All Israel is saved

Soar Like and Eagle

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I do have to admit that your thinking repulses me. For you are blaming God for all we suffer instead of placing the responsibility with the sinner where it belongs and in so doing you stumble many away from ever desiring to have faith in a God they, by way of accepting such views as yours, see as an evil tyrant. Why do you think men debate whether the OT God is the true God? Do you not pay any attention to the talk of people around you in the world?

Wise young Elihu told Job, "Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity." Job 34:10

Abraham's faith in the goodness of God was shown, here:
Genesis 18:23-25
23 "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Yet you accuse God of not only being able to choose to destroy the wicked and the righteous together, but of all evil which has befallen man. And I have to admit that makes your way of thinking curdle my stomach. For there can be no greater example of evil thinking than that. How can you not see that?

This shows me how little you do think. For you should have no problem knowing that evil is not a real or tangible thing. Evil is a concept. It is not something one creates like a tangible object but it is the consequences of ones actions as in "that person has created havoc."

And so i find it deplorable when anyone fails to see that they their own self by their choices which govern their own conduct either do good or create evil. Evil is a concept describing the quality of our choice of actions. The word in Hebrew or Greek is predominantly used as a verb just as is love (agapao) denoting an action which resists. And so God in the name of justice can use an appropriate evil to resist the inappropriate evil by man, such as at Isaiah 45:7 where the Hebrew word "ra'" is better translated as "calamity." And you would know that if you paid attention to the context where it shows that he is telling the children of Israel that after having allowed them their day to be darkened and filled with the evil of distress by letting them go into captivity to Babylon that He was now going to take action to restore the light of day to them and the goodness of peace instead of the evil of calamity that He let befall them.

Evil is a by-product of our choice of actions. We or God creates it only by how we choose to act. And when God chooses to use evil as his manner of action he always does so righteously in the cause of justice.

Please get this matter straight in you mind so that others do not run off following your manner of thinking and end up hating God out of ignorance.

I would not want to be your child if you as a father had no faith in me. Love does not foresee that we are going to choose to do evil. Love trusts and by trusting teaches us to trust. If God suspiciously looked into man's future that way he would then have set an example that when we followed it would surely lead to hating one another even before we actually did wrong to one another. Your manner of thinking is unreasonable and dangerous.

Christ Jesus lived and died, not just to provide a ransom for our sins, but also to vindicate his Father's name in this earth by showing us the goodness of God. And your thinking when you teach others to think that way works against the very meaning of the life of Christ who lived and died to vindicate his Father's name.

This is really beside the point, but I know you are using it to claim that God had to know ahead of time every detail that would ever be. Well, I know you are wrong. Start a thread on Omniscience and I will present the Scriptural proofs. That happens to be a subject I have spent more time analyzing than many other subjects. And I understand how and why you think as you do, for I used to also. But I now understand.

So you think that God is a control freak? If so you really do not know God.


I am sorry if any of this sounds offensive, but few subjects get my dander up like this one. It hurts me to see people blaming God rather than accepting to place responsibility where it belongs.
I am not offended. I get offended when people ignore my post and when I ask them a spiritual question that does not fit their way of seeing things they are not spiritually strong enough to confront the question. That is just spiritual immaturity the perfect definition of a goat believer.

I see God as a God of love not this evil monster you some how have gathered from my post? I see God with a plan and a purpose for all people not just a few. I do not see God as angry and vengeful as religion sees Him but this angry is for a moment. You seem to have a problem with my belief that God is totally sovereign over all thing especially evil but for him not to be would mean there is a greater god more powerful over evil and God is helpless to control this.

You said" I accuse God of not only being able to choose to destroy the wicked and the righteous together" ? i do not believe this but I do believe we will all go thought God's spiritual fire not to destroy but to change.

In reference to the word "ra" amen. Evil and calamity mean the same thing.
 
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Buzz_B

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I am not offended. I get offended when people ignore my post and when I ask them a spiritual question that does not fit their way of seeing things they are not spiritually strong enough to confront the question. That is just spiritual immaturity the perfect definition of a goat believer.

I see God as a God of love not this evil monster you some how have gathered from my post? I see God with a plan and a purpose for all people not just a few. I do not see God as angry and vengeful as religion sees Him but this angry is for a moment. You seem to have a problem with my belief that God is totally sovereign over all thing especially evil but for him not to be would mean there is a greater god more powerful over evil and God is helpless to control this.

