Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

ilovejcsog · Aug 10, 2019

"Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath. "
You're calling God a sociopath?

martymonster · Aug 10, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Billions have never even heard the name of Christ. For what crime do you sentence them to eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire with no hope of escape?

For no reason, whatsoever! The won't be God's elect, however. The Lake of fire is merely judgement, there is no actual fire, but God's wrath and judgement, just like it is for God's elect in this Life.

Saint Steven · Aug 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
.In this thread I have posted list of 22 verses which show conclusively that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal and nobody has disproved that.

That is not surprising if your got your definitions from the Damnationists Greek lexicon. Like Strong's. Try Young's Concordance. He also produced the literal translation you are wondering about.

Saint Steven · Aug 10, 2019

ilovejcsog said:
You're calling God a sociopath?

No. You are.
If you believe in a forever burning hell, you are calling God a Sociopath.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2019

Oldmantook said:
begin

<OT>You are certainly free to respond but cutting and pasting your favorite verse list regarding this subject repeatedly is unconvincing (to me) as we have debated some of those passages, always resulting in disagreement as to their meaning.
Nonetheless regarding Jn 3:15-16. Correct me but if I understand your argument, you claim that since believers can perish in a finite period, then aionion must refer to eternal life.
However, one's possession of eternal life has nothing to do the nature of eternal life in and of itself. Eternal life goes on being eternal irrespective of whether one possesses it or not. The basis of your claim is that believers can never perish in an infinite period, thus aionion must mean everlasting. I would argue that believers can also perish in an infinite period as well.
Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul warned the brethren that if they live a lifestyle of fleshly living, they will die. The word "die" in this verse cannot refer to physical death because every single person dies physically no matter what kind of lifestyle they lived. Thus Paul's warning of chronic, unrepentant sin applies to spiritual death which means to perish in an infinite period.<OT>

end

The red highlight is your unsupported opinion.
How many credit hours of Greek do you have?
Let me get this straight you take one verse written by Paul and call Jesus a liar?
Jesus said twice "aionios/eternal life ... should not perish,""aionios/etrernal life...should not perish." But you say that if someone has "aionios/eternal life" they can perish. Paul or Jesus?
Here is my rule for interpreting scripture Jesus is Lord not the disciples. The writings of the disciples must be interpreted to agree with what Jesus said not the wrong way round.
Here are a few more verses where Jesus defines aionios life as eternal and one verse by the angel Gabriel.

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

Luke 1:33
(33) [the angel Gabriel speaking to Mary]And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand and never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity

Norbert L · Aug 10, 2019

Light of the East said:
To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

Maybe you're just a bad person and don't know what's going to happen after you die. Here's the testimony from not only a 100% universally accepted bad person even by his own words but also has a response from Jesus. Luke 23:43

mmksparbud · Aug 10, 2019

Light of the East said:
To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and all his followers and they will be no more. God remakes the earth and there will be no more tears, no more pain, sin or sorrow. As long as there is Satan, or any sinner burning in hell, there is pain, sorrow, tears. They will not continue to burn forever. Jesus and the angels have more important things to do for eternity than to sit and watch people writhing in agony.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

FineLinen · Aug 10, 2019

THE W said:
those who are in adam and are not in Christ.

To the contrary dear W! The identical group of sinners in Adam1 are the group "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Archegos & Prodomos!

martymonster · Aug 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
To the contrary dear W! The identical group of sinners in Adam1 are the group "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Archegos & Prodomos!

Do you see that as a progression?

FineLinen · Aug 10, 2019

martymonster said:
Do you see that as a progression?

Dear Marty: I see it as a Divine Math equation of unparalleled proportion with the "all the more" strongly stacked in favour of the A. & P.

(Not the defunct Tea Company)

S.O.J.I.A. · Aug 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
To the contrary dear W! The identical group of sinners in Adam1 are the group "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Archegos & Prodomos!

Cool story bro..

martymonster · Aug 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Marty: I see it as a Divine Math equation of unparalleled proportion with the "all the more" strongly stacked in favour of the A. & P.

