Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

[Saint Steven]

From the original OP

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

I meant the point of creating a world with billions of people only to save a handful.
Or worse, to put the remainder in ECT in the LOF.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Pity. Seems such a waste.
Remind me, what was the point of all this?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Well, it doesn't say all are in Adam either, does it?

romans 3:9-18

Are we missing anyone?

yeah, the ones who arent in Christ

verse 22 of romans 15 should be read like this:

all who are in adam will die. all who are in Christ will live.

there's a reason why Jesus told us we must be born again.

 

[Saint Steven]

romans 3:9-18


yeah, the ones who arent in Christ

verse 22 of romans 15 should be read like this:

all who are in adam will die. all who are in Christ will live.

there's a reason why Jesus told us we must be born again.

Rom.3:9-18 says nothing about "those who are in Adam".
And that may be the way you WANT Rom.15:22 to read, but it's not how it DOES read.

Do you:
1) hope that Universalism is right and want to learn more about it, or...
2) not believe in Universalism and hope to prove it wrong?

Is a forever burning hell critical to your belief system? If so, why?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Rom.3:9-18 says nothing about "those who are in Adam".

…..yeah

before you try to posit any sort of doctrinal belief, you're gonna need to learn basic exegesis and hermeneutics methods.

anyway, good luck with your new religion.

 

[eleos1954]

I meant the point of creating a world with billions of people only to save a handful.
Or worse, to put the remainder in ECT in the LOF.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Pity. Seems such a waste.
Remind me, what was the point of all this?

Love and freewill. You can't have true love without freewill. You can't force someone to love someone. God knows this .. we know this.

Without freewill, we would be nothing more than robots, and not a true loving relationship.

ECT (eternal conscious torment) in LOF (lake of fire) is not so ...

 

[Saint Steven]

before you try to posit any sort of doctrinal belief, you're gonna need to learn basic exegesis and hermeneutics methods.

anyway, good luck with your new religion.

Seriously?

How about a demonstration of your superior "exegesis and hermeneutics methods" by showing us what Rom.3:9-18 says about "those who are in Adam"? Good luck with your old religion.

 

[Oldmantook]

<OT>Der Alter, you are blessed to be retired but I hope your memory is not faltering because every time you initially reply to me, you cut and paste this list you keep handy as your initial response and we go from there with the same result each and every time regarding this subject. We always end up disagreeing and plow no new ground each time so I'm quite familiar with your position and responses as you may be with mine since we have extensive back & forth. Thus I'm not interested in discussing with you since it's just a rehash of our previous engagements. However, it you want to choose a single verse/passage which you think best represents your view from your list, I will respond in kind since hopefully it won't take much of my time and we don't spend all our time (although you're retired) on the merry-go-round ride.<OT>
.....Faulty memory has nothing to do with my response. As long as people keep posting posts like your I will continue to address them.
.....As I said I have been active at this forum for 2 decades. I started ca. '98 while I working working for my uncle in Korea and I realized early on that hard core adherents to certain heterodox groups are almost impossible to reach. So, while I am responding to particular individuals, I am also speaking to people who are undecided thinking about leaving or joining such a group.
.....Therefore when someone one posts something I think is not scriptural, whether for the first time or the umpteenth time, I will keep on posting rebuttals.
As for one verse, here are 2 verses back to back spoken by Jesus.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

You are certainly free to respond but cutting and pasting your favorite verse list regarding this subject repeatedly is unconvincing (to me) as we have debated some of those passages, always resulting in disagreement as to their meaning.
Nonetheless regarding Jn 3:15-16. Correct me but if I understand your argument, you claim that since believers can perish in a finite period, then aionion must refer to eternal life.
However, one's possession of eternal life has nothing to do the nature of eternal life in and of itself. Eternal life goes on being eternal irrespective of whether one possesses it or not. The basis of your claim is that believers can never perish in an infinite period, thus aionion must mean everlasting. I would argue that believers can also perish in an infinite period as well.
Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul warned the brethren that if they live a lifestyle of fleshly living, they will die. The word "die" in this verse cannot refer to physical death because every single person dies physically no matter what kind of lifestyle they lived. Thus Paul's warning of chronic, unrepentant sin applies to spiritual death which means to perish in an infinite period.

 

[Saint Steven]

Love and freewill. You can't have true love without freewill. You can't force someone to love someone. God knows this .. we know this.

Without freewill, we would be nothing more than robots, and not a true loving relationship.

