Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[South Bound]

Where does scripture say believers can't be slaves to sin? I see it all the time.

Among many other places, here:

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14

 

[samir]

Among many other places, here:

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14

I'm aware that a person needs to repent to be regenerated. However, where does scripture say someone who has repented is unable to go back to being a slave to sin? Verses 12-13 tell believers not to go back to living in sin which doesn't make sense if it wasn't possible.

 

[South Bound]

I'm aware that a person needs to repent to be regenerated. However, where does scripture say someone who has repented is unable to go back to being a slave to sin? Verses 12-13 tell believers not to go back to living in sin which doesn't make sense if it wasn't possible.

How can they go back to being a slave to sin, when they've been regenerated, crucified to sin with Christ, and given a new nature?

Is the work of the Holy Spirit really that superficial in your estimation that it can just be unraveled like a cheap sweater?

 

[samir]

How can they go back to being a slave to sin, when they've been regenerated, crucified to sin with Christ, and given a new nature?

Free will. God respects a person's decision whatever that may be.

Is the work of the Holy Spirit really that superficial in your estimation that it can just be unraveled like a cheap sweater?

It's up to the believer, not the Holy Spirit.

 

[South Bound]

Free will. God respects a person's decision whatever that may be.

So, the Bible's description of regeneration and the new nature is wrong? That a person can just shrug those things off like taking off a coat?

How would someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given a new nature have the desire to return to sin?

It's up to the believer, not the Holy Spirit.

The Bible says that it's the role of the Holy Spirit to call, regenerate, and sanctify, and that the unregenerate man cannot do these things.

So why should I believe your ideas over those of the Bible?

 

[samir]

So, the Bible's description of regeneration and the new nature is wrong? That a person can just shrug those things off like taking off a coat?

How would someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given a new nature have the desire to return to sin?



The Bible says that it's the role of the Holy Spirit to call, regenerate, and sanctify, and that the unregenerate man cannot do these things.

So why should I believe your ideas over those of the Bible?

Scripture is clear that a believer can choose to reject the gifts he has received. The OP provided a long list of verses that clearly teach this that no one has been able to refute. If you want to reject those verses because they don't feel right to you that's your decision but why should I believe your opinions based on your feelings instead of the clear teaching of scripture?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Maybe you think God will render eternal life to you if you are self-seeking and do not obey the truth. Again, you may be hoping God does render eternal life to those who do not continue in doing good.

Ahhh! One of the major works gospel players heard from. Other's include Jason0047, and ZacharyB.

The following is particularly for them as paraphrased from a post of mine from another thread.

I may well seem to be an idiot to those who believe in salvation by works.

But this idiot simply sees them as teaching a false gospel which is not good news at all.

To me the scriptures are very clear.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:27-29.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:35-39

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

"Who are kept by the power of God . . ." I Peter 1:5

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Romans 11:29

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day." John 6:39"

"In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

I may well seem to them to be an idiot with a very simple faith. But all I can say to that is that --- "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

If I preach again to them the simple gospel of Jesus Christ - it is only because I am concerned for their salvation.

" You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

" I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:6-9

"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?" Galatians 3:3-4

I would that they could become a simple idiot such as I.

I implore them, as I always do on these gospel plus works threads - repent of this gospel of works that you preach and cast all of your cares on Him because He cares for you.

All of your righteousness is like filthy rags to God when it comes to what it takes to be saved.

Trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope for salvation and you will be saved.

If the Lord reveals the errors in your thinking to you and you wish to pray with a believer to receive Christ as your Savior - I am available, off the record via private message, to talk to and to pray with.

 

[South Bound]

Scripture is clear that a believer can choose to reject the gifts he has received.

Actually, it says just the opposite: that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The OP provided a long list of verses that clearly teach this that no one has been able to refute.

Actually, many of us have refuted them, the others, in numerous threads, apparently.

If you want to reject those verses because they don't feel right to you that's your decision but why should I believe your opinions based on your feelings instead of the clear teaching of scripture?

That's the difference. Nobody's asking you to believe my opinions. I'm just trying to explain to you what the Bible says. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

 

[EmSw]

Ahhh! One of the major works gospel players heard from. Other's include Jason0047, and ZacharyB.

