All Israel is saved

Buzz_B

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Hissing? You are a goat believer. You cannot give anyone a straight answer if we ask you something outside of your religious understanding? I asked you who created evil and you quote some off the wall verses that mean nothing. Obviously you only can think within the limited scope your belief system has given you and there is no more for you to seek after. All you have is personal attacks. So who is responsible for evil? God or an evil force greater than God who God is helpless to control?
I think it is best if you and I just stop speaking to each other. You obviously are getting angry at me.
 
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jerry kelso

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For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27


Paul is saying that when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and after the tribulation when Christ returns to save Israel from destruction, the remnant that is left...all of them (all Israel) will see and realize Jesus is their Messiah and will be saved.

"So how will “all Israel be saved”? The details of this deliverance are filled out in passages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs at the end of the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

After Israel is spiritually restored, Christ will establish His millennial kingdom on earth. Israel will be regathered from the ends of the earth (Isaiah 11:12; 62:10). The symbolic “dry bones” of Ezekiel’s vision will be brought together, covered with flesh, and miraculously resuscitated (Ezekiel 37:1–14). As God promised, the salvation of Israel will involve both a spiritual awakening and a geographical home: “I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land” (Ezekiel 37:14).

In the Day of the Lord, God will “reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). Jesus Christ will return and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). Sinners will be judged, and the faithful remnant of Israel will be set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance; Zion will rule over all the nations under the banner of Messiah the King."
Will all Israel be saved in the end times?

riseninJesus,

1. Overall, I like your post and agree with most all of it.
I disagree with the 144,000 being the faithful remnant because they are resurrected as the man child in Revelation 12 and seen in the heavenly Mt. Sion in Revelation 14.
So can you elaborate more about your position from scripture because Zechariah 7:1-8 and 8:7-8 can fit your principle of your idea of the remnant but not the whole context of the 144,000.
Thank you and look forward to your response. Jerry kelso
 
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Buzz_B

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riseninJesus,

1. Overall, I like your post and agree with most all of it.
I disagree with the 144,000 being the faithful remnant because they are resurrected as the man child in Revelation 12 and seen in the heavenly Mt. Sion in Revelation 14.
So can you elaborate more about your position from scripture because Zechariah 7:1-8 and 8:7-8 can fit your principle of your idea of the remnant but not the whole context of the 144,000.
Thank you and look forward to your response. Jerry kelso
Dear Jerry, the use of gender is about authority, not about actual sex. In relation to Christ as their head they are pictured as a woman. In their roles as associate kings/priests with Christ they are pictured as having authority with Christ and therefore as male in relation to whom they rule over.
 
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jerry kelso

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Dear Jerry, the use of gender is about authority, not about actual sex. In relation to Christ as their head they are pictured as a woman. In their roles as associate kings/priests with Christ they are pictured as having authority with Christ and therefore as male in relation to whom they rule over.

buzzb,

1. I am sorry but I don’t think you understand the full context of my position about the 144,000.
I haven’t even mentioned sex but obviously you must think it is only symbolic of authority but doesn’t involve real people?
Also, there is no record of the 144,000 being in authority for they are missionaries and sealed in Revelation 7 and through the trumpet judgements are kept safe Revelation 9:4 and are seen no more until they are in Heaven. Revelation 14:1-5.
The man child is being chased by the dragon who is Satan and he fails to get the manchild who goes to the throne Revelation 12:5 which is where they are at in Revelation 14:1-5.

2. So what is your position overall on the 144,000 and their authority as their mission? Jerry kelso
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. I am sorry but I don’t think you understand the full context of my position about the 144,000.
I haven’t even mentioned sex but obviously you must think it is only symbolic of authority but doesn’t involve real people?
Also, there is no record of the 144,000 being in authority for they are missionaries and sealed in Revelation 7 and through the trumpet judgements are kept safe Revelation 9:4 and are seen no more until they are in Heaven. Revelation 14:1-5.
The man child is being chased by the dragon who is Satan and he fails to get the manchild who goes to the throne Revelation 12:5 which is where they are at in Revelation 14:1-5.

2. So what is your position overall on the 144,000 and their authority as their mission? Jerry kelso
My position is as follows:
I do not care to debate whether the number is literal or figurative. But I do know they represent those first to be sealed of God as shown at Revelation 7:1-9 and shown to serve as the core of king/priests with Christ per Revelation 5:9-10.

