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Featured Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Light of the East, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. ilovejcsog

    ilovejcsog I am a Christian mutt.

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    "Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath. "
    You're calling God a sociopath?
     
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  2. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    For no reason, whatsoever! The won't be God's elect, however. The Lake of fire is merely judgement, there is no actual fire, but God's wrath and judgement, just like it is for God's elect in this Life.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That is not surprising if your got your definitions from the Damnationists Greek lexicon. Like Strong's. Try Young's Concordance. He also produced the literal translation you are wondering about.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    No. You are.
    If you believe in a forever burning hell, you are calling God a Sociopath.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <OT>You are certainly free to respond but cutting and pasting your favorite verse list regarding this subject repeatedly is unconvincing (to me) as we have debated some of those passages, always resulting in disagreement as to their meaning.
    Nonetheless regarding Jn 3:15-16. Correct me but if I understand your argument, you claim that since believers can perish in a finite period, then aionion must refer to eternal life.
    However, one's possession of eternal life has nothing to do the nature of eternal life in and of itself. Eternal life goes on being eternal irrespective of whether one possesses it or not. The basis of your claim is that believers can never perish in an infinite period, thus aionion must mean everlasting. I would argue that believers can also perish in an infinite period as well.
    Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul warned the brethren that if they live a lifestyle of fleshly living, they will die. The word "die" in this verse cannot refer to physical death because every single person dies physically no matter what kind of lifestyle they lived. Thus Paul's warning of chronic, unrepentant sin applies to spiritual death which means to perish in an infinite period.
    <OT>
    The red highlight is your unsupported opinion.
    How many credit hours of Greek do you have?
    Let me get this straight you take one verse written by Paul and call Jesus a liar?
    Jesus said twice "aionios/eternal life ... should not perish,""aionios/etrernal life...should not perish." But you say that if someone has "aionios/eternal life" they can perish. Paul or Jesus?
    Here is my rule for interpreting scripture Jesus is Lord not the disciples. The writings of the disciples must be interpreted to agree with what Jesus said not the wrong way round.
    Here are a few more verses where Jesus defines aionios life as eternal and one verse by the angel Gabriel.

    John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    Luke 1:33
    (33) [the angel Gabriel speaking to Mary]And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand and never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity
     
  6. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe you're just a bad person and don't know what's going to happen after you die. Here's the testimony from not only a 100% universally accepted bad person even by his own words but also has a response from Jesus. Luke 23:43
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


    Hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and all his followers and they will be no more. God remakes the earth and there will be no more tears, no more pain, sin or sorrow. As long as there is Satan, or any sinner burning in hell, there is pain, sorrow, tears. They will not continue to burn forever. Jesus and the angels have more important things to do for eternity than to sit and watch people writhing in agony.

    Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    To the contrary dear W! The identical group of sinners in Adam1 are the group "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Archegos & Prodomos!
     
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  9. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Do you see that as a progression?
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Marty: I see it as a Divine Math equation of unparalleled proportion with the "all the more" strongly stacked in favour of the A. & P.

    (Not the defunct Tea Company)
     
  11. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    Cool story bro..
     
  12. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    My understanding is that it is a progression. We all start off as Adam and end up as Christ.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    .....See my comment earlier about so-called "literal translations."
    .....I don't know about you but I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have found that I did not quote one single word from any lexicon. What I did do was show how the words aion and aionios were defined by scripture itself in the verses where the words were used.
    .....I speak more than one language, the first language I learned, after English, was German when I was about 12. One of my teachers had learned German in college and had his text book in the classroom. He loaned it to me so for about a year I read and wrote and asked questions and I had a working knowledge of German.
    .....I was fortunate about 5 years later I was stationed in Germany where I learned even more. On my third tour in Germany in '63 I was talking with a friend she used a word I did not know it was "beinahe" pronounced "by-nah-eh." So she explained it to me something like this "It is not yet 11 o'clock but beinahe 11 o'clock." I understood "beinahe" means "almost."
    .....I said all that to say this, suppose we had a writing in Greek that reads
    ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον

    And we know enough Greek to know that the first eleven words mean "That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have life αιωνιον. So what does that last word mean? Jesus gave us a hint when He said "μη αποληται" which means "'should not perish." So we know that "life αιωνιον." never perishes.
    When you have a few semesters of Greek then you might have the knowledge to determine which lexicons are credible and which are not.
    A concordance is not a lexicon. Concordances only who where and how a particular word is used.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  14. jcm2000

    jcm2000 New Member

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    In this whole debate, I just ask the simple question. Did Jesus have victory or not? If we say he did, what is the extent of that victory?
     
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  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This verse has nothing to do with man's eternal fate but what would happen to the king of Tyrus in this life. vs. 12
    Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell if it is the grave, as many people say, is a hole in the ground. A hole cannot be thrown anywhere. If it means the place of punishment then it can be thrown. But there is a scriptural answer.

    Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angel of death and the demon of hell can be thrown in to the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Didn't the "bad person" ask Jesus to remember him before he died?
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Yah, I've heard your stuff before and it has nothing to do with what the bible says. You are welcome to your believes, I do not in any way share them. I can read the bible for myself and nowadays there are countless websites where you can find the scriptures in their original languages with countless commentaries. You pick and choose buffet style, I prefer to take in the whole dinner. There is no immortality of the soul. It is of Greek philosophy. I take what the bible says.

    1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
     
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  18. Alien Lotus

    Alien Lotus Member

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    No.
    Before it was fire and brimstone it was Sheol, the abyss, the grave.
    An eternal suffering for finite sins? That's of man and his vengeance, not that of an omni-benevolent eternally knowing father God.
     
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  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Marty: There is no question that Father's Plan begins in a fallen man and cascades in progression (present continuous) into a new Man in the A. & P. the Saviour of the all. I like your thought muchly!
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Jcm: There are no simple questions in our Father's Realm. But He simply is the Victor over death and hell and all that the fall has brought upon broken lost sinners.

    The extent of the victory=

    The entire polus "made sinners" = the identical polus "made righteous."

    The whole radical all!
     
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