You said" I accuse God of not only being able to choose to destroy the wicked and the righteous together" ? i do not believe this but I do believe we will all go thought God's spiritual fire not to destroy but to change.

In reference to the word "ra" amen. Evil and calamity mean the same thing.
I agree. I was hesitant to let go and tell you the full scope of my thoughts as I knew this subject disturbs my spirit. After all I have been through in life it deeply hurts me to hear anyone say anything that I know many will use to view the only truly loving Father I have ever known as the tyrant so many do view him as. And it is good that you have not let your way of seeing things affect you so that you, like those who see the OT God as a tyrant, are unable to see the righteousness in the things the OT describes God as doing. For his righteousness is always there to be found if one does not start hastily judging him before thoroughly investigating all of the facts and thinking things through.

I hate the man I used to be in my ignorance. That is a righteous use of hate. It keeps me firmly set upon letting that man die the death he deserves that I can be raised anew through the righteous spirit which Christ bears of God.

We are told, "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Romans 12:9 "Abhorrence" is hate to the max degree. And that is what it takes to conquer evil and stomp it out under Christ's feet as we live Christ rather than that old man we used to be.

We are to work at, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" 2 Corinthians 10:5 There is no exception made for where or who those thoughts which fight against Christ come from. We do not hate the person but we do abhor the thoughts which work against the righteousness we find in Christ; a righteousness which is of God his Father and which always seeks to elevate the name of God our Father to the highest degree where it belongs in all of God's created realms.

And it seems that you understand that and so you know not to take things personally as a child does. That is encouraging.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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I agree. I was hesitant to let go and tell you the full scope of my thoughts as I knew this subject disturbs my spirit. After all I have been through in life it deeply hurts me to hear anyone say anything that I know many will use to view the only truly loving Father I have ever known as the tyrant so many do view him as. And it is good that you have not let your way of seeing things affect you so that you, like those who see the OT God as a tyrant, are unable to see the righteousness in the things the OT describes God as doing. For his righteousness is always there to be found if one does not start hastily judging him before thoroughly investigating all of the facts and thinking things through.

I hate the man I used to be in my ignorance. That is a righteous use of hate. It keeps me firmly set upon letting that man die the death he deserves that I can be raised anew through the righteous spirit which Christ bears of God.

We are told, "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Romans 12:9 "Abhorrence" is hate to the max degree. And that is what it takes to conquer evil and stomp it out under Christ's feet as we live Christ rather than that old man we used to be.

We are to work at, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" 2 Corinthians 10:5 There is no exception made for where or who those thoughts which fight against Christ come from. We do not hate the person but we do abhor the thoughts which work against the righteousness we find in Christ; a righteousness which is of God his Father and which always seeks to elevate the name of God our Father to the highest degree where it belongs in all of God's created realms.

And it seems that you understand that and so you know not to take things personally as a child does. That is encouraging.
I understand I view things differently but I have spent a lifetime seeking truth where truth has led me and it has been an amazing walk. There are plenty of people just like me and yes none of are part of the camp of mainstream Christianity. Babylon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord so yes God uses all people for His purpose.
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. I meant to say that I have grandkids and not great grand kids.

2. If I knew raising kids paralleld
with teaching kids in a Christian home I would have done differently among some other things.

3. The Bible says to be like the Bereans to see if they say the truth.
I have studied enough to know what to listen to and what not to.

4. V 16 talks about the wise being cautious of what they do.
Fool rush in like the Elvis song goes and rush in recklessly.
Verse 17 seems to mimic that cause the fool going to folly is quick tempered and lacks self control.
The schemers are hated for they do are premeditated and destined to do harm.
I’ve gotta go but that is off the top of my head. Jerry kelso
Here are the only correct translations I have found in the more common Bibles used today:

Proverbs 14:17 “The one who is quick to anger acts foolishly, But the man who thinks things out* is hated.” (NWT) *Or “the man of thinking abilities.”

Proverbs 14:17 “He who is quickly angry will do what is foolish, but the man of good sense will have quiet.” (BBE)

Proverbs 14:17 “An unpatient man handleth foolishly, but he that is well advised, doth other ways.” (Tyndale)

The Hebrew does not support the way Bibles like the KJV render it. Unfortunately it is left up to the wisdom of the Hebrew reader to understand the negative verses positive contrasts which are presented in every verse from verse 14 thru verse 25. That is an old poetic manner of the ancient Hebrew but even our modern Jewish Bibles fail to consider it. But then the Jews relegated their gnosis (knowledge) born of their own wisdom to a place of reverence as if their knowledge was God. That is why Paul said at Romans 10:3 said, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

At Romans 10:2 Paul said, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." There the word for "knowledge is not "gnosis" but "epignosis", a deeper more accurate form of knowledge.

IOW's, we cannot assume that just because the Jewish Bibles translated Proverbs 14:17 the way they did that they had good reason for doing so. It was unthinkable to them who practically worshiped their own knowledge that anyone could hate them for having thinking ability. And so they broke the mold of the poetic form used in that verse instead of translating in accord to the form used in verses 14-25. The Hebrew word actually does just refer to "thinking ability." And it is not always used in a bad way in the Scriptures.

What we don't know can cause us to write songs like the one you mentioned. :)

I suppose I should tell you my main point. We have to learn to do our own thinking as God designed us to be able to do. We err to trust too heavily in men, even Scholars. We can benefit from them if we do not take their every word as gospel.
 
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Buzz_B

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I understand I view things differently but I have spent a lifetime seeking truth where truth has led me and it has been an amazing walk. There are plenty of people just like me and yes none of are part of the camp of mainstream Christianity. Babylon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord so yes God uses all people for His purpose.
There is one thing for certain and that it has not been easy. :)

We most certainly are going to remember. After all, who would dare forget and have to go through all this again (or for nothing).
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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There is one thing for certain and that it has not been easy. :)

We most certainly are going to remember. After all, who would dare forget and have to go through all this again (or for nothing).
Most people have the idea that tribulation means wrath, judgment, torment and vengeance. The Greek word is thlipsis, meaning "pressure." It is derived from the word thilbo that means "to crowd, to be pressed upon in a narrow place. Pressures are used to PRESS US INTO THE KINGDOM! Trying to pray ourselves out of these distresses only defeats their very purpose. But when, in the midst of our pressures, we pray that God would bring us deeper into Himself, then these very straits have served their purpose — for they have channeled us into Him."


Tribulation simply means "pressure," and great tribulation mean "great pressure." Everybody, on some level, experiences pressure in this world. Pressure, in modern medical terms, is called external stress factors. Physicians now recognize the great importance of internal stress, caused by reaction to external stress factors, in causing and aggravating a host of diseases. In this world all of us are subjected to a host of stresses — just as Jesus said! Examination of the blood of a person experiencing internal stress will reveal the presence of abnormal toxic chemical compounds that are formed as a result of his emotions of frustration, resentment, anger, hate, anxiety, worry and fear — which result in a number of diseases. The cares of this world have turned many peoples lives into a pressure cooker. Not to speak of war, persecution, or martyrdom — just the strain of everyday living in our modern society is steadily growing worse because of financial problems, higher taxes, inflation, recession, joblessness, terrorism, the disturbing world situation, responsibilities, sickness, hospital bills, rebellion in the home, drugs, street gangs and a host of other conditions.

The distractions and pressures of "this life" are too numerous to mention, we are all faced with them every day, but when they so overwhelm us, so mar our lives with anxiety, stress, fatigue and distraction that we find ourselves so distressed and depressed that we are not able to gather ourselves together and walk in the joy, peace, and victory of the kingdom of God — then we have not discovered that HE THAT IS WITHIN US IS MIGHTY AND HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD!
 
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Buzz_B

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Most people have the idea that tribulation means wrath, judgment, torment and vengeance. The Greek word is thlipsis, meaning "pressure." It is derived from the word thilbo that means "to crowd, to be pressed upon in a narrow place. Pressures are used to PRESS US INTO THE KINGDOM! Trying to pray ourselves out of these distresses only defeats their very purpose. But when, in the midst of our pressures, we pray that God would bring us deeper into Himself, then these very straits have served their purpose — for they have channeled us into Him."


Tribulation simply means "pressure," and great tribulation mean "great pressure." Everybody, on some level, experiences pressure in this world. Pressure, in modern medical terms, is called external stress factors. Physicians now recognize the great importance of internal stress, caused by reaction to external stress factors, in causing and aggravating a host of diseases. In this world all of us are subjected to a host of stresses — just as Jesus said! Examination of the blood of a person experiencing internal stress will reveal the presence of abnormal toxic chemical compounds that are formed as a result of his emotions of frustration, resentment, anger, hate, anxiety, worry and fear — which result in a number of diseases. The cares of this world have turned many peoples lives into a pressure cooker. Not to speak of war, persecution, or martyrdom — just the strain of everyday living in our modern society is steadily growing worse because of financial problems, higher taxes, inflation, recession, joblessness, terrorism, the disturbing world situation, responsibilities, sickness, hospital bills, rebellion in the home, drugs, street gangs and a host of other conditions.

The distractions and pressures of "this life" are too numerous to mention, we are all faced with them every day, but when they so overwhelm us, so mar our lives with anxiety, stress, fatigue and distraction that we find ourselves so distressed and depressed that we are not able to gather ourselves together and walk in the joy, peace, and victory of the kingdom of God — then we have not discovered that HE THAT IS WITHIN US IS MIGHTY AND HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD!
About the only thing I would add to that is that we need to be wary that our rejoicing is not like that described at Luke 6:25. Sadly, for many it is. They rejoice rather than mourn in a right way as we are advised to do at Matthew 5:4. It is the rejoicing of ignorance, as the saying goes, 'Ignorance is bliss.'

There is a godly sadness we had better never lose while in this world. Ecclesiastes 7:3

John 16:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy."

We do not want to make the mistake of rejoicing about the wrong things or in rejoicing prematurely.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Edit: You may remember Revelation 4:6 “And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.”

And you may recall Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee."

To understand that sea of glass shows the serenity we experience in God's presence, think about sitting on a shore of a large pond of water in still winds and watching the sun go down across the water. So long as you are positioned opposite the side the sun is going down on, when the sun hits a certain angle in relation to the glassy surface of the still water, the surface begins sparkling like many jewels and the view is breathtaking and very calming to ones spirit. That does not mean we no longer know we are saddened by certain things or that we do not like certain things. It means that despite those things we can yet have peace. That peace Isaiah 26:3 speaks about. If you have never experienced what I described here I suggest you make a note to do so.

Now think about a room full of religious people full of smiles and laughter and rejoicing with attitudes like, "I am sure glad I am not like those heathen, Oh well, they are getting what they deserve." Or just plain not caring about those who are yet outside.

Do you get my point? Godly peace does not prohibit godly sadness, nor does godly sadness prevent godly peace. We truly do have strength to endure all things. The others are just running and hiding behind the illusions of their ignorant mind.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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About the only thing I would add to that is that we need to be wary that our rejoicing is not like that described at Luke 6:25. Sadly, for many it is. They rejoice rather than mourn in a right way as we are advised to do at Matthew 5:4. It is the rejoicing of ignorance, as the saying goes, 'Ignorance is bliss.'

There is a godly sadness we had better never lose while in this world. Ecclesiastes 7:3

John 16:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy."

We do not want to make the mistake of rejoicing about the wrong things or in rejoicing prematurely.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Edit: You may remember Revelation 4:6 “And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.”

And you may recall Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee."

To understand that sea of glass shows the serenity we experience in God's presence, think about sitting on a shore of a large pond of water in still winds and watching the sun go down across the water. So long as you are positioned opposite the side the sun is going down on, when the sun hits a certain angle in relation to the glassy surface of the still water, the surface begins sparkling like many jewels and the view is breathtaking and very calming to ones spirit. That does not mean we no longer know we are saddened by certain things or that we do not like certain things. It means that despite those things we can yet have peace. That peace Isaiah 26:3 speaks about. If you have never experienced what I described here I suggest you make a note to do so.

Now think about a room full of religious people full of smiles and laughter and rejoicing with attitudes like, "I am sure glad I am not like those heathen, Oh well, they are getting what they deserve." Or just plain not caring about those who are yet outside.

Do you get my point? Godly peace does not prohibit godly sadness, nor does godly sadness prevent godly peace. We truly do have strength to endure all things. The others are just running and hiding behind the illusions of their ignorant mind.
I don't think you know where I am coming from.
 
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Buzz_B

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I don't think you know where I am coming from.
Perhaps not, but I thought your last paragraph summed up pretty well.

The pressures of this world would not consume us if we have discovered that HE THAT IS WITHIN US IS MIGHTY AND HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD!

I understand the subtle hint you are giving me by what you said but to me it just does not matter. I have no problem ignoring that and just sharing what I know to be beneficial to you. So no problem there. I have Christ's shoulders to bear it with.

That particular verse of 1 John 4:4 (just as at 1 John 2:13-14) by the correct application of the Greek grammar indicates not so much the individual doing this but the oneness of godly spirit which gives strength to the brotherhood in Christ.

If you understood the Greek to the depth that I do you would be at least beginning to realize this is about us together more so than about us individually. When we think of it as applying individually we can benefit to a degree but it loses much of its power which is in and belongs to the body of Christ rather than to any one of us as a lone individual.

What happened is that sin turned us to a self centered nature where we began to think of ourselves as separate from one another. And by thinking of ourselves as separate from one another it becomes easier to hate one another and/or just exclude others. Whereas when we appreciate that there is only one flesh as Paul told us at 1 Cor 15:39 (Not "one kind of flesh" but "one flesh" for the words "kind of" are not in the Greek text of 1 Cor 15:39) and we therefore appreciate that we are all really and truly one body which was meant to operate by one godly spirit, then we have real power. The kind of power that Christian Psychologist Stephen Covey calls "synergistic."

Yes, when we properly understand the Greek grammar we learn that God is teaching us how to be synergistic in his power. He is not defeating that by appealing to us as individuals and you would know that if you really understood Greek grammar. So why do not so many other Greek Scholars teach the Bible like that then? Because they entered their education already having a belief and looking only to be able to better explain that belief. So they could not fully see to learn it all. That is why the majority of the schools to teach Greek sprung up around certain faiths. These schools taught in support of their own particular school of thought depending on what the religious affiliation was.

Belief is the most blinding force known to man.
 
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jerry kelso

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Here are the only correct translations I have found in the more common Bibles used today:

Proverbs 14:17 “The one who is quick to anger acts foolishly, But the man who thinks things out* is hated.” (NWT) *Or “the man of thinking abilities.”

Proverbs 14:17 “He who is quickly angry will do what is foolish, but the man of good sense will have quiet.” (BBE)

Proverbs 14:17 “An unpatient man handleth foolishly, but he that is well advised, doth other ways.” (Tyndale)

The Hebrew does not support the way Bibles like the KJV render it. Unfortunately it is left up to the wisdom of the Hebrew reader to understand the negative verses positive contrasts which are presented in every verse from
verse 14 thru verse 25. That is an old poetic manner of the ancient Hebrew but even our modern Jewish Bibles fail to consider it. But then the Jews relegated their gnosis (knowledge) born of their own wisdom to a place of reverence as if their knowledge was God. That is why Paul said at Romans 10:3 said, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

At Romans 10:2 Paul said, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." There the word for "knowledge is not "gnosis" but "epignosis", a deeper more accurate form of knowledge.

IOW's, we cannot assume that just because the Jewish Bibles translated Proverbs 14:17 the way they did that they had good reason for doing so. It was unthinkable to them who practically worshiped their own knowledge that anyone could hate them for having thinking ability. And so they broke the mold of the poetic form used in that verse instead of translating in accord to the form used in verses 14-25. The Hebrew word actually does just refer to "thinking ability." And it is not always used in a bad way in the Scriptures.

What we don't know can cause us to write songs like the one you mentioned. :)

I suppose I should tell you my main point. We have to learn to do our own thinking as God designed us to be able to do. We err to trust too heavily in men, even Scholars. We can benefit from them if we do not take their every word as gospel.

buzzb,

1. Fool’s rush in are people that do know according to v16; but the fool rageth and is confident.
That is why the fool has a quick temper because they have rage and are confident because they are full of themselves.
Men of wicked devices are premeditated schemers because they are open rebels against God who are deceivers and that is why they are hated.
I agree with the main point. I believe many things they do and some they don’t but I see whether or not they say the truth.
We are not to fall for every kind of whim or doctrine etc. Jerry Kelso
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Perhaps not, but I thought your last paragraph summed up pretty well.

The pressures of this world would not consume us if we have discovered that HE THAT IS WITHIN US IS MIGHTY AND HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD!

I understand the subtle hint you are giving me by what you said but to me it just does not matter. I have no problem ignoring that and just sharing what I know to be beneficial to you. So no problem there. I have Christ's shoulders to bear it with.

That particular verse of 1 John 4:4 (just as at 1 John 2:13-14) by the correct application of the Greek grammar indicates not so much the individual doing this but the oneness of godly spirit which gives strength to the brotherhood in Christ.

If you understood the Greek to the depth that I do you would be at least beginning to realize this is about us together more so than about us individually. When we think of it as applying individually we can benefit to a degree but it loses much of its power which is in and belongs to the body of Christ rather than to any one of us as a lone individual.

What happened is that sin turned us to a self centered nature where we began to think of ourselves as separate from one another. And by thinking of ourselves as separate from one another it becomes easier to hate one another and/or just exclude others. Whereas when we appreciate that there is only one flesh as Paul told us at 1 Cor 15:39 (Not "one kind of flesh" but "one flesh" for the words "kind of" are not in the Greek text of 1 Cor 15:39) and we therefore appreciate that we are all really and truly one body which was meant to operate by one godly spirit, then we have real power. The kind of power that Christian Psychologist Stephen Covey calls "synergistic."

Yes, when we properly understand the Greek grammar we learn that God is teaching us how to be synergistic in his power. He is not defeating that by appealing to us as individuals and you would know that if you really understood Greek grammar. So why do not so many other Greek Scholars teach the Bible like that then? Because they entered their education already having a belief and looking only to be able to better explain that belief. So they could not fully see to learn it all. That is why the majority of the schools to teach Greek sprung up around certain faiths. These schools taught in support of their own particular school of thought depending on what the religious affiliation was.

Belief is the most blinding force known to man.
I respect the fact your understanding of Greek it is what the NT was written with as well as Aramaic but spiritually speaking I see some serious short comings. The word holy means to be separate

The word church is ecclesia” Greek called out


The Hebrew word for holy is “qodesh” and means “apartness, set-apartness, separateness,

And the Greek Word for holy is “hagios” and means set apart, reverend, sacred, and worthy of veneration.”

A goat can be holy or set apart.

I see two churches "the called out" and Babylon.

Babylon tries to like with the children of Israel; I am climbing the (spiritual) mountain of God as Moses did; that is where the glory is.

God calls men not systems; never do you find a group of people called by God. The broad way that leads destruction is religion; men do not follow Christ they follow their Pastor/Priest or Pope, their denomination their system; not God’s anointing; anti Christ; anti anointing same thing. There is a true Church and a false Church; Babylon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory.

The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!

It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together."


Reference to Jesus with the Samaritan women at the well. He knew that Jews did not often speak to Samaritans, but He said to her, "Please give me a drink." The woman saw from His looks and His dress that He was a Jew, and she said to Him, "How is it that you, who are a Jew, ask drink of me, a Samaritan woman?" Jesus answered her, "If you know what God's free gift is, and if you knew who it is that says to you, Give me a drink, you would ask Him to give you living water, and He would give it to you."


She said to Him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where can you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who drank from this well?" "Whoever drinks of this water, " said Jesus, "shall thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him, shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up unto everlasting life." "Sir," said the woman, "give me some of this water of yours, so that I will not thirst any more nor come all the way to this well.
Now, which of these is the right place?" Her concern, and the major issue of the moment for her, had to do with the specific proper location for worship. In this respect, this woman differed little from the multitudes in this hour who ask, "Where should we worship? What church should we attend? What ministry should we submit to?"
The Lord did not dodge her question. Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe ME, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." The time would come, said the Lord, when both "this mountain" and "Jerusalem", as well as any other geographical locality, or appointed structure, would be considered completely irrelevant as a condition to worship.

A religious man needs the
The law is for spiritual children who need a baby sitter,

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

Here is the reason so many cannot forsake father, mother, reputation, church leadership position, etc, etc; notice the hundred fold which is the highest spiritual position mention in scripture, there is also a thirty fold, sixty fold where most dwell spiritually.

Matthew 19: 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Heb. 13:13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

Revelation 18:3-5
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I came out of Babylon in 1973
 
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buzzb,

1. Fool’s rush in are people that do know according to v16; but the fool rageth and is confident.
That is why the fool has a quick temper because they have rage and are confident because they are full of themselves.
Men of wicked devices are premeditated schemers because they are open rebels against God who are deceivers and that is why they are hated.
I agree with the main point. I believe many things they do and some they don’t but I see whether or not they say the truth.
We are not to fall for every kind of whim or doctrine etc. Jerry Kelso
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated. In other words there are plenty of goat believers.
 
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I respect the fact your understanding of Greek it is what the NT was written with as well as Aramaic but spiritually speaking I see some serious short comings. The word holy means to be separate

The word church is ecclesia” Greek called out


The Hebrew word for holy is “qodesh” and means “apartness, set-apartness, separateness,

And the Greek Word for holy is “hagios” and means set apart, reverend, sacred, and worthy of veneration.”

A goat can be holy or set apart.

I see two churches "the called out" and Babylon.

Babylon tries to like with the children of Israel; I am climbing the (spiritual) mountain of God as Moses did; that is where the glory is.

God calls men not systems; never do you find a group of people called by God. The broad way that leads destruction is religion; men do not follow Christ they follow their Pastor/Priest or Pope, their denomination their system; not God’s anointing; anti Christ; anti anointing same thing. There is a true Church and a false Church; Babylon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory.

The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!

It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together."


Reference to Jesus with the Samaritan women at the well. He knew that Jews did not often speak to Samaritans, but He said to her, "Please give me a drink." The woman saw from His looks and His dress that He was a Jew, and she said to Him, "How is it that you, who are a Jew, ask drink of me, a Samaritan woman?" Jesus answered her, "If you know what God's free gift is, and if you knew who it is that says to you, Give me a drink, you would ask Him to give you living water, and He would give it to you."


She said to Him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where can you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who drank from this well?" "Whoever drinks of this water, " said Jesus, "shall thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him, shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up unto everlasting life." "Sir," said the woman, "give me some of this water of yours, so that I will not thirst any more nor come all the way to this well.
Now, which of these is the right place?" Her concern, and the major issue of the moment for her, had to do with the specific proper location for worship. In this respect, this woman differed little from the multitudes in this hour who ask, "Where should we worship? What church should we attend? What ministry should we submit to?"
The Lord did not dodge her question. Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe ME, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." The time would come, said the Lord, when both "this mountain" and "Jerusalem", as well as any other geographical locality, or appointed structure, would be considered completely irrelevant as a condition to worship.

A religious man needs the
The law is for spiritual children who need a baby sitter,

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

Here is the reason so many cannot forsake father, mother, reputation, church leadership position, etc, etc; notice the hundred fold which is the highest spiritual position mention in scripture, there is also a thirty fold, sixty fold where most dwell spiritually.

Matthew 19: 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Heb. 13:13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

Revelation 18:3-5
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I came out of Babylon in 1973
You do have that part down well and I agree with you, so far as my quick read tells me, 100%. I am impressed.

However I do have a concern. And that concern is that you yet retain some of the doctrinal beliefs of Babylon and are not so willing to revisit a discussion of those particular beliefs.

I ran into a similar situation speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses who also believe that they have separated from Babylon the Great. But they yet retain some of Babylon the Great's teachings unbeknownst to themselves and it greatly set them into a frenzy when I revealed those places to them.

You are right that there is an anointing of individuals. But the real power comes of the spiritual unity. Apart from that spiritual unity one cannot really be one with God so as to really have his power, for if they were they would be and act as one with all who are one in him and would not be so independent.
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. Fool’s rush in are people that do know according to v16; but the fool rageth and is confident.
That is why the fool has a quick temper because they have rage and are confident because they are full of themselves.
Men of wicked devices are premeditated schemers because they are open rebels against God who are deceivers and that is why they are hated.
I agree with the main point. I believe many things they do and some they don’t but I see whether or not they say the truth.
We are not to fall for every kind of whim or doctrine etc. Jerry Kelso
Rubbish.

Proverbs 2:11 ; 3:21; 5:2; 8:12 all use the same word in a positive light. And that is just in the Proverbs. The same Hebrew expression is used in many books of the OT with a positive meaning.

I told you to look at the poetic scheme used in verses 14-25 but you evidently prefer not to do that. All of those verses in Proverbs 14 list both a negative and a positive. Verse 17 is out of place the way you claim. But not only that, even the contrast is bad between the two negatives you create. Consider:

Proverbs 14:17a "He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly:" (Not a wicked one but a foolish one)

Proverbs 14:17b "and a man of wicked devices is hated. (there the foolish one is assumed wicked)

There is a huge difference between a mere foolish man and a wicked man in the Scriptures. Wicked are wise in their own conceit as even David describes them in the Psalms.

Proverbs 26:12 "Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him."

So before you speak such words to me about others perhaps you should look in the mirror. IOW's are you really not trusting in the translators who are just men, the same as they do?
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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You do have that part down well and I agree with you, so far as my quick read tells me, 100%. I am impressed.

However I do have a concern. And that concern is that you yet retain some of the doctrinal beliefs of Babylon and are not so willing to revisit a discussion of those particular beliefs.

I ran into a similar situation speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses who also believe that they have separated from Babylon the Great. But they yet retain some of Babylon the Great's teachings unbeknownst to themselves and it greatly set them into a frenzy when I revealed those places to them.