(Not the defunct Tea Company)

My understanding is that it is a progression. We all start off as Adam and end up as Christ.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That is not surprising if your got your definitions from the Damnationists Greek lexicon. Like Strong's. Try Young's Concordance. He also produced the literal translation you are wondering about.

.....See my comment earlier about so-called "literal translations."
.....I don't know about you but I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have found that I did not quote one single word from any lexicon. What I did do was show how the words aion and aionios were defined by scripture itself in the verses where the words were used.
.....I speak more than one language, the first language I learned, after English, was German when I was about 12. One of my teachers had learned German in college and had his text book in the classroom. He loaned it to me so for about a year I read and wrote and asked questions and I had a working knowledge of German.
.....I was fortunate about 5 years later I was stationed in Germany where I learned even more. On my third tour in Germany in '63 I was talking with a friend she used a word I did not know it was "beinahe" pronounced "by-nah-eh." So she explained it to me something like this "It is not yet 11 o'clock but beinahe 11 o'clock." I understood "beinahe" means "almost."
.....I said all that to say this, suppose we had a writing in Greek that reads
ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
And we know enough Greek to know that the first eleven words mean "That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have life αιωνιον. So what does that last word mean? Jesus gave us a hint when He said "μη αποληται" which means "'should not perish." So we know that "life αιωνιον." never perishes.
When you have a few semesters of Greek then you might have the knowledge to determine which lexicons are credible and which are not.
A concordance is not a lexicon. Concordances only who where and how a particular word is used.

jcm2000 · Aug 10, 2019

In this whole debate, I just ask the simple question. Did Jesus have victory or not? If we say he did, what is the extent of that victory?

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and all his followers and they will be no more. ..

This verse has nothing to do with man's eternal fate but what would happen to the king of Tyrus in this life. vs. 12
Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell if it is the grave, as many people say, is a hole in the ground. A hole cannot be thrown anywhere. If it means the place of punishment then it can be thrown. But there is a scriptural answer.

Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The angel of death and the demon of hell can be thrown in to the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2019

Norbert L said:
Maybe you're just a bad person and don't know what's going to happen after you die. Here's the testimony from not only a 100% universally accepted bad person even by his own words but also has a response from Jesus. Luke 23:43

Didn't the "bad person" ask Jesus to remember him before he died?

mmksparbud · Aug 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
This verse has nothing to do with man's eternal fate but what would happen to the king of Tyrus in this life. vs. 12
Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell if it is the grave, as many people say, is a hole in the ground. A hole cannot be thrown anywhere. If it means the place of punishment then it can be thrown. But there is a scriptural answer.

Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell can be thrown in to the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

Yah, I've heard your stuff before and it has nothing to do with what the bible says. You are welcome to your believes, I do not in any way share them. I can read the bible for myself and nowadays there are countless websites where you can find the scriptures in their original languages with countless commentaries. You pick and choose buffet style, I prefer to take in the whole dinner. There is no immortality of the soul. It is of Greek philosophy. I take what the bible says.

1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Alien Lotus · Aug 10, 2019

Light of the East said:
To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

No.
Before it was fire and brimstone it was Sheol, the abyss, the grave.
An eternal suffering for finite sins? That's of man and his vengeance, not that of an omni-benevolent eternally knowing father God.

FineLinen · Aug 10, 2019

martymonster said:
My understanding is that it is a progression. We all start off as Adam and end up as Christ.

Dear Marty: There is no question that Father's Plan begins in a fallen man and cascades in progression (present continuous) into a new Man in the A. & P. the Saviour of the all. I like your thought muchly!

FineLinen · Aug 10, 2019

jcm2000 said:
In this whole debate, I just ask the simple question. Did Jesus have victory or not? If we say he did, what is the extent of that victory?

Dear Jcm: There are no simple questions in our Father's Realm. But He simply is the Victor over death and hell and all that the fall has brought upon broken lost sinners.

The extent of the victory=

The entire polus "made sinners" = the identical polus "made righteous."

The whole radical all!

Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox

Veteran

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Dynamic UNO

Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Active Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency