Because no created thing can deal directly with God nor see His face and live. And in this life, sinful people especially need an intermediary. It is the system which God Himself has established.
 
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Light of the East

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The various positions among Christians as to the perpetuity or non-perpetuity of hell I have described in an analogy of professional Los Angeles sports teams.

LAKERS believe in ECT in a literal lake of fire.

CLIPPERS are Annihilationists, who think when the silver cord of Ecclesiastes is clipped, the damned just die when they die.

DODGERS believe in a non-perpetual hell.

So Christians as a whole are not in the same ball park on this, sometimes not even the same game.


Hahahahaha!!!! Thanks for injecting a little lightheartedness into the conversation. !!!!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Bad? No.
Sinful? Debatable.
Inaccurate? Yes. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41),unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
I have a post on that and was just thinking of starting a thread on it...

The Lake Of Fire

Isa 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear, And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,” Says the LORD,
Whose fire is in Zion
And whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

Jer 17:27
But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.' ”

Mark 9 YLT

42and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43‘And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire — the unquenchable —44where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45‘And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire — the unquenchable46where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire — 48where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
===================
Fairly good vid on it:

 
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jcm2000

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Because God set up a community in which He placed His authority in certain people. Look at what happened to those who opposed Moses - not good!! Moses was God's friend and the leader (authority) of the covenant community.

A priest is an intermediary who represents the people to God and God to the people. Notice that that priesthood does not stop with the establishment of the New Covenant. In Revelation we are told that through Christ, we are made "kings and priests unto God." St. Peter says the same thing in one of his epistles.

Why do we need an intermediary. Because no created thing can deal directly with God nor see His face and live. And in this life, sinful people especially need an intermediary. It is the system which God Himself has established.

Yeah, I don't need fallen human being levitical priest as a representative to God on behalf of my sins so that I can be forgiven. I Jesus as my high priest. And now I can come to God's throne with boldness. you'll have to explain how Hebrews 4 fits into what you referenced. Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
 
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Light of the East

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Yes, it does. The parallelism in the verse makes this unavoidably clear.

There is no parallelism. You fail to realize that the nature of the adjective is defined by the noun that it defines. Example: a tall dog was being walked by a tall man next to a tall skyscraper. Now would you say that all of them are of equal height and that the word "tall" has the same meaning for each of the nouns there?

Take your own advice. I have studied the passage and know whereof I speak. Can't say the same for you.

I think the Greek speaking saints of the first couple of centuries of the Church understood the language of that day in a more clear manner than any of us do. Remember that the idea of an eternal punishment began in earnest with Augustine, who not only did not understand Greek, but hated the language by his own admission. We are facing today 1500 years of Western and Latin (Roman Catholic) influence regarding the translations of the Scriptures.

Well, regardless of whatever eschatological commitments you have, the verse itself communicates a direct parallel between the forever life of the righteous and the forever punishment of the wicked. No number of eschatological convolutions can dissolve the plain meaning of the parallel in Matthew 25:46.

Nope. See above response.

And you seem to have missed that Revelations 14:10-11 says nothing about he who has taken the Mark of the Beast being tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. It says only that the smoke of their torment rises forever (which the verse does not say rises so before the Lamb). The duration of time of their torment before the Lamb is not indicated. 2 Thessalonians tells us, though, that it won't be forever. See? No contradiction, if you read carefully. And I still think annihilationism is an entirely unbiblical belief.

Doesn't say that at all. Honestly, if God had wanted that said in the verses you mention, He would have had the writer to use the word "adidios" which means eternal, rather than aion, which means "of the age."

14:11kaὶ ὁ καπνὸς τοῦ βασανισμοῦ αὐτῶν ἀναβαίνει εἰς
αἰῶνας αἰώνωνκαὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτός οἱ προσκυνοῦντες τὸ θηρίονκαὶ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ εἴ τις λαμβάνει τὸ χάραγμα τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ

αἰῶνας αἰώνων aion aion


Remember, at the end of the ages, Christ will subdue all enemies to Himself and then turn the kingdom over to God so that God shall be "all in all." This dire warning means that those who are spoken of in Revelation shall be tormented (the Greek word βασανισμός actually means "refined") until all is reconciled in Christ.
 
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Light of the East

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Yeah, I don't need fallen human being levitical priest as a representative to God on behalf of my sins so that I can be forgiven. I Jesus as my high priest. And now I can come to God's throne with boldness. you'll have to explain how Hebrews 4 fits into what you referenced. Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


You need to study this issue more. A high priest does not forgive personal sins. A high priest had one function and one only - to offer Yom Kippur (Leviticus 16) on the day of Yom Kippur. In Hebrews 7-10, Jesus is shown to be the Great High Priest who offers not an animal sacrifice for the corporate sins of the nation, but rather His own Blood, the perfect Sacrifice. This is why the Church cannot break its covenant with God, because the Great High Priest makes an eternal Yom Kippur in the "tabernacle not made with hands in the heavenlies."

Go study Hebrews 7-10 and you will see that this is what is being spoken of. You cannot mix the two offices.
 
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martymonster

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It should be noted that "torment" is the following word that originally meant something different than what in the English we think of concerning torment. Torment - (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. This is quite interesting because we also see sulfur. Which if the "Torment" is really basanois - Which means to test the purity of metals - which to me brings to light - the many scriptures concerning Gold tried in the fire. Then sulfur makes sense because sulfur is used to help purify metals including gold in metallurgy. In metallurgy its a delicate process, because you can destroy the Gold in the fire. And God does have the power to do so as stated in Matthew 10:28 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. None of this makes any sense if the words everlasting, forever and ever mean without end or eternal. It only makes sense for what the original means as is "For a Age, Age long/lasting, ages of the ages" not without end.

Which also fits with what Peter is saying here.


1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

It's worth pointing out here, that God's fire is not only for the purpose of testing, but refinement.
 
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