All Israel Will Be Saved ?

[Ligurian]

Romans 9
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth thoroughly and decisively.”


I have always struggled in understanding what is being said here, would love to get the thoughts . In Romans 11 verse 26 it clearly says all of Israel will be saved. yet earlier in that same chapter is clearly shows Paul to be suggesting only some of them will we saved.

After going back in the book of Romans it seems, just because you are a Jew does not mean you belong to Israel ?? I get this from Romans 9 verse 6 and 7.

It seems to me in Verse 8 suggesting that just because you are Jewish does not make you part of God's Children. It also seems That Israel is considered God's children. It seems that in verse 8 all are God's Children are that which have received the promise form Abraham. So maybe just maybe all those in Christ, Jew or Greek are part of the spiritual Israel referred to as God Children?? This way it make sense when it says all of Israel will be saved in Romans 11 verse 26. Other wise it seems to be a conflict when it says all Israel will be saved, in Romans 11-26, and then in Romans 9-27 says only a remnant will be saved.

Aren't these verses about the captivity? hmmm... maybe not. Are the Assyrians the beast?

Esaias Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israel shall no more join themselves with, and the saved of Jacob shall no more trust in, them that injured them; but they shall trust in the Holy God of Israel, in truth. 21 And the remnant of Jacob shall trust on the mighty God. 22 And though the people of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be saved. 23 He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because the Lord will make a short work in all the world. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, Be not afraid, My people who dwell in Sion, of the Assyrians because he shall smite thee with a rod; for I am bringing a stroke upon thee that thou mayest see the way of Egypt. 25 For yet a little while and the indignation shall cease, but My wrath shall be against their council. 26 And God will stir up enemies against them, according to the stroke of Madiam in the place of affliction, and his wrath shall be by the way of the sea, even to the way that leads to Egypt. 27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his yoke shall be taken away from thy shoulder and his fear from thee, and the yoke shall be destroyed from off your shoulders.LXX

Israel is a name given by God to the 12 tribes of Jacob:

Genesis 32:24-30 28 And He said to him, Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name; for thou hast prevailed with God and shalt be mighty with men.LXX

This is still future-tense, because here are the blind who can see:

Esaias Isaiah 43:1 And now thus saith the Lord God that made thee, O Jacob; and formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee; I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine. 2 And if thou pass through water, I am with thee and the rivers shall not overflow thee. And if thou go through fire, thou shalt not be burned, the flame shall not burn thee. 3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, that saves thee: I have made Egypt and Ethiopia thy ransom and given Soene for thee. 4 Since thou becamest precious in My sight, thou hast become glorious, and I have loved thee. And I will give men for thee, and princes for thy life. 5 Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east and will gather thee from the west. 6 I will say to the north, Bring; and to the south, Keep not back. Bring my sons from the land afar off, and My daughters from the ends of the earth, 7 even all who are called by My name. For I have prepared him for My glory, and I have formed him and have made him. 8 And I have brought forth the blind people: for their eyes are alike blind, and they that have ears are deaf.LXX

Esaias Isaiah 6:8-13 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And He said, Go, and say to this people, 9 Ye shall hear indeed but ye shall not understand, and ye shall see indeed but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them. 11 And I said, How long, O Lord? And He said, Until cities be deserted by reason of their not being inhabited and the houses by reason of there being no men, and the land shall be left desolate. 12 And after this God shall remove the men far off, and they that are left upon the land shall be multiplied. 13 And yet there shall be a tenth upon it and again it shall be for a spoil, as a turpentine tree and as an acorn when it falls out of its husk.LXX

Half of this was quoted in Matthew 13:13-17... so it hadn't happened yet. The blind were apparently the multitudes, as opposed to the Disciples (pupils) who were blessed in that chapter because they could see.

 

[BABerean2]

Israel is a name given by God to the 12 tribes of Jacob:

Genesis 32:24-30 28 And He said to him, Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name; for thou hast prevailed with God and shalt be mighty with men.LXX

This is still future-tense, because here are the blind who can see:

Many of the arguments over "Israel" could be avoided with one verse.


Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Nobody today can be a part of "Israel" without a relationship with the "King of Israel" who is the "Son of God" in the verse above.

The following scriptures prove this point, and are often ignored by many who now idolize those that reject God's Son.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Nobody can now have a relationship with God without a relationship with God's son.

Many modern Christians do not know the difference between the faithful "remnant" of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, and the Baal worshippers that worship another god.

Who are those in Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, and Revelation 11:8?
(See Romans 2:28-29 if you do not understand this question.)
.

 

[Clare73]

Many of the arguments over "Israel" could be avoided with one verse.
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Nobody today can be a part of "Israel" without a relationship with the "King of Israel" who is the "Son of God" in the verse above.

The following scriptures prove this point, and are often
ignored by many who now idolize those that reject God's Son.

Keen observation. . .

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Nobody can now have a relationship with God without a relationship with God's son.

Many modern Christians do not know the difference between the faithful "remnant" of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, and the Baal worshippers that worship another god.