ECT (eternal conscious torment) in LOF (lake of fire) is not so ...

Evangelicalism says we have the free will to choose between belief in Christ, or eternity in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. That sounds more like a hostage situation than a free will choice.

Basically putting a gun to your victim's head while screaming your demands. What they do has little to do with a free will choice. They will do what you say, or they will be dead.

Sounds more like The Godfather than God the Father.

 

[eleos1954]

Evangelicalism says we have the free will to choose between belief in Christ, or eternity in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. That sounds more like a hostage situation than a free will choice.

Basically putting a gun to your victim's head while screaming your demands. What they do has little to do with a free will choice. They will do what you say, or they will be dead.

well ... if "Evangelicalism" is teaching eternal torturing in hell (and some are) ... then they are in error with what the bible teaches.

 

[Saint Steven]

well ... if "Evangelicalism" is teaching eternal torturing in hell (and some are) ... then they are in error with what the bible teaches.

Any Evangelical worth their salt could give you chapter and verse to prove their doctrine.
Have you met yeshuaslavejeff?

The Bible is actually part of the problem.
It was translated under the control of the Damnationists.
Fortunately we have translations like Young's Literal translation and Rotherham Emphasized Bible. Look at these comparisons with the NIV.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

 

[eleos1954]

Any Evangelical worth their salt could give you chapter and verse to prove their doctrine.
Have you met yeshuaslavejeff?

The Bible is actually part of the problem.
It was translated under the control of the Damnationists.
Fortunately we have translations like Young's Literal translation and Rotherham Emphasized Bible. Look at these comparisons with the NIV.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

I study the Lord word myself ... and have been doing so for quite some time ... and have determined eternal torment is not so.

What kind of a loving God torments people for eternity? A question often put forth by unbelievers ... they intuitively see this does not make sense ... and they are correct.

This teaching has prevented more people from coming to the Lord than anything I know of.

yes, know of this person yeshuaslavejeff

 

[ilovejcsog]

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

delete

 

[ilovejcsog]

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

Can you afford to only believe part of the bible? Discarding some, accepting others?

 

[Saint Steven]

Can you afford to only believe part of the bible? Discarding some, accepting others?

The Bible is actually part of the problem.

It was translated under the control of the Damnationists.
Fortunately we have translations like Young's Literal translation and Rotherham Emphasized Bible. Look at these comparisons with the NIV.
These are all from the Bible. Nothing discarded.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

 

[martymonster]

Just to be clear, Universalists don't deny that there is corrective measures applied in the afterlife to bring every knee to bow and every tongue to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Is a person led by the Spirit born again?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, for the very vast majority of humanity (the many) conversion happens in the lake of fire, but I'm talking about this life. A lot of people turn a lack of eternal punishment, into greasy grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, for the very vast majority of humanity (the many) conversion happens in the lake of fire, but I'm talking about this life. A lot of people turn a lack of eternal punishment, into greasy grace.

I don't know who that "lot of people" is. That "greasy grace" is certainly not the Universalist position.

 

[ilovejcsog]

God gives us the choice of Him or hell. We make that choice of hell, lake of fire or forever torture, whatever. It is our choice not Gods. It is as simple as that for me.

 

[martymonster]

I don't know who that "lot of people" is. That "greasy grace" is certainly not the Universalist position.

Well, universalism only means that everyone will be saved. That's the only real position there is. It's not like being a Catholic or a Baptist, per se.

I guess what I'm saying is, we have to beyond the sincere milk of the word, and go on to maturity, as Paul puts it. There will be no babes judging the world in the Lake of fire.

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible is actually part of the problem.
It was translated under the control of the Damnationists.
Fortunately we have translations like Young's Literal translation and Rotherham Emphasized Bible. Look at these comparisons with the NIV.
These are all from the Bible. Nothing discarded....

.....I have never had an answer to this question. What makes a translation "literal." How many credit hours of Greek or Hebrew do you have? Can you parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb. Do you even know what that means?
.....My observation here and other forums these "literal translations" are considered literal simply because they support the assumptions/presuppositions of universalists.
.....In this thread I have posted list of 22 verses which show conclusively that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal and nobody has disproved that.

 

[Saint Steven]

God gives us the choice of Him or hell. We make that choice of hell, lake of fire or forever torture, whatever. It is our choice not Gods. It is as simple as that for me.

Billions have never even heard the name of Christ. For what crime do you sentence them to eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire with no hope of escape?