That these mentioned at revelation 5:9-10 are the same ones pictured at Revelation 14:1-5 is clearly seen in that both sing the song that no one can know accept for the 144,000. Compare Revelation 14:3 and Revelation 5:9

That they are those known as the elect ones of God (chosen as firstfruits with Christ) is shown numerous places throughout the NT. I don't even feel I should have to tell you where to look for it is right in front of our noses all through the NT.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Thank you fro your kind opinion. Duly noted. :)
Your whole religion is fake if you cannot look beyond what some religious dead person told some dead person etc. God created evil and controls all things. It is that simple.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. There is no such thing as a good god bad god there is God. Don't give the hogwash the word evil also means calamity it does. it also means evil.


Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

This is not to "blame" God for evil, but to simply clarify that evil is also a tool He uses in the grand scheme of things.
 
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jerry kelso

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My position is as follows:
I do not care to debate whether the number is literal or figurative. But I do know they represent those first to be sealed of God as shown at Revelation 7:1-9 and shown to serve as the core of king/priests with Christ per Revelation 5:9-10.

That these mentioned at revelation 5:9-10 are the same ones pictured at Revelation 14:1-5 is clearly seen in that both sing the song that no one can know accept for the 144,000. Compare Revelation 14:3 and Revelation 5:9

That they are those known as the elect ones of God (chosen as firstfruits with Christ) is shown numerous places throughout the NT. I don't even feel I should have to tell you where to look for it is right in front of our noses all through the NT.

buzzb,

1. I am sure you are a little confused.
Those in Revelation 5:9 are before the tribulation and we’re Jews and Gentiles alike.

2. Revelation 7:1-8 are all ethnic Jews because it deals with the purification of Israel Daniel 9:24-27. It is not the spiritual Israel theory.

3. They sing a new song in 5:9 that was talking about the Lion of Judah being the only one to open the seals to start the tribulation v5 with v9. This means they are saints in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 14:1-5 are in Heaven and have been redeemed from among men and the earth. No man could learn the song which is related to being preserved through the seals and trumpet judgements and raptured as the man child and in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation when Satan is fixing to give his power, Sea at and authority to the antichrist Revelation 13:2. Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 12:4-5; 14:1-5 shows the beginning to end.
Chapter 5 and 7 are two different time factors, two different groups, and two different context.

4. The 144,000 elect are firstfruits of the tribulation. The church full of gentiles and Jews from the church age are raptured before the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:23,51 for the rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints who only understood the second coming of Christ which was a day of Vengeance Isaiah 34:8.
It was all about the KoH restoration which Jesus preached Matthew 4:17; 10:6-7 and the apostles were still looking for after Christ arose and right before he ascended into heaven before the Day of Pentecost Acts 1:6-7.

5. Concerning reigning it doesn’t mean the 144,000 will not rule but you are trying to compare scripture without understanding that they are two different context altogether.
Just because they have similar features doesn’t mean they are the same. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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My position is as follows:
I do not care to debate whether the number is literal or figurative. But I do know they represent those first to be sealed of God as shown at Revelation 7:1-9 and shown to serve as the core of king/priests with Christ per Revelation 5:9-10.

That these mentioned at revelation 5:9-10 are the same ones pictured at Revelation 14:1-5 is clearly seen in that both sing the song that no one can know accept for the 144,000. Compare Revelation 14:3 and Revelation 5:9

That they are those known as the elect ones of God (chosen as firstfruits with Christ) is shown numerous places throughout the NT. I don't even feel I should have to tell you where to look for it is right in front of our noses all through the NT.

buzzb,

1. I am sure you are a little confused.
Those in Revelation 5:9 are before the tribulation and we’re Jews and Gentiles alike.

2. Revelation 7:1-8 are all ethnic Jews because it deals with the purification of Israel Daniel 9:24-27. It is not the spiritual Israel theory.

3. They sing a new song in 5:9 that was talking about the Lion of Judah being the only one to open the seals to start the tribulation v5 with v9. This means they are saints in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 14:1-5 are in Heaven and have been redeemed from among men and the earth. No man could learn the song which is related to being preserved through the seals and trumpet judgements and raptured as the man child and in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation when Satan is fixing to give his power, Sea at and authority to the antichrist Revelation 13:2. Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 12:4-5; 14:1-5 shows the beginning to end.
Chapter 5 and 7 are two different time factors, two different groups, and two different context.

