Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

[Light of the East]

In this whole debate, I just ask the simple question. Did Jesus have victory or not? If we say he did, what is the extent of that victory?

Allow me to ask a second pertinent question:

What does non-stop, never-ending torment accomplish?

 

[Light of the East]

Was God a sociopath when He destroyed entire cities, Sodom, Gomorrah and cities of the plain with fire; old, young, men, women, children, infants? Was God a sociopath when He commanded the Israelites to attack Canaanite cities and kill every living person in them, old, young, men, women, children, infants?

No. Because that did not last forever. Now if God has plans to roast them alive with no mercy, no chance of forgiveness, no opportunity of escape, then He would certainly meet that definition, wouldn't He? But God is love and you cannot prove to me that love in any way, shape, or form acts in such a horrid manner, especially to sentient beings whom He has created and loves.

If the all-knowing, timeless Father created children whom He knew would fall, and by doing so would wind up creating a situation wherein there would be endless suffering for billions of people, without having a plan in His all-knowledge and all-power, then you could say that He would be a sociopath, but that is not our God. That is the God of heathens and the ideas vengeful man imprinted upon His character.

Can you really love a Father who would do such things to your brothers and sisters just because they never heard the Bible, never heard of Jesus, never were born at the right time, etc? Or is your "love" more that you are scared spitless to step away from the idea of such a vengeful God and actually believe that He will eventually save all mankind?

I don't find such a Father as the one in whom you believe to be comforting at all. I find Him terrifying.

 

[Light of the East]

I guess it depends on whether you believe in the bible and what it contains. There are multiple scriptures that discuss Hell - eternal. You either believe the bible in its entirety or you don't. You can't take scriptures you agree with and reject those you don't.

God does not want ANYONE to perish. He wants ALL to CHOOSE HIM who is love and eternal life and all that is good. Those who end up in Hell CHOOSE to REJECT Him and in doing so effectively choose Hell.

Frankly anywhere where God is not, is Hell.

God doesn't "want" any such thing. This is the problem with reading translations that have been deliberately corrupted by men with an agenda of some sort to fill out.

1 Tim 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is, it is God's will to have all men be saved, not a wish, not a fancy dream or a forlorn desire:

*sigh* " so wanted to save them all but they wouldn't let me, the all powerful, all loving God, do it. Woe is me!"

What a weak and pathetic God some people believe in, Who cannot bring all His holy will as expressed in the Bible to pass.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Really? You don't even believe "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood" and you are going to virtue signal about hermeneutics????

That's laughable.

"I AM the door" "I AM the manna"

You rascals got a lot to learn.

 

[Light of the East]

"I AM the door" "I AM the manna"

You rascals got a lot to learn.

You obviously don't understand the difference between when Christ was using metaphor and when He was speaking literally. The Early Fathers of the Church did, and they learned directly from the Apostles, unlike John Calvin, whom the Early Fathers would run out of Constantinople screaming "HERETIC!!! HERETIC!!!" at the top of their lungs.

 

[Light of the East]

You obviously don't understand the difference between when Christ was using metaphor and when He was speaking literally. The Early Fathers of the Church did, and they learned directly from the Apostles, unlike John Calvin, whom the Early Fathers would run out of Constantinople screaming "HERETIC!!! HERETIC!!!" at the top of their lungs.

But I'm supposed to believe a man who changed 1500 years of Christian teaching??? Give me a break.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You obviously don't understand the difference between when Christ was using metaphor and when He was speaking literally. The Early Fathers of the Church did, and they learned directly from the Apostles, unlike John Calvin, whom the Early Fathers would run out of Constantinople screaming "HERETIC!!! HERETIC!!!" at the top of their lungs.

Pot, meet kettle...

 

[Light of the East]

Pot, meet kettle...

Whatever.....

 

[Saint Steven]

God doesn't "want" any such thing. This is the problem with reading translations that have been deliberately corrupted by men with an agenda of some sort to fill out.

1 Tim 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is, it is God's will to have all men be saved, not a wish, not a fancy dream or a forlorn desire:

*sigh* " so wanted to save them all but they wouldn't let me, the all powerful, all loving God, do it. Woe is me!"

What a weak and pathetic God some people believe in, Who cannot bring all His holy will as expressed in the Bible to pass.

Right. Well said.

God's will is done in heaven.
We are to pray that it will be done on earth. (as it already is in heaven)
If it is his will to save all humankind, it will take place in heaven. (where his will is always done)

Matthew 6:10
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[jcm2000]

Allow me to ask a second pertinent question:

What does non-stop, never-ending torment accomplish?

The failure of Christ to seek and save that which was lost.

 

[Cherrein]

God doesn't "want" any such thing. This is the problem with reading translations that have been deliberately corrupted by men with an agenda of some sort to fill out.

1 Tim 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is, it is God's will to have all men be saved, not a wish, not a fancy dream or a forlorn desire:

*sigh* " so wanted to save them all but they wouldn't let me, the all powerful, all loving God, do it. Woe is me!"

What a weak and pathetic God some people believe in, Who cannot bring all His holy will as expressed in the Bible to pass.