You are right that there is an anointing of individuals. But the real power comes of the spiritual unity. Apart from that spiritual unity one cannot really be one with God so as to really have his power, for if they were they would be and act as one with all who are one in him and would not be so independent.
Yes there is a spiritual unity but that is not what is happening in the religious system it is more of a soulish unity. They have it backwards.
I repeat; Anti Christ; Anti Anointing means the same thing

I remember years ago I was in a Pentecostal movement and I would always hear about these men who were anointed. They would have conventions and all the local churches would travel to Flint Michigan or where ever the convention was. Get all dressed up in there suits and the ladies in their dresses and their hair that they would not cut. We would go to hear these great men of God this religion anointed. Of course the message was like a puppet in that they were let not by the Spirit of Truth as they proclaimed but by the dictates of their National Head Quarters.

As I grew in the Lord and praise God left such a religious fiasco I learned the only anointing I should trust is the Spirit of truth with in me. Today I know of many Spirit led men I will called anointed. Not because some man made religion anointed them; but because my spirit with in me, agrees with that anointing.

I believe there is a real spiritual Church; I also believe there are also carnal churches, intercultural churches, and intellectual churches and the list goes on. God is a spirit not a brain. BUT what does the Bible say how God choices his anointed?

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

Yes there is a body of Christ and God is moving at many levels in His body but there is also those who have been called out. I was called out in 1973 and never looked back.
 
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Yes there is a spiritual unity but that is not what is happening in the religious system it is more of a soulish unity. They have it backwards.
I repeat; Anti Christ; Anti Anointing means the same thing

I remember years ago I was in a Pentecostal movement and I would always hear about these men who were anointed. They would have conventions and all the local churches would travel to Flint Michigan or where ever the convention was. Get all dressed up in there suits and the ladies in their dresses and their hair that they would not cut. We would go to hear these great men of God this religion anointed. Of course the message was like a puppet in that they were let not by the Spirit of Truth as they proclaimed but by the dictates of their National Head Quarters.

As I grew in the Lord and praise God left such a religious fiasco I learned the only anointing I should trust is the Spirit of truth with in me. Today I know of many Spirit led men I will called anointed. Not because some man made religion anointed them; but because my spirit with in me, agrees with that anointing.

I believe there is a real spiritual Church; I also believe there are also carnal churches, intercultural churches, and intellectual churches and the list goes on. God is a spirit not a brain. BUT what does the Bible say how God choices his anointed?

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

Yes there is a body of Christ and God is moving at many levels in His body but there is also those who have been called out. I was called out in 1973 and never looked back.
Yes, I do understand that. I am one of those called-out ones. I used to deny it when it first began to happen but God worked powerful miracles in front of me so that eventually I had to recognize he was singling me out. He even let me walk through a rain storm with water pouring heavily all around me and none of it landing on me. I have known angels and more.
 
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What is more important to you; your religion, your friends, your local body or what God is truly saying. How many Catholics/Baptist or what ever religion would never except something out side their camp because of tradition, family and friends. There comes a place in this argument I believe this is the only reason for the bias.

Isaiah 4: 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

This is the religious system today

Here is the reason so many cannot forsake father, mother, reputation, church leadership position, etc, etc; notice the hundred fold which is the highest spiritual position mention in scripture, there is also a thirty fold, sixty fold where most dwell spiritually.

Matthew 19: 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
 
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Yes, I do understand that. I am one of those called-out ones. I used to deny it when it first began to happen but God worked powerful miracles in front of me so that eventually I had to recognize he was singling me out. He even let me walk through a rain storm with water pouring heavily all around me and none of it landing on me. I have known angels and more.
Amen. That is where God has you. “in my Father’s house are many mansions”; or Greek abiding place. All people have a different abiding places
 
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What is more important to you; your religion, your friends, your local body or what God is truly saying. How many Catholics/Baptist or what ever religion would never except something out side their camp because of tradition, family and friends. There comes a place in this argument I believe this is the only reason for the bias.

Isaiah 4: 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

This is the religious system today

Here is the reason so many cannot forsake father, mother, reputation, church leadership position, etc, etc; notice the hundred fold which is the highest spiritual position mention in scripture, there is also a thirty fold, sixty fold where most dwell spiritually.

Matthew 19: 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Yes, Mathew 19:28 is followed by the fulfillment of Zechariah 8:23 which is the gentiles coming in.

I had to correct that as I got hasty and tried to reply to fast. It does, however all become one.
 
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Amen. That is where God has you. “in my Father’s house are many mansions”; or Greek abiding place. All people have a different abiding places
I like your broader view of that verse for I often use it to show that the earth is meant to be one of those abodes had not sin caused its debasement.
 
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