The following is particularly for them as paraphrased from a post of mine from another thread.

I may well seem to be an idiot to those who believe in salvation by works.

But this idiot simply sees them as teaching a false gospel which is not good news at all.

To me the scriptures are very clear.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:27-29.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:35-39

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

"Who are kept by the power of God . . ." I Peter 1:5

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Romans 11:29

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day." John 6:39"

"In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

I may well seem to them to be an idiot with a very simple faith. But all I can say to that is that --- "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

If I preach again to them the simple gospel of Jesus Christ - it is only because I am concerned for their salvation.

" You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

" I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:6-9

"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?" Galatians 3:3-4

I would that they could become a simple idiot such as I.

I implore them, as I always do on these gospel plus works threads - repent of this gospel of works that you preach and cast all of your cares on Him because He cares for you.

All of your righteousness is like filthy rags to God when it comes to what it takes to be saved.

Trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope for salvation and you will be saved.

If the Lord reveals the errors in your thinking to you and you wish to pray with a believer to receive Christ as your Savior - I am available, off the record via private message, to talk to and to pray with.

First off Marvin, Jesus NEVER said to trust in His finished work on the cross. The cross was not significant in Jesus' teachings. This teaching is from one who came in his own name and many have received him.

Second, Jesus spoke of works and doing good to others, and this to inherit eternal life and be raised at the resurrection of life. Unfortunately, some do not believe these words of Jesus and yet say they believe in Him. It is the words of Jesus which will judge each of us. When Jesus said to keep the commandments and you will live, it wasn't just to fill space in the Bible. It was for those who believe in Him to believe and obey. If one doesn't obey and do this, then how is it they say they believe in Him?

If anyone, and that means anyone, preaches anything other than what Jesus spoke, then they are not His shepherd, and his followers and not His sheep. These sheep-wanna-be's do not hear Jesus' voice and follow Him; they rather hear and follow another. These followers are not working to eat the food which endures unto eternal life.

I appreciate your concern for my salvation, I really do. However, I will place all my trust in the words of Jesus, even if it means going against the grain. I have no idea, but I do hope you believe one can be saved by the words of Jesus only.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have no idea, but I do hope you believe one can be saved by the words of Jesus only.

It really depends upon which words specifically. Jesus spoke of many things, among them how to receive eternal life.

When He encouraged people to take up their cross and follow Him, it wasn't for salvation. So those who think they will be saved by taking up their cross will be in for quite a surprise. And not a pleasant one.

 

[samir]

Actually, it says just the opposite: that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

No it doesn't. Although God won't revoke or take back the gifts he has given that doesn't mean the believer can't choose to reject them. Being a Christian is a lifelong process, not a once and done event.

Actually, many of us have refuted them, the others, in numerous threads, apparently.

I must have missed all of them. The only attempts at refuting them I've seen were posters quoting other verses about faith and using those verses to try to prove other verses wrong and very creative interpretations in an attempt to subject scripture to one's man-made traditions.

Nobody's asking you to believe my opinions.

That's great. Your opinions are noted and rejected.

I'm just trying to explain to you what the Bible says.

You have to understand it first before you can explain it to others. Until you do that, you're sinning by misrepresenting God's word.

 

[EmSw]

It really depends upon which words specifically. Jesus spoke of many things, among them how to receive eternal life.

All of Jesus' words are life. The disciples and many others heard these words of life and received salvation through them. Their was no Paul around for them to read; there was no saved by grace message, there was no predestination message, and there was no gospel of death, burial, and resurrection. In fact, there would be no Calvinism today if there was no message from Paul.

When He encouraged people to take up their cross and follow Him, it wasn't for salvation. So those who think they will be saved by taking up their cross will be in for quite a surprise. And not a pleasant one.

Just think of it, many will have an unpleasant surprise waiting for them if they follow Jesus' words. Amazing what beliefs have arisen in the church today. The words of life Jesus spoke have taken a back seat to a lot of people.

 

[South Bound]

Oh, let's see, how about common sense

So, you're going by your own subjective "common sense" over the Word of God?

 

[ZacharyB]

Yes, many of those things were written to believers in the churches, but not about believers in the churches.

Are you always this rude? Didn't your parents care enough about you to teach you any manners at all?