Who are those in Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, and Revelation 11:8?
(See Romans 2:28-29 if you do not understand this question.)
.

 

[Ligurian]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. [...]
Who are those in Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, and Revelation 11:8?

Same people... except for Revelation 11:8.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My Father. John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Matthew 15:12-14 Let them alone: They be blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed, but ye seek to kill Me because My word hath no place in you.KJV

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem which cometh down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: sealed an hundred forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.KJV

 

[BABerean2]

of all the tribes of the children of Israel.KJV

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below.


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


.

 

[Ligurian]

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
.

But James was a literalist: he meant what he said. There are only three places where the word diaspora is found... John 7:35, 1 Peter 1:1, James 1:1... and it's all about the Israelites... physically the offspring of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, literally 12 tribes of Israel.

These are the same tribes to be sealed in Revelation 7:4-8. The word tribes only shows up when the Israelites are being named.

phule = from phuo; an offshoot, i.e. race or clan:--kindred, tribe.

 

[BABerean2]

But James was a literalist: he meant what he said. There are only three places where the word diaspora is found... John 7:35, 1 Peter 1:1, James 1:1... and it's all about the Israelites... physically the offspring of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, literally 12 tribes of Israel.

These are the same tribes to be sealed in Revelation 7:4-8. The word tribes only shows up when the Israelites are being named.

phule = from phuo; an offshoot, i.e. race or clan:--kindred, tribe.

What happened to the Northern tribes hundreds of years before the time of Christ?
They were taken into captivity and their DNA was mixed with that of the Gentiles in the same way the Samaritans were produced.

Therefore, at the time James wrote his letter the Northern tribes no longer existed as pure bloodlines.
The same is true today.
Almost every person who comes from European or Asian ancestry today is a direct descendant of Abraham, and many millions are direct descendants of Jacob.

Irish people take a DNA test:

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.
Paul gave a warning about using genealogies in our faith in Titus 3:9.
Paul had to correct Peter for treating the Jews differently than the Gentiles in the Book of Galatians.
Why are many today making the same mistake?

.

 

[Ligurian]

What happened to the Northern tribes hundreds of years before the time of Christ?
They were taken into captivity and their DNA was mixed with that of the Gentiles in the same way the Samaritans were produced.

Therefore, at the time James wrote his letter the Northern tribes no longer existed as pure bloodlines.
The same is true today.
Almost every person who comes from European or Asian ancestry today is a direct descendant of Abraham, and many millions are direct descendants of Jacob.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.
Paul gave a warning about using genealogies in our faith in Titus 3:9.
Paul had to correct Peter for treating the Jews differently than the Gentiles in the Book of Galatians.
Why are many today making the same mistake?

.

(1) well, I happen to believe you're correct... with some modifications. The Assyrian records, by numbers alone, show us that peasants were left on the land.
Peter was of the ten tribes:
1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.KJV
Hosea 1:6-9 And she conceived again, and bore a daughter. And He said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, but will surely set myself in array against them. 7 But I will have mercy on the house of Juda, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them with bow, nor with sword, nor by war, nor by horses, nor by horsemen. 8 And she weaned Unpitied; and she conceived again, and bore a son. 9 And He said, Call his name, Not my people: for ye are not my people, and I am not your God.LXX
This is the divided kingdom when, the house of Juda still had mercy, before the Babylonian captivity... so Peter is talking directly to the House of Israel in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1).
Which parts of these lands were Israelite... and where did they go? Dan stayed on his ships... and Dan was mostly a nation of women, at one time. The whole Mediterranean would have been their homeland by the time of Jesus. And this is exactly what the records show. Mediterranean people in Mediterranean lands. The Arabs are called Mediterranean-type by Field of the Field Museum.

(2) James is talking to at least the same people to whom Peter wrote. All of the prophets talk about the tribes being scattered among the nations, back in the day: do they even know they're Israelites, by now... if their fathers had turned their back on God? (My sheep know My voice, says Jesus)
Revelation 7:4-8 says "the children of Israel" (children: phule = an offshoot, race or clan, kindred, tribe... genetic stock), and tells us which tribes are left... by numbering the males (Revelation 14:1-4). I suspect that's why Dan is missing in that list... it'd be hard to find a prophet who didn't discuss the outcome of Solomon's harem--and Juda is still listed--so Ephraim must either be all women, like Danites, or just plain gone.

(3) Titus 3:9 versus Philippians 3:5... what do you make of that?
Different people, same names. Example:
Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, by the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14... and Paul doesn't know the name Simon... in Galatians, he used both Cephas and Peter within the span of 3 verses.
Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Matthew 10:2-7 Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matthew 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear His cross.
Acts 4:6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
Acts 12:25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled [their] ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.KJV

 

[BABerean2]

Titus 3:9 versus Philippians 3:5... what do you make of that?

We can find genealogies of people in the New Testament, but the only one that matters is found in the verse below, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


Paul warned us twice below not to use other genealogies in our faith.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.