2 Peter 3-9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<OT>You fancy yourself knowledgeable about the Greek but in spite of that you ignore the Greek grammar or are completely oblivious to it. Rom 8:13 takes the form of 1st class conditional sentences which I suppose I don't have to tell you what that means do I? Thus Rom 8:13 remains problematic for you since the protasis is assumed to be true and the apodosis is likewise true as well. In order to form your doctrine all scripture must be reconciled with your belief since Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Care to try again and wrestle with the text instead of evading it?
Moreover, your appeal to Jesus teaching the opposite of Paul is fallacious. Jesus like Paul, taught that a regenerated believer can become spiritually dead because he/she is living according to the flesh. Care to venture a guess? You have a high opinion of your ability so I'll let you take a stab at it first.<OT>

end

I thank you for the failed attempt to correct me. You are still trying to make Jesus a liar by quoting one verse from Paul out-of-context.
Jesus said "aionios/eternal life ...should not perish,""aionios/eternal life ...should not perish,"
Please show me where Paul contradicted Jesus and said that those who have eternal life will die?
Let's read your verse in-context.

Rom 8:12-14
(12) Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
(13) For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
(14) For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.​

The converse of vs. 14 is "those who are NOT led by the Spirit of God are NOT the children of God."
Only those who do not live by the spirit will die. Those who "by the Spirit ...put to death the misdeeds of the body, ...will live.
Those who live by the spirit have eternal life.
Those who do not live by the spirit do not have eternal life. As Jesus said, "aionios/eternal life...should not perish,""aionios/eternal life...should not perish."

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<LE>God doesn't "want" any such thing. This is the problem with reading translations that have been deliberately corrupted by men with an agenda of some sort to fill out.
1 Tim 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
That is, it is God's will to have all men be saved, not a wish, not a fancy dream or a forlorn desire:
*sigh* " so wanted to save them all but they wouldn't let me, the all powerful, all loving God, do it. Woe is me!"
What a weak and pathetic God some people believe in, Who cannot bring all His holy will as expressed in the Bible to pass.<LE>

end

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said "I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them."

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<LO>No. Because that did not last forever. Now if God has plans to roast them alive with no mercy, no chance of forgiveness, no opportunity of escape, then He would certainly meet that definition, wouldn't He? But God is love and you cannot prove to me that love in any way, shape, or form acts in such a horrid manner, especially to sentient beings whom He has created and loves.
If the all-knowing, timeless Father created children whom He knew would fall, and by doing so would wind up creating a situation wherein there would be endless suffering for billions of people, without having a plan in His all-knowledge and all-power, then you could say that He would be a sociopath, but that is not our God. That is the God of heathens and the ideas vengeful man imprinted upon His character.
Can you really love a Father who would do such things to your brothers and sisters just because they never heard the Bible, never heard of Jesus, never were born at the right time, etc? Or is your "love" more that you are scared spitless to step away from the idea of such a vengeful God and actually believe that He will eventually save all mankind?
I don't find such a Father as the one in whom you believe to be comforting at all. I find Him terrifying.<LO>

end

Ah yes, I have heard these universalist slogans many times but no scriptures to support it.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[Philip_B]

Perfect Love cast out fear

 

[Oldmantook]

<OT>You fancy yourself knowledgeable about the Greek but in spite of that you ignore the Greek grammar or are completely oblivious to it. Rom 8:13 takes the form of 1st class conditional sentences which I suppose I don't have to tell you what that means do I? Thus Rom 8:13 remains problematic for you since the protasis is assumed to be true and the apodosis is likewise true as well. In order to form your doctrine all scripture must be reconciled with your belief since Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Care to try again and wrestle with the text instead of evading it?
Moreover, your appeal to Jesus teaching the opposite of Paul is fallacious. Jesus like Paul, taught that a regenerated believer can become spiritually dead because he/she is living according to the flesh. Care to venture a guess? You have a high opinion of your ability so I'll let you take a stab at it first.<OT>
I thank you for the failed attempt to correct me. You are still trying to make Jesus a liar by quoting one verse from Paul out-of-context.
Jesus said "aionios/eternal life ...should not perish,""aionios/eternal life ...should not perish,"
Please show me where Paul contradicted Jesus and said that those who have eternal life will die?
Let's read your verse in-context.

Rom 8:12-14
(12) Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
(13) For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
(14) For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.​

The converse of vs. 14 is "those who are NOT led by the Spirit of God are NOT the children of God."
Only those who do not live by the spirit will die. Those who "by the Spirit ...put to death the misdeeds of the body, ...will live.
Those who live by the spirit have eternal life.
Those who do not live by the spirit do not have eternal life. As Jesus said, "aionios/eternal life...should not perish,""aionios/eternal life...should not perish."

