• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Light of the East, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
  2. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater Jesus Christ conquers! Supporter

    +6,680
    Holy See (vatican City State)
    Traditional. Cath.
    Single
    Hell will be eternal, but not in the sense like neverending days, weeks and years of suffering. Time is a funny concept and it only exists in our form on earth.
    God is above time and so are we once we end our pilgrimage on earth.
    So both heaven and hell will last forever, but in a sense of eternal presence.

    The concept of linear time has to be forgotten as we speak of time in the afterlife
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  3. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You are either oblivious to or ignore what believers are obligated to do in "deciding who is or who is not an obedient believer." It is certainly within your purview to correct a disobedient brother if you see him sinning and/or wandering from the truth as James 5:19-20 instructs us to do. If you do so and your brother turns back from his wandering ways, you will have saved his SOUL FROM DEATH. This passage like Rom 8:13 totally negates your doctrine of eternal security. Not to mention your neglect to address Jesus' own teaching of spiritual death for the prodigal son who was made alive AGAIN. Dead figuratively? How so may I ask? How can someone be made alive again from figurative death? Since the prodigal did not physically die, Jesus can only have been referencing spiritual death. You forget that Jesus himself was telling this parable using the father's perspective to make a point so according to Jesus' purview, the son was dead.

    Did you not read what I wrote regarding your citation of Heb 6? Did you not notice the present tense participles in v.6? Since they are still crucifying and shaming Christ, their ongoing actions demonstrate no repentance, therefore it is impossible to renew them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness. If they should repent in the future, God can forgive but the text does not address that future possibility.

    As for your contention ει can mean since. The word can mean since but many times it does not as context is a big factor. Ironically, you previously cited Dan Wallace as a scholarly reference but this is what he had to say about interpreting 1st class conditions as since.
    The Myth about the Meaning of First Class Conditions in Greek | Bible.org
     
  4. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,127
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    God has impressed upon me many times that He is a God of total, complete and perfect Justice. Those who reject Jesus sacrifice will receive exactly what they deserve. The word destruction is used a lot in the Bible and is worth doing a study on.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Here is what I was referring to when I said it is not in my purview. "So assuming that, does that make a disobedient believer unsaved, or was he never saved in the first place?" I can observe when a fellow Christian is being disobedient but I cannot determine if he/she is/was saved or unsaved.
    Whatever gave you the idea I believed in OSAS? I think my comments on Heb 6:4-6 clearly dispel that idea.

    Read the scripture Jesus did not say the son was dead, the father did.

    Luke 15:24
    (24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
    The human father could not determine if his son was spiritually dead. So he would have used nekros/dead figuratively. Several years ago I knew a Jewish soldier in the Army who became a messianic Jew overseas. When he told his parents they "sat shiva" on him. They considered him dead. So he rejected Christianity.
    I have no problem with this but it is totally in God's purview not man's.
    Read my post again. It was not my contention I was quoting Dr. Wallace. I think the figure is 37% of the usages it can mean since. I agree context determines and Dr. Wallace gave several examples.
    "Thus, for example, in 1 Cor 15:44 Paul declares "If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual [body]" [εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν]. It is obvious that Paul believes in the existence of a physical body. Hence, many are prompted to translate this conditional particle as 'since.'"
    Your link does not contradict my quote from GGBB.
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    After hearing the arguments that "God is going to save all mankind" and "God will destroy the unrighteous" a multitude of times I did do a study of the word translated "destroy."
    .....ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi the word translated destroyed in the NT occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
    (1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger
    , (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
    The full definition of appolumi from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon online.

    ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
    1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
    a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
    b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
    b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it).
    2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
    a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
    b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
    . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
    A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker


     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  7. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That is true as one cannot just assume some else is saved or unsaved. However James specifically references a brother who wanders from the truth which cannot refer to an unsaved person since Scripture never references a brother as someone who is unsaved and it is impossible for an unsaved person to wander from the truth since he was never in the truth to begin with.

    Do you believe that a genuine believer, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, not persevere in the faith and therefore no longer possess eternal life? Yes or No? Simple question.

    Jesus was reciting the story from the father's point of view so your claim is irrelevant. Jesus did not dispute the father's account did he? Moreover, Jesus repeats the same phrase "was dead and is alive again" twice thereby given emphasis to the main point of his parable.

    God's purview yes but also subject to our correct interpretation of what the scriptures actually say. This passage has been widely misinterpreted to mean that if a person loses his/her salvation, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. The participle tenses do not support that view.

    So given that the majority of time, it means "if" why do choose to instead interpret as since? Is it because you believe not all are believers in the congregation as you alluded to? I don't find that convincing as Paul addressed them as "brethren" v.12. So collectively, I assume he was referencing genuine believers. I can't recall one scripture where Paul writes to an unbeliever. In Rom 1:7 he makes it clear that he is writing to the saints - not saints and unbelievers. Moreover, ζῆτε in v.13 is in the plural form as in "you all" which indicates to me he is assuming all brethren to be believers.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Absolutely we are not transformed into mindless robots when we become Christians.
    Jesus never affirmed it nor denied it. Jesus knew that a mere man cannot determine if someone is spiritually dead. A mortal man saying a son who had run away was dead would be using the word "dead" figuratively.

    (24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
    Luke 15:32
    (32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    It most certainly does state that someone who is saved can lose their salvation despite your attempted hocus pocus with participles.
    Hebrews 6:4-6
    (4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    Only those who are saved can fall away no matter how you try to juggle words.

    I didn't you did! You said for unbelievers it was not "if" they sin but "since" they sin.
    In all these verses Paul addressed the Jews as brethren, even those who were trying to kill him. Acts of the apostles 23:6 Acts of the apostles 28:17 Acts of the apostles 23:5 Acts of the apostles 23:1 Acts of the apostles 22:1
     
  9. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You evaded the question. We are not mindless robots and there are consequences for the decisions and actions we make. Habitual sin unrepented of leads to spiritual death for the believer. Yes or No?

    Jesus taught the parable from the father's perspective, therefore what the father states in the parable is what Jesus affirms and is meant for us to understand.

    Of course it states that someone can lose their salvation. And of course, only the saved can fall away since they were never in the faith to begin with. The use of the present tense participles is not hocus-pocus but evidences the fact that these saved people were now involved in habitual sin - crucifying and shaming Christ. Because of their repeated actions, they were unrepentant and thus it was impossible to restore them to repentance. This is not rocket science. You fancy yourself a Greek student yet you dismiss the grammatical construction.

    That is why Paul used the word IF because he was addressing genuine believers because only believers have the choice if they should choose to live according to the flesh or if they should choose to live according to the Spirit. He did not use the word "since" because he did intend to address his warning to unbelievers.

    Why do you appeal to other passages when the immediate context of the whole chapter of Rom 8 makes it clear that he is addressing the brethren in Rome who have the indwelling Spirit??
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Not necessarily. It was not stopping sinning that saves therefore it is not sinning which makes one "lose" salvation.
    Nonsense. The father could not determine what Jesus would say. In some circumstances even Jews today will consider a child dead.
    I said this earlier in the 70s I was stationed in Korea a Jewish soldier friend became a messianic Jew. When he told his parents they considered him dead and sat shiva for him. He rejected his Christian faith and returned to Judaism.

    To say "the saved can fall away since they were never in the faith to begin with." is a contradiction. If one is saved they are in the faith, if they are not in the faith they are not saved.
    When you can cite a credible scholar on your participle argument then I might accept it.
    Dead horse stop beating it. Show me some credible scholarship.
    You ignored my argument. Paul saying brethren does not prove the entire Roman church consisted of saved individuals as I have shown from other verses.
     
  11. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    "...not sinning which makes you lose your salvation? So sinless perfection is your cup of tea??

    Uh...Jesus told the parable directly out of his mouth - not the father's. Even you should be able to see that but I guess not. Thus Jesus's statements regarding the spiritual state of the son are true and accurate. You are free to choose otherwise.

    Your logic is fallible. It ignores that one can be in the faith but fall away/depart from the faith. How can can one apostate from the faith if he/she was never in the faith to begin with? Simply impossible.

    To your detriment, you rely on "scholarship" which can sometimes merely amount to the traditions of men. An unwise thing to do but certainly your choice. Since you prefer to rely on scholarship and ignore the warnings of Paul, may I suggest another Apostle - James who also wrote that whoever turns a brother who wanders from the truth from the error of his way will save him his soul from death. One can only wander from the truth if he were only in the truth to begin with. Death of the soul refers to spiritual death - not physical death. You prefer citing your scholarly writings; I prefer citing the Apostles' own writings.

    Paul stated "brethren" = saints. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. Up to now you have failed to do so. A writer or speaker can address his audience from his own frame of reference as he dictates his message to whomever he wants to address despite what may be a varied audience.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Maybe you are different but I have always found it helpful to actually read a post before responding. And if you are going to quote me do so in context to quote me out-of-context as you did here is dishonest. One and only warning.

    So we are to assume that the father in the parable of the prodigal son was omniscient and was able to state categorically that his wayward son was spiritually dead? Or do we conclude that the father was speaking figuratively since a human father does not have any power to deliver anyone from a lost state?
    This is contradictory. I believe and have stated that Christian believers are not robots or automatons. I believe that a solid believer can "lose" their salvation. But it is not a matter of "I had it here a minute ago now I can't find it."

    I have never said not implied that someone who is not saved can apostatize. I have said the opposite more than once in this thread.

    Nonsense! I think I can say without fear of contradiction that every professional you consult in any other field; medicine, law, accounting etc. was not born with knowledge of their field but they had to learn. i.e. scholarship.
    It seems that the field of theology is the only field where people can sit down with a book, i.e. the Bible, read it for some period and have perfect knowledge.
    The opposite of scholarship is leaning on one's own understanding

    I think it's fair to say you do not rely on the apostles writings!

