Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

Saint Steven

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Check out this Anathema of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen from The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D. :

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)


• 9

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

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Good to know that the Church (capital C) put a curse on everyone reading (thinking about) this topic. Thanks.

Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
 
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Saint Steven

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The Bible is crystal clear that the first time a person sins he or she is a sinner worthy of God's anger. I am sure being made in God's image does not mean we are made free of sin because Adam and Eve, both made perfect and in the image of God, sinned.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1Cor.15:22 (see below)
Everyone included in "all die" is also included in "all made alive".
Who is included in "all die"?
Who is included in "all made alive"?
But each in turn... - 1Cor.15:23

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
 
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Saint Steven

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people don't go to hell for not receiving the gospel. they go to hell for being fallen sons and daughters in adam.
Who are you assigning to a forever burning hell with no hope of escape?
 
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Saint Steven

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Out of curiosity. At what point does infallibility end before becoming a tool for man's self justification?
Any claim of infallibility is ALREADY a tool for man's self justification.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hell is as an important aspect of the Christian faith as Jesus' resurrection.
Right. Christianity would be rather incomplete without the inclusion of a pagan Norse afterlife term. Or without the bias of the Damnationist's Bible translations.

Hell. Because it's the right thing to do with countless billions of souls.
 
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Saint Steven

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The problem is, when you find out that Hell is a man made doctrine, and you use that as licence to sin. If you do that, you were never really a follower of Christ anyway. I've even heard some people say "if there is no such thing as hell, why bother being a Christian" Well, that tells you what that person's reason is for "following Christ"
Just to be clear, Universalists don't deny that there is corrective measures applied in the afterlife to bring every knee to bow and every tongue to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Is a person led by the Spirit born again?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
 
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ChicanaRose

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1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Light of the East said:
Kindly tell me how burning someone forever is love.
Right. Or what is the point in doing that?
To what end is endless torment?
Especially to those who have no idea why they are even there.
What is accomplished? What good can come of it?
Indeed.
As my dear friend Preston Eby so eloquently put it:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


God Will Have All Men Be Saved

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth.
It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind. It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard the name of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
This text is one of rare beauty. It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God. There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!
 
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Saint Steven

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Haven't posted in quite a long while here. The title of the thread caught my attention, because I recently been studying on this subject. The issue I have with ECT, is the following. We have a fallen nature from the outset. And because of this fallen nature we love darkness more than we do light. Sin has permeated every fiber of our being. Outside of having the holy spirit in us. Its flat out tough for some to see and be persuaded of the truth of Jesus Christ and the need for him as a savior. Because of this fallen nature. The Apostles were some hard headed people. They even struggled with Jesus Christ as the savior. And he performed miracle in plain site in the midst of them. They didn't believe until the resurrection. But now 2000 years later to say that when a person doesn't trust in Jesus is going to be annihilated or burned in ECT, because "you only have this one chance at this, given this life that you have?" It says in John 20:29 - Because thou hast seen, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet believed. Not saying this as an excuse for man, because God has revealed himself in more ways than one, Christ being the ultimate revealing. Just hard for me to fit in the Character and nature of God.
Hell is a hot topic. (pun intended)

I have never been a big a fan (as many here are) of a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. ECT, as you put it. (eternal conscious torment)

I have been devouring Universalist teachings in the hope of understanding an alternative view to Damnationism and Annihilationism. What I am finding is some very scholarly work by some brilliant contemporary theologians, as well as a treasure trove of historic writings on the subject that have been marginalized, or ignored in favor of the majority view.

It's been well worth the research. This is HUGE.
 
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Saint Steven

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John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
See red emphasis above for the reason God sent his Son into the world.
 
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Saint Steven

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Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath.
Right.
We put humans who do such things in maximum security prisons.
How could we accuse God of such a crime? Unthinkable.
 
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Saint Steven

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What do you think of this verse ?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10

.
It is human nature to applaud such a thing as if it is somehow justice. Forgetting that we are just as deserving. To enjoy the entertainment of the Coliseum while others are being eaten by lions.
 
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Saint Steven

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those who are in adam and are not in Christ.
Not yet… each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
 
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Anto9us

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If death and hell are thrown into a lake of fire, this is obviously metaphorical language - "death" cannot be physically thrown into anything.

As far as the lake literally making anyone wink out of existence - that concept is refuted by Revelation saying the devil is finally thrown in there where the beast and false prophet ARE

meaning beast and fp have consciously been in there 1000 years, but again, it's METAPHORICAL language
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Not yet… each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

nowhere in that verse does it say everyone is or will be in Christ.

it says, first Christ who is the firstfruits and then those who belong to Christ, which does not include every single person.
 
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eleos1954

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Pity. Seems such a waste.
Remind me, what was the point of all this?

From the original OP

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
 
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Saint Steven

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If death and hell are thrown into a lake of fire, this is obviously metaphorical language - "death" cannot be physically thrown into anything.

As far as the lake literally making anyone wink out of existence - that concept is refuted by Revelation saying the devil is finally thrown in there where the beast and false prophet ARE

meaning beast and fp have consciously been in there 1000 years, but again, it's METAPHORICAL language
I have always taken those (death and hell) to be the names of two demons. The last to go. One of whom is likely the source of the "hell" doctrine. Oh the irony.
 
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Saint Steven

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nowhere in that verse does it say everyone is or will be in Christ.

it says, first Christ who is the firstfruits and then those who belong to Christ, which does not include every single person.
Well, it doesn't say all are in Adam either, does it?
It designates everyone as "all". In Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive.
Are we missing anyone?
Verse 23 is a breakdown of the "all" who will be made alive.
Christ first, the first fruits, then those who belong to him (all who remain).

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
 
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Der Alte

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<OT>Der Alter, you are blessed to be retired but I hope your memory is not faltering because every time you initially reply to me, you cut and paste this list you keep handy as your initial response and we go from there with the same result each and every time regarding this subject. We always end up disagreeing and plow no new ground each time so I'm quite familiar with your position and responses as you may be with mine since we have extensive back & forth. Thus I'm not interested in discussing with you since it's just a rehash of our previous engagements. However, it you want to choose a single verse/passage which you think best represents your view from your list, I will respond in kind since hopefully it won't take much of my time and we don't spend all our time (although you're retired) on the merry-go-round ride.<OT>
.....Faulty memory has nothing to do with my response. As long as people keep posting posts like your I will continue to address them.
.....As I said I have been active at this forum for 2 decades. I started ca. '98 while I working working for my uncle in Korea and I realized early on that hard core adherents to certain heterodox groups are almost impossible to reach. So, while I am responding to particular individuals, I am also speaking to people who are undecided thinking about leaving or joining such a group.
.....Therefore when someone one posts something I think is not scriptural, whether for the first time or the umpteenth time, I will keep on posting rebuttals.
As for one verse, here are 2 verses back to back spoken by Jesus.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
 
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