You pride yourself on your knowledge of Greek and I respect that. But in order to cling to your doctrine you avoid dealing the the Greek sentence structure of Rom 8:13. Do you deny that it is a 1st class conditional sentence and what that entails? I assume you know. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Even someone without any knowledge of the Greek can easily read the plain English but apparently your biases get in the way. Note that the word "IF" in this verse can only apply to believers because only believers have the choice if to choose sin or if to not choose sin - to sow to the flesh or to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as they are unregenerated, they can only choose to sin. It is not a matter of "if" unbelievers sin; instead it is "since" they sin. Paul's use of the word IF plainly indicates that he is addressing the regenerated believer and never the unbeliever as you claim.

You also avoided answering my question as to where in the NT does Jesus teach spiritual death for believers who habitually sin. Care to hazard a guess? Jesus is not a liar is he?

 

[mmksparbud]

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Which in no way translates to God sitting around watching these tormented people for eternity---You always have a lot to write but never much to say. You post but you do not seem to understand what you post. Your emphasis is on the wrong word. "will not have mercy but destroy them." God must destroy sin. That means destroying sinners. Not something He wants to do but must for everyone else's sake.
God will not force anyone to accept and love Him, the choice is one done of free will. It is His wish for everyone to be saved---but He won't force it---those who choose to die, He will honor their wish.
Again,God never told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn forever---He clearly said they would die. God does not deceive, lie or tell half truths.
I've always maintained that those who believe in an ever burning hell, says more about them that it does about God. That is one seriously wide streak of sadism running down their back to want that for someone they supposedly love---like their own child, mother, grandmother -- when there is an obvious other meaning, why stick to so statistic a one? It does make me wonder who hurt anyone that bad that they would take delight in seeing someone tortured for eternity. Do they torture their animals? Kick their babies, burn them with cigarettes for fun, pull the wings of butterflies? It is pretty sick to envision such a God. And if you do not know God, He will not know you. He doesn't want people who delight in torture in His kingdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Peter 3-9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

ANY and ALL.
Not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (amen)

 

[Der Alte]

You pride yourself on your knowledge of Greek and I respect that. But in order to cling to your doctrine you avoid dealing the the Greek sentence structure of Rom 8:13. Do you deny that it is a 1st class conditional sentence and what that entails? I assume you know. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Even someone without any knowledge of the Greek can easily read the plain English but apparently your biases get in the way. Note that the word "IF" in this verse can only apply to believers because only believers have the choice if to choose sin or if to not choose sin - to sow to the flesh or to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as they are unregenerated, they can only choose to sin.

It is not a matter of "if" unbelievers sin; instead it is "since" they sin. Paul's use of the word IF plainly indicates that he is addressing the regenerated believer and never the unbeliever as you claim.
You also avoided answering my question as to where in the NT does Jesus teach spiritual death for believers who habitually sin. Care to hazard a guess? Jesus is not a liar is he?

Wrong! As I have shown you from the full context of the verse. One cannot yank one verse out of its context and make a grammatical argument trying to make it say the opposite of what it does say.
You might want to read Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Dr. Dan Wallace pg. 708. Please note the examples at the bottom.

The protasis of the first class condition does not always, or even usually, state its hypothesis as a fact.
The common misconception that it does so, even that it usually does so, has led to serious exegetical errors. Others have said it before, though none so convincingly as Boyer in his 1981 article. He pointed out that only 37% of first class conditions could be accurately presented as meaning "since.” It needs to be emphatically stated here that the first class condition does not mean “since.” One of the best demonstrations of this is seen in Matthew 12:27-28, discussed earlier.
There are a number of such couplets of opposites in the NT in which the first class condition is used in both arguments. It is impossible, in such passages, to claim that the first class condition means since both times. Cf. John 10:37-38; 15:20 (twice); 18:23 (twice); Acts 25:11 (twice); Romans 8:13 (twice); 1 Cor 9:17 (twice); 2 Cor 7:8-9: 2 Tim 2:12 (thrice); 1 Pet 2.20 (twice).​

I have never stated or implied "Jesus teaches spiritual death for believers who habitually sin." Perhaps you should actually read what I did write.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<MM>Which in no way translates to God sitting around watching these tormented people for eternity---You always have a lot to write but never much to say. You post but you do not seem to understand what you post. Your emphasis is on the wrong word. "will not have mercy but destroy them." God must destroy sin. That means destroying sinners. Not something He wants to do but must for everyone else's sake.
God will not force anyone to accept and love Him, the choice is one done of free will. It is His wish for everyone to be saved---but He won't force it---those who choose to die, He will honor their wish.
Again,God never told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn forever---He clearly said they would die. God does not deceive, lie or tell half truths.
I've always maintained that those who believe in an ever burning hell, says more about them that it does about God. That is one seriously wide streak of sadism running down their back to want that for someone they supposedly love---like their own child, mother, grandmother -- when there is an obvious other meaning, why stick to so statistic a one? It does make me wonder who hurt anyone that bad that they would take delight in seeing someone tortured for eternity. Do they torture their animals? Kick their babies, burn them with cigarettes for fun, pull the wings of butterflies? It is pretty sick to envision such a God. And if you do not know God, He will not know you. He doesn't want people who delight in torture in His kingdom.<MM>

end

An insulting argument from hysteria NOT scripture. And which totally ignores the point of my post which you quoted.