Jesus didn't have any manners either.
People who insist they know everything (but do not) need to be shaken up!
Like the Pharisees.

 

[ZacharyB]

Verses 12-13 (of Romans 6) tell believers not to go back to living in sin which doesn't make sense if it wasn't possible.

Similarly, for example, the writer of Hebrews (writing to Hebrew believers)
talks about those who draw back to perdition,
i.e. drawing back from a saved condition obviously.

Then, he must have a huge cheek to accommodate his huge tongue
when he laughingly says, "But WE are not those type of guys, are we?"
Yeah, sure, he knows the future if any of them will fall way, etc.
... many and LOLs.

 

[South Bound]

Jesus didn't have any manners either.
People who insist they know everything (but do not) need to be shaken up!
Like the Pharisees.

...says the guy who believes his own subjective "common sense" is a better standard than God's Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of Jesus' words are life. The disciples and many others heard these words of life and received salvation through them. Their was no Paul around for them to read; there was no saved by grace message, there was no predestination message, and there was no gospel of death, burial, and resurrection. In fact, there would be no Calvinism today if there was no message from Paul.

Please don't put the yoke of Calvinism on Paul. It didn't come from him, but from a guy named Calvin. Paul taught that Christ died for ALL. And that perseverance is a command, not an automatic response of some, called the frozen chosen.

However, your way over-generalized views of Jesus' words is noteworthy. From such a broad view, one can nearly come up with any kind of theology they want to create. Slick.

Just think of it, many will have an unpleasant surprise waiting for them if they follow Jesus' words.

I'll spell it out for you. If people follow the teaching of Jesus on what it means to be His disciple, they will be sorely disappointed at the judgment. Because no one is saved by being His disciple. They are saved by placing their trust in Him alone for salvation.

Jesus taught a lot of things. Some were in reference to salvation (saving faith), some in reference to how one is to live their life (lifestyle faith). Mixing them up will result in people not getting saved.

 

[South Bound]

Please don't put the yoke of Calvinism on Paul. It didn't come from him, but from a guy named Calvin.

Actually, the Reformed doctrines commonly known as "Calvinism" didn't originate with Calvin.

Paul taught that Christ died for ALL.

Actually, Paul wasn't a universalist. He taught that Christ died for the elect. So did Jesus when He said, "I lay down My life for the sheep".

And that perseverance is a command, not an automatic response of some, called the frozen chosen.

Perseverance is a command. However, we do not persevere by our own strength, but because we are preserved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, the Reformed doctrines commonly known as "Calvinism" didn't originate with Calvin.

And it didn't originate in the Scriptures.

Actually, Paul wasn't a universalist.

Interesting that nearly every Calvinist defaults to the idea that if Christ died for all, then all are saved. The Bible does teach that Christ died for everyone, but that only those who believe will be saved. I wonder why Calvinists seem unable to understand that view.

He taught that Christ died for the elect. So did Jesus when He said, "I lay down My life for the sheep".

A careful study of John 10 will show that Jesus made mention of "My sheep", "others of Mine", "not of My sheep", and "the sheep".

So, by saying He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to all sheep. And there is no mention of goats in John 10. Only sheep.

Perseverance is a command. However, we do not persevere by our own strength, but because we are preserved.

Being preserved (eternal security) and perseverance are 2 separate and different concepts. Glad to see that it seems that is understood.

 

[South Bound]

And it didn't originate in the Scriptures.

Actually, it did.

Interesting that nearly every Calvinist defaults to the idea that if Christ died for all, then all are saved. The Bible does teach that Christ died for everyone, but that only those who believe will be saved. I wonder why Calvinists seem unable to understand that view.

So, Christ's death did not save all it was meant to save?

A careful study of John 10 will show that Jesus made mention of "My sheep", "others of Mine", "not of My sheep", and "the sheep".

Yes, and this refers to Gentiles, not the non-elect.

So, by saying He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to all sheep.

Correct. And the elect are the sheep. If Jesus is talking about the Arminian view, then how can they be His sheep before they believe?

Being preserved (eternal security) and perseverance are 2 separate and different concepts. Glad to see that it seems that is understood.

You can drop the condescension, princess. Nobody said they're the same thing.