    You very likely rely on a 400 year old translation of "the Apostles' own" writing which contains more than 800 words that have changed significantly in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether.
    It is unintelligible to people whose mother tongue is not English.
    I know from experience I have served in Korean churches for almost 4 decades.
    More nonsense. I most certainly have proved that Paul addressing a group as brethren does not mean they were saints.

    In these verses Paul addresses Jews as brethren Acts 23:1, 23:5, 23:6, 28:17 and they certainly were not saints. Ergo Paul addressing a group as brethren does not signify that they are all brothers.

    What is this supposed to mean?
     
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Perhaps you should reread your own posts to see if they make sense. You are capable of doing that lest I get the wrong impression.

    The father was not speaking. Jesus is speaking through the father to make his point. Do you know not how to interpret parables? Parables were Jesus' main teaching tool to illustrate spiritual truths. Your claim of figurative speaking is nonsense. You imagine that the father is saying the equivalent of "he's dead to me" as you used in employing your Korea experience. The problem with your figurative illustration is that the father of the prodigal never took that attitude toward his lost son. Instead, he looked forward to his son's return and threw a celebration when the prodigal returned home.

    So are you saying a believer can "lose" his salvation? If so, how just does a believer lose his salvation der alter? More details please? If you disagree, how do you explain James 5:19-20 which you totally ignored? Care to explain what James meant in light of what you believe?

    Nonsense. Scripture states "And you, the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But just as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him. 1 Jn 2:27

    Be more specific and refrain for speaking in generalities. In other words, deal with the textual evidence and and point out to me where it was changed according to your allegation.

    False. Acts 23 makes it clear that Paul who was also a Jew was speaking to his Jewish brethren which the verse clearly distinguishes. Your attempt to conflate Jewish brethren with Christian brethren whom Paul did address in Rom 8:13 is clearly without warrant. Same thing with Acts 28:17. Paul is addressing his Jewish brethren. Conflating the two and taking things out of context amounts to nothing more than eisegesis in order to support your belief.
     
  14. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

    713
    +429
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    So if I'm understanding you, God's justice can be summed up as follows. The divine sentence of justice passed on those who reject Jesus' sacrifice is annihilation.

    Take the example of the young rape victim who leaves a suicide note expressing her unbelief in Jesus because he didn't save her from her ordeal.

    Or the atheist war hero who gives his life holding back the enemy so his platoon can escape via the pontoon.

    They get whacked and justice is served?
     
  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,411
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    You would do far, far better to spend time meditating on 1 John 4: 8. And I don't mean just making a cursory reading of it and walking away. I mean thinking about everything you believe and asking yourself "Is this how love acts?"
     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,411
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Yeah, pretty much that's it. Never mind the Parable of the Prodigal and the picture it paints of the Father's love. Heck, He isn't even as much father as He is judge......and a mean-spirited judge with a bad case of hemorrhoids to make things even worse.
     
  17. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,127
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    God is love and God is also a God of Justice. One does not cancel out the other. This is why Jesus had to go to Calvary. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." 1John3:16

    God impressed upon me many times that He is a God of absolute Justice. HE must have a reason why He did that. I believe he sent an angel many times to personally deliver that message to me.
     
  18. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,127
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I am sorry, I should not have mixed those two together. I think the point of God wanting to tell me about HIS Justice is to deal with people that claim God is not Just. Those who rejects Jesus will get exactly what they deserve. Some people say the punishment is greater then the crime but I believe that God is Just and He will not allow some to suffer beyond what Justice requires.

    The Bible really does not give us much information about the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. We know this takes place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
     
  19. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,411
    United States
    Catholic
    Married

    Yours is a Western mindset. In the East, we do not think of God in that manner. The West is consumed with the idea of punishment, of God getting even, of His getting His "pound of flesh" and avenging His offended dignity. (The nonsense that Anselm of Canterbury invented).

    What do sick people deserve? A beating? Eternity in hell? Is that how a father treats his sick child? Is that the heart of a father? Our loving heavenly Father is unlimitedly better than that. He seeks to heal the sick child, not beat it.

    Now the medicine will be bitter and hard to take (the scourging of God's love - or what some Early Fathers called "hell.") but it is designed to heal, not to punish. It will feel like punishment, and in a sense you could call it that, but it is medicinal and not retributive.

    As I said, don't just jump to the keyboard to push out a response. Grab a nice Malt Lager (Yuengling is the best IMO) and really think of how love treats those it loves, even those who have offended it. You might want to read and reflect on the Parable of the Prodigal.

    The Prodigal Son Walking Through the Desert of Life
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  20. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,127
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This reminds me of the Jewish approach where they even believe reincarnation. If we do not get it right in this life then God gives us another life in the hope we will get it right then. The Dante approach to hell did have a profound impact on people.
     
Loading...