 

[rwb]

There are two Israel's.

All Israel being saved refers to 'Spiritual Israel"

This is the remnant of Jews that will be saved.

I also see 'two' Israel's. However, the manner in which "all Israel" is saved according to Paul is by having believing Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree with the natural, and faithful Jew. Since Israel then will consist of both Jew and Gentile believers it would be a mistake to say they are the "remnant of Jews that will be saved".

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Therefore "all Israel" to be saved is not an ethnic people, but a spiritual people, "Israel of God" that is neither Jew nor Gentile, but born again believers from all nations of the earth.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I also see 'two' Israel's. However, the manner in which "all Israel" is saved according to Paul is by having believing Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree with the natural, and faithful Jew. Since Israel then will consist of both Jew and Gentile believers it would be a mistake to say they are the "remnant of Jews that will be saved".

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Therefore "all Israel" to be saved is not an ethnic people, but a spiritual people, "Israel of God" that is neither Jew nor Gentile, but born again believers from all nations of the earth.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I am not an end times expert but my opinion is that when the time of the Gentiles closes the time of the Jews will resume so the remaining souls among Jews to be saved will be born and come to Salvation. In that sense we have a remnant and also all Israel will be saved.

But hey - who knows. We will have to wait and see.

What ever happens will be beautiful and we will all rejoice.

 

[rwb]

I am not an end times expert but my opinion is that when the time of the Gentiles closes the time of the Jews will resume so the remaining souls among Jews to be saved will be born and come to Salvation. In that sense we have a remnant and also all Israel will be saved.

But hey - who knows. We will have to wait and see.

What ever happens will be beautiful and we will all rejoice.

Believe me none of us are end times experts, no matter what our credentials might say.

I feel it more important than you seem to realize. Consider for a moment, what if you are wrong? Would you not be minimizing the sufficiency and absolute dependence on Christ and His cross and resurrection to unbelieving Jews? Are you sure the remnant of Jews are not the Old Covenant faithful?

The Spiritual Kingdom of Heaven will be complete when the last Gentile becomes saved. There will be no more time for unsaved Jews to be born again.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Believe me none of us are end times experts, no matter what our credentials might say.

I feel it more important than you seem to realize. Consider for a moment, what if you are wrong? Would you not be minimizing the sufficiency and absolute dependence on Christ and His cross and resurrection to unbelieving Jews? Are you sure the remnant of Jews are not the Old Covenant faithful?

The Spiritual Kingdom of Heaven will be complete when the last Gentile becomes saved. There will be no more time for unsaved Jews to be born again.

That is not my hunch but who knows....

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think needing to be right about end times is overblown.

More important is to be found doing His will when He arrives.

 

[rwb]

I think needing to be right about end times is overblown.

More important is to be found doing His will when He arrives.

Yes, this is true, and I agree. But it is also important to speak the truth in love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Of course but the end times arena is a mess and probably 80% of the claims are wrong.

I have been told by Him to stay clear of it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I read your concern again and thought more about it.

I didn't state that any Jew finds salvation except through the cross.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the Pierced One
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

 

[rwb]

I read your concern again and thought more about it.

I didn't state that any Jew finds salvation except through the cross.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the Pierced One
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

I understand what you mean Carl, and I didn't mean to imply that you were saying there is any other way but Christ to be saved. What I mean by speaking the truth in love is giving the same message to unbelieving Jews as John the Baptist did. Repent, turn to Christ and be saved. You never hear John or Christ say anything about the natural unsaved Jews having more time to be saved after the return of Christ. It just is not found anywhere in Scripture. When we speak as though there will still be time on this earth to turn to Christ for salvation after He has come again, we are giving an unbiblical, and unloving message to the Jews. Today is the day for salvation. Whosoever will be saved, will be saved before Christ comes again, or there is no hope for anyone, including Jews. Blessings to you also

 

[Carl Emerson]

I understand what you mean Carl, and I didn't mean to imply that you were saying there is any other way but Christ to be saved. What I mean by speaking the truth in love is giving the same message to unbelieving Jews as John the Baptist did. Repent, turn to Christ and be saved. You never hear John or Christ say anything about the natural unsaved Jews having more time to be saved after the return of Christ. It just is not found anywhere in Scripture. When we speak as though there will still be time on this earth to turn to Christ for salvation after He has come again, we are giving an unbiblical, and unloving message to the Jews. Today is the day for salvation. Whosoever will be saved, will be saved before Christ comes again, or there is no hope for anyone, including Jews. Blessings to you also

Yes I am not speaking of an event after the return of Christ.

I am no expert but there is a strong possibility that the Jews will be expelled from the land and return again in repentance before Christ returns.

 

[Guojing]

When we speak as though there will still be time on this earth to turn to Christ for salvation after He has come again, we are giving an unbiblical, and unloving message to the Jews. Today is the day for salvation. Whosoever will be saved, will be saved before Christ comes again, or there is no hope for anyone, including Jews. Blessings to you also

You are an amillennialist?