4. The 144,000 elect are firstfruits of the tribulation. The church full of gentiles and Jews from the church age are raptured before the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:23,51 for the rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints who only understood the second coming of Christ which was a day of Vengeance Isaiah 34:8.
It was all about the KoH restoration which Jesus preached Matthew 4:17; 10:6-7 and the apostles were still looking for after Christ arose and right before he ascended into heaven before the Day of Pentecost Acts 1:6-7.

5. Concerning reigning it doesn’t mean the 144,000 will not rule but you are trying to compare scripture without understanding that they are two different context altogether.
Just because they have similar features doesn’t mean they are the same. Jerry Kelso
 
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claninja

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This Physical kingdom reign was rejected by the Jews in Jesus day

No it wasn’t. The physical earthly kingdom, where the messiah ruled in physical Jerusalem over the physical earth is what the Jews wanted. They wanted the Roman Empire overthrown.

When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!” Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
John 6:14-15

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”
John 12:13

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Acts 1:6

The Jews covenant of the land and the kingdom reign on earth are eternal 2 Samuel 7:13-16

2 Samuel 13-16, was fulfilled first with Solomon
He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
2 Samuel 7:13-15

And fulfilled in Christ
And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”
2 Samuel 7:16
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. I am sure you are a little confused.
Those in Revelation 5:9 are before the tribulation and we’re Jews and Gentiles alike.

2. Revelation 7:1-8 are all ethnic Jews because it deals with the purification of Israel Daniel 9:24-27. It is not the spiritual Israel theory.

3. They sing a new song in 5:9 that was talking about the Lion of Judah being the only one to open the seals to start the tribulation v5 with v9. This means they are saints in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 14:1-5 are in Heaven and have been redeemed from among men and the earth. No man could learn the song which is related to being preserved through the seals and trumpet judgements and raptured as the man child and in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation when Satan is fixing to give his power, Sea at and authority to the antichrist Revelation 13:2. Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 12:4-5; 14:1-5 shows the beginning to end.
Chapter 5 and 7 are two different time factors, two different groups, and two different context.

4. The 144,000 elect are firstfruits of the tribulation. The church full of gentiles and Jews from the church age are raptured before the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:23,51 for the rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints who only understood the second coming of Christ which was a day of Vengeance Isaiah 34:8.
It was all about the KoH restoration which Jesus preached Matthew 4:17; 10:6-7 and the apostles were still looking for after Christ arose and right before he ascended into heaven before the Day of Pentecost Acts 1:6-7.

5. Concerning reigning it doesn’t mean the 144,000 will not rule but you are trying to compare scripture without understanding that they are two different context altogether.
Just because they have similar features doesn’t mean they are the same. Jerry Kelso
You are welcome to be sure all you wish to be. But that is all it will be; A wish. You evidently think you can apply a chronological order to the book of Revelation but that is a false idea. Revelation is a series of over-lapping visions with parts of some of the visions occurring even before the vision prior to the one being spoken of.

But hey, what do I know? I know that if you were supposed to understand; You would.

Have a nice day. :)
 
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jerry kelso

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No it wasn’t. The physical earthly kingdom, where the messiah ruled in physical Jerusalem over the physical earth is what the Jews wanted. They wanted the Roman Empire overthrown.

When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!” Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
John 6:14-15

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”
John 12:13

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Acts 1:6



2 Samuel 13-16, was fulfilled first with Solomon
He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
2 Samuel 7:13-15

And fulfilled in Christ
And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”
2 Samuel 7:16

claninja,

1. The Jews did want to make him king and have the physical kingdom but they didn’t want to Repent Matthew 4:17, 10:6-7.

2. Jesus came to be the Savior of the world and the church was foreordained to come into existence before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4.

3. It was never prophesied that Israel would accept Christ. Christ KoH offer was valid but only if they repented and they didn’t.
The rejection of Christ is found in Matthew 23:37-39.
This is why their house was made desolate in 70 A.D. which Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:1-2.
The KoH will come to fruition when he comes back again when the Jews say blessed be the name of the Lord.
The Jews were backslidden then and still are and will be in the tribulation until the second advent at the battle of Armageddon when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in Romans 11:25. Verse 29: the gifts and callings are without repentance and will happen.

4. Acts 1:6 the disciples were still curious about the KoH reign being restored and he said it was for them to know because only the Father knew.
It didn’t happen and won’t until the nation as a whole will repent or receive forgiveness from sin Hebrews 8:7-13.

5. Fulfilled in Christ was the spiritual aspect of the KoG which dealt with salvation.
The physical KoH will not be manifested until the kingdoms of this world become his. That has not happened yet as we can plainly see.
At the time of Jesus he said his kingdom was not of this world John 18:36. Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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You are welcome to be sure all you wish to be. But that is all it will be; A wish. You evidently think you can apply a chronological order to the book of Revelation but that is a false idea. Revelation is a series of over-lapping visions with parts of some of the visions occurring even before the vision prior to the one being spoken of.

But hey, what do I know? I know that if you were supposed to understand; You would.

Have a nice day. :)

buzzb,

1. For someone who is so confident that they have biblical truth you don’t believe in showing biblical proof.

2. The chronological is not quite what you think.
Revelation 17&18 are not chronological.
You also have to understand parentheticals and the the time factor within them.

3. Revelation 1:10 was in the Spirit and was given the vision of the son of man in the midst of the 7 golden candlesticks Revelation 1-10-20.
He was on the isle of Patmos Revelation 1:9. It ends in 3:22.

4. Revelation 4:1 John is taking up to heaven in Revelation 4:1 and verse 2 he was in the Spirit and at the throne etc.

5. Revelation 21:9-10; John was carried away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.
Revelation 6 -21 John seems to be on the earth.
There is no overlapping of visions.
If you believe in chiasms or that the trumpets are concealed in the seals and the vials are contained in the trumpets.
Biblical proof; tell me one time then show me. Jerry Kelso
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. For someone who is so confident that they have biblical truth you don’t believe in showing biblical proof.

2. The chronological is not quite what you think.
Revelation 17&18 are not chronological.
You also have to understand parentheticals and the the time factor within them.

3. Revelation 1:10 was in the Spirit and was given the vision of the son of man in the midst of the 7 golden candlesticks Revelation 1-10-20.
He was on the isle of Patmos Revelation 1:9. It ends in 3:22.

4. Revelation 4:1 John is taking up to heaven in Revelation 4:1 and verse 2 he was in the Spirit and at the throne etc.

5. Revelation 21:9-10; John was carried away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.
Revelation 6 -21 John seems to be on the earth.
There is no overlapping of visions.
If you believe in chiasms or that the trumpets are concealed in the seals and the vials are contained in the trumpets.
Biblical proof; tell me one time then show me. Jerry Kelso
I know and I do appologize for that but I am just a tired old man. :)

There are just some things I don't any longer find any pleasure in tussling with.

I don't know how old you are, but I have raised six children and fourteen grandchildren and now have great grandchildren. I learned that it was senseless to try to explain every detail of everything to them for they are most usually so full of their own ideas that they scarcely relate to what anyone tells them beyond what they presently see and believe whether or not they are mistaken in the way they see things. That is just a fact of life we must be able to accept. Otherwise there is no end to the wrangling. Sometimes you just have to let go and let them learn for themselves.

And that is all you are noticing in me. :)

Hope that helps.

Edit: And I suppose I should address why it is you sense that I am so certain of myself. You would have to have worn my shoes and walked my life to really understand. And then you would know that I was not taught every detail of what I know by men nor did I just sit around and when ideas which seemed logical to me came into my head grasped onto them. You can believe it or not believe it, that is your choice, but I was actually shown the truth of God's word in the same way as was Paul and I actually have had visions as did John. That is why I understand what took place with John. And not one thing God ever showed me has failed. Some have already happened and some I know will happen.

What good would it do for me to deny how I learned it just because others choose not to believe me?
 
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jerry kelso

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I know and I do appologize for that but I am just a tired old man. :)

There are just some things I don't any longer find any pleasure in tussling with.

I don't know how old you are, but I have raised six children and fourteen grandchildren and now have great grandchildren. I learned that it was senseless to try to explain every detail of everything to them for they are most usually so full of their own ideas that they scarcely relate to what anyone tells them beyond what they presently see and believe whether or not they are mistaken in the way they see things. That is just a fact of life we must be able to accept. Otherwise there is no end to the wrangling. Sometimes you just have to let go and let them learn for themselves.

And that is all you are noticing in me. :)

Hope that helps.

Edit: And I suppose I should address why it is you sense that I am so certain of myself. You would have to have worn my shoes and walked my life to really understand. And then you would know that I was not taught every detail of what I know by men nor did I just sit around and when ideas which seemed logical to me came into my head grasped onto them. You can believe it or not believe it, that is your choice, but I was actually shown the truth of God's word in the same way as was Paul and I actually have had visions as did John. That is why I understand what took place with John. And not one thing God ever showed me has failed. Some have already happened and some I know will happen.

What good would it do for me to deny how I learned it just because others choose not to believe me?

buzzb,

1. I have children and grandkids but no grandkids, age wise I am just a few years behind you.

2. The Bible says to study show yourself approved.

3. Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean Acts 10:48 because the mystery of the church had not manifested yet even though it was ratified at the cross Ephesians 2:14-15;3:3-6. This is because of gradual Revelation because not everything of the New Covenant was understood because they were still trying to figure out how the law worked under the New Covenant.
Peter was still looking the KoH and didn’t understand the church age was different in some ways such as with the Gentiles.
They knew they would get saved but didn’t think they were supposed to be equal with them because the Jews were given eternal Covenants in the KoH as the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 and the oracles of God to propagate the gospel Romans 3:2.
Paul explained what happened at Calvary where the veil was rent into so Jew and Gentile would be one in Christ.

4. Paul had visions and revelations when God was dealing with him about the differences of the gospel he preached to the Gentiles Galatian 2:2, 7 and how he was favored to the Gentiles as Peter was to the Jews.
Paul was a student of Gamaliel and knew the law of Moses up and down and was perfect to the law except that he killed the uncircumcision Christians because he thought he was being a Godpleaser Acts 9:1-12 and claimed Christ was the Son of God, but God had mercy on him 1 Timothy 1:13-16 and struck him down Acts 9 and humbled him and showed him the differences about the Old and New Covenant and the mystery of the church etc. in depth in Arabia Galatians 2:1-6-7.
Paul went to the heathen.
2 Corinthians 12 he mentioned about his visions and revelations and how he was up to Paradise and about his specific infirmities that came by way of a messenger of Satan to buffet him which was the trials he went through according to chapter 11 was his trials he went through such as perils of shipwreck, and whippings etc vs. 23–28.

5. I am not against visions and the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth but one has to study to show themselves approved.
No matter how God deals with a man the truth has to line up with the word.

6. We all have to do the best we can and we all have hermeneutics but different levels of understanding.
Biblical hermeneutics deal with what is God’s purpose and destiny for man and earth and the restitution of all things.
History, customs and the way God dealt with men in different ages and what applies to our age in the form of gradual revelation.
Their are plain Staten s, figures of speech and immediate, book, and Bible contextand comparing scripture etc. all in proper perspective.

7. I believe iron sharpens iron vitas much as I have learned from great theologians or just real studied Christians I know when to listen and when not to for the most part. If I don’t know I say I don’t. I always keep hammering to find the truth and sometimes I might get temporary tunnel vision but I get to the truth sooner or later because I stay open to the truth.
At the same time there are things that are not debatable such as the blood for remission of sins etc.
I deduce things by setting them side by side as well. For example, Revelation 12 can have 3 and more different interpretation with their scriptures on their own and the way explained but they are not all right and when you set them side by side you can see more clear.

8. I understand how it can be on these sites but to be scripturally consistent one has to be as literal as can be. It doesn’t mean there is no spiritual application but if you allegorize more you can make it say what you want to.
Whether literal or allegorizing both can go awry if one goes to the extreme.
If you go too literal you could believe Christ wan actual 4 legged lamb instead of a man.
If you make Adam and Eve symbolic and spiritual alone then you deny God created man and would be denying God is the creator. Jerry kelso
 
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Buzz_B

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buzzb,

1. I have children and grandkids but no grandkids, age wise I am just a few years behind you.
Then you understand what I was speaking of IF you have worked at teaching your children and grandchildren. For we do run into many of the same problems teaching them. It can make us go bald and get old much quicker if we expect too much too fast with them. And we also have our job complicated in that the world is set up so that the world's own teachers are pushed over and above the wisdom of a parent. The world sees the common parent not so much as a teacher but as a care-taker and the world pushes our children to respect its teachers over and above so-called disadvantaged parents who grew up in an age where modern hyper enlightened education was not available to them.

The flesh church's promotion of so-called Scholars is a similar error, for Scholars are but men who studied and searched to figure things out just as we ourselves can do if we would take the initiative to do so. And once we trust Scholars to be our kathegetes we are in violation of Matthew 23:10 and being led by men whose errors become our errors. Men should never be more than didaskalos to us.

jerry kelso said:
2. The Bible says to study show yourself approved.
Agreed. So that we can be “a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.” The context there reveals that there was much some had to be ashamed of. Things such as striving about words and more. Which is why we have to know when to push our points and when not to, for not all are favorable to receiving knowledge.

Tell me why I say that Proverbs 14:17 is one of the more horrendously mistranslated verses in many Bibles?

I will respond to the rest of your post later, For now I will pause to let you answer that question. Tell me why I say that Proverbs 14:17 is one of the more horrendously mistranslated verses in many Bibles?

By the way, my overall assessment of your post is that I can see great effort and sound thinking in it. So please do not think I am in any way saying you are ignorant. You are in the process of being refined.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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What many get confused with is the spiritual and the physical. The Old testament was a foundation for spiritual symbolism spiritual in the New testament. many of these foundations seemed negative and harsh. I see the temple at Zion as a spiritual temple and the spiritual is surely more real or literal than the physical earth temple made up of physical stones. God has absolutely no need of such a temple but instead the temple/tabernacles of the OT are wonderful physical example for us to understand the spiritual.

I have posted this before but here it is again: . The OT types with the temple/tabernacle of God with each temple showing us the true temple the temple of God with in us; which is our holy of hollies.

The Children of Israel started out with the Tabernacle in the wilderness; next came the Tabernacle in of David. After that came Solomon's temple and then there was Herod’s Temple. All of these pointing to a type and shallow of things to come in the realm of the spirit and the true temple not built by hands which is in us.

Every piece of furniture, every step, every room, curtain etc is a for shallow or example for those who have ears to hear.

Lets look at the candlestick in the Book of Revelation:

The lampstand was a piece of furniture found in the Holy place in the temple. It was made from beaten gold. Gold that was beaten to show us the process of divine life is thought trials and tribulations and made by the masters hands. God is one but this oil lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff symbolic of the seven spirits of God found in Is. 11:2.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Every day the priest would have to immerse the lamp stand in oil; oil symbolic of the anointing and light the fire (fire symbolic of God's purifying fire) of the lamp.

Interesting fact is there were three lights in the temple.

One was the outer court where the light of the sun was the only light; but when darkness fell there was no light. Showing us a place of BOTH light in darkness in the outer court of our understanding in our temple.

Of course had the lamp stand which gave us some light during darkness in the Holy Place which I just mentioned above..

Last of all was the Holy of holies. Here there was no light from the sun or the lamp stand. Here only God's glory was the light of the temple.
 
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Buzz_B

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So you are blaming the created and ignoring the creator as if God had no clue?
I do have to admit that your thinking repulses me. For you are blaming God for all we suffer instead of placing the responsibility with the sinner where it belongs and in so doing you stumble many away from ever desiring to have faith in a God they, by way of accepting such views as yours, see as an evil tyrant. Why do you think men debate whether the OT God is the true God? Do you not pay any attention to the talk of people around you in the world?

Wise young Elihu told Job, "Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity." Job 34:10

Abraham's faith in the goodness of God was shown, here:
Genesis 18:23-25
23 "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Yet you accuse God of not only being able to choose to destroy the wicked and the righteous together, but of all evil which has befallen man. And I have to admit that makes your way of thinking curdle my stomach. For there can be no greater example of evil thinking than that. How can you not see that?

Where is your answer on where does evil come from?
This shows me how little you do think. For you should have no problem knowing that evil is not a real or tangible thing. Evil is a concept. It is not something one creates like a tangible object but it is the consequences of ones actions as in "that person has created havoc."

And so i find it deplorable when anyone fails to see that they their own self by their choices which govern their own conduct either do good or create evil. Evil is a concept describing the quality of our choice of actions. The word in Hebrew or Greek is predominantly used as a verb just as is love (agapao) but denoting an action which resists instead of builds up as does love. And so God in the name of justice can use an appropriate evil to resist the inappropriate evil by man, such as at Isaiah 45:7 where the Hebrew word "ra'" is better translated as "calamity." And you would know that if you paid attention to the context where it shows that he is telling the children of Israel that after having allowed them their day to be darkened and filled with the evil of distress by letting them go into captivity to Babylon that He was now going to take action to restore the light of day to them and the goodness of peace instead of the evil of calamity that He let befall them.

Evil is a by-product of our choice of actions. We or God creates it only by how we choose to act. And when God chooses to use evil as his manner of action he always does so righteously in the cause of justice.

Please get this matter straight in you mind so that others do not run off following your manner of thinking and end up hating God out of ignorance.

Man was created by God and man fell into sin and death which God planned. Are you saying God did not know this would happen?
I would not want to be your child if you as a father had no faith in me. Love does not foresee that we are going to choose to do evil. Love trusts and by trusting teaches us to trust. If God suspiciously looked into man's future that way he would then have set an example that when we followed it would surely lead to hating one another even before we actually did wrong to one another. Your manner of thinking is unreasonable and dangerous.

Christ Jesus lived and died, not just to provide a ransom for our sins, but also to vindicate his Father's name in this earth by showing us the goodness of God. And your thinking when you teach others to think that way works against the very meaning of the life of Christ who lived and died to vindicate his Father's name.

God is omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent.
This is really beside the point, but I know you are using it to claim that God had to know ahead of time every detail that would ever be. Well, I know you are wrong. Start a thread on Omniscience and I will present the Scriptural proofs. That happens to be a subject I have spent more time analyzing than many other subjects. And I understand how and why you think as you do, for I used to also. But I now understand.

You as a Greek scholar i am sure understands the meaning of the words? So Who controls evil? Little man? Satan and God is helpless to stop him?
So you think that God is a control freak? If so you really do not know God.


I am sorry if any of this sounds offensive, but few subjects get my dander up like this one. It hurts me to see people blaming God rather than accepting to place responsibility where it belongs.
 
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jerry kelso

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Then you understand what I was speaking of IF you have worked at teaching your children and grandchildren. For we do run into many of the same problems teaching them. It can make us go bald and get old much quicker if we expect too much too fast with them. And we also have our job complicated in that the world is set up so that the world's own teachers are pushed over and above the wisdom of a parent. The world sees the common parent not so much as a teacher but as a care-taker and the world pushes our children to respect its teachers over and above so-called disadvantaged parents who grew up in an age where modern hyper enlightened education was not available to them.

The flesh church's promotion of so-called Scholars is a similar error, for Scholars are but men who studied and searched to figure things out just as we ourselves can do if we would take the initiative to do so. And once we trust Scholars to be our kathegetes we are in violation of Matthew 23:10 and being led by men whose errors become our errors. Men should never be more than didaskalos to us.

Agreed. So that we can be “a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.” The context there reveals that there was much some had to be ashamed of. Things such as striving about words and more. Which is why we have to know when to push our points and when not to, for not all are favorable to receiving knowledge.

Tell me why I say that Proverbs 14:17 is one of the more horrendously mistranslated verses in many Bibles?

I will respond to the rest of your post later, For now I will pause to let you answer that question. Tell me why I say that Proverbs 14:17 is one of the more horrendously mistranslated verses in many Bibles?

By the way, my overall assessment of your post is that I can see great effort and sound thinking in it. So please do not think I am in any way saying you are ignorant. You are in the process of being refined.

buzzb,

1. I meant to say that I have grandkids and not great grand kids.

2. If I knew raising kids paralleld
with teaching kids in a Christian home I would have done differently among some other things.

3. The Bible says to be like the Bereans to see if they say the truth.
I have studied enough to know what to listen to and what not to.

4. V 16 talks about the wise being cautious of what they do.
Fool rush in like the Elvis song goes and rush in recklessly.
Verse 17 seems to mimic that cause the fool going to folly is quick tempered and lacks self control.
The schemers are hated for they do are premeditated and destined to do harm.
I’ve gotta go but that is off the top of my head. Jerry kelso
 
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