Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[ZacharyB]

If scriptures are correct, then no man, not even yourself, can take you out of God's hand.

Most of us have agreed this means that ...
no man other than yourself can take you out of God's hand.

 

[sdowney717]

I believe that if the world don't end tonight, we'll see another day, but that don't mean I'm saved either.

Then there are two more passages which disagree with your assessment too.

Jesus said:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -Jn. 10:27 (KJV)

Did those of the ones in Mt. 13 who you say "believed" and thus saved, follow after Him, or did they just follow a little while?

Evidently, those who did not continue, were not saved to begin with.

We also find:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

And then, what did Paul say:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." -Rom. 10:9-10 (KJV)

I don't know about you, but scriptures make it plain that "confession" is an essential part of salvation.



Well then, who is stronger?

Man, or God?

Scriptures say:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

So if man is able to lose his salvation, then he has taken himself out of God's hand, thus making him stronger than God.

If scriptures are correct, then no man, not even yourself, can take you out of God's hand.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The people Jesus tells this too, about none being able to take them away from God and Him, speaks to His power at work in their lives. It is never been the idea that they would remove themselves from God or desire that, that was not the theme. Jesus is telling them they are secure in Him in their relationship position and no one can alter that, it is ordained of God that they are what they are. Since they do not desire to flee from Christ, it is not on their mind to depart from Christ on their own initiative. Since God actually transforms you in the spiritual realm, by putting His thoughts into your mind and His laws into your heart, and you are born of God, as part of the New Covenant Christ establishes in your life, you wont be desiring to depart from Christ. It would be far from your mind, your desire is to go and be with Christ.

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

People continually add in their own idea, that they can take themselves from God's hands. They ignore this, that the born of God are not their own, they are bought with the blood of Christ, and God owns them 100%. Recall what happened to Jonah who tried to flee from God.

Jonah 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Jonah’s Disobedience
1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me.” 3 But Jonah arose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.
............
12 And he said to them, “Pick me up and throw me into the sea; then the sea will become calm for you. For I know that this great tempest is because of me.”

13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to return to land, but they could not, for the sea continued to grow more tempestuous against them. 14 Therefore they cried out to the Lord and said, “We pray, O Lord, please do not let us perish for this man’s life, and do not charge us with innocent blood; for You, O Lord, have done as it pleased You.” 15 So they picked up Jonah and threw him into the sea, and the sea ceased from its raging. 16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice to the Lord and took vows.
...................

Psalm 139New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Most of us have agreed this means that ...
no man other than yourself can take you out of God's hand.

Not hardly "most of us".

In fact, the phrase "no man" really means no one, or no person.

Therefore, those who consider themselves 'persons' are also included in John 10:28.

And, on the flipside, there are NO verses that say that one can remove themself from God's hand.

Now, if those who are not a 'person', can they remove themselves from God's hand?

Well, Paul answered that question in Rom 8:38-39 -
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

iow, even those who might try to claim that believers are not 'persons' but some other kind of created thing don't have a leg to stand on.

Bottom line: salvation is forever. No one can lose it. The Bible does not say so.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

If you can get into Heaven by judging yourself saved, and there is no Guard at the door then all Christians will surely enter Heaven.

But if there is a Guard at the door of Heaven, you might have issues. The Guard might not agree on your interpretation of yourself being saved or your faith.

OSAS is just leaven. Trust in the Word of God wholly, not just bits here and there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you can get into Heaven by judging yourself saved, and there is no Guard at the door then all Christians will surely enter Heaven.

But if there is a Guard at the door of Heaven, you might have issues. The Guard might not agree on your interpretation of yourself being saved or your faith.

What Scripture would lead one to this idea?

OSAS is just leaven.

Meaning...eternal security is a sinful idea??

Trust in the Word of God wholly, not just bits here and there.

God's Word is clear enough. The thread entitled "conditional vs eternal security" contains 5 points, which are 5 different passages that teach eternal security.

Those who don't believe in eternal security are invited to address each of the 5 points and explain exactly what those passage do teach then.

I would certainly appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[DeaconDean]

What do you mean "who you say "believed"? Luke recorded what Jesus SAID. Why isn't that enough?

Was Luke among the disciples?

I think not.

Unless the scriptures are wrong, was he not a companion of Paul?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

There is nothing of your so-called "evidence" here. All you've done is mix and match different texts and contexts in trying to make a point.

But Luke 8:12 and 13 stand. From v.12, "lest they believe and be saved". From v.13, they believed for a while. There isn't anything in the parable to indicate that soil #2 wasn't saved, or lost their salvation.

Matthew recorded that you would know them by their works.

I see none, rather, scripture don't record any.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I've no idea how any of this relates to what I posted.

You said:

" He actually said they believed."

The demons believe, and tremble.

Does that mean they are saved too?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

This is not related to the discussion in any way.

It bears direct relation to it.

And to Matt. 13.

If those who believed would have continued, them I would agree they were saved.

But John makes it clear they didn't, so they weren't.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

"Which is WHY I reject the notion that one can lose salvation."

Then why are you taking me to task?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Most of us have agreed this means that ...
no man other than yourself can take you out of God's hand.

Then you say that man is stronger than God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

What Scripture would lead one to this idea?

Common sense. If a night club has bouncers, what do think Heaven will have?

Parable of banquet feast and 10 virgins.

Meaning...eternal security is a sinful idea??

Yes, a trick to get you to let your guard down so you can appear before God empty handed and then the devil will have a good laugh at your expense. "Trick you, S.u.c.k.e.r."

God's Word is clear enough. The thread entitled "conditional vs eternal security" contains 5 points, which are 5 different passages that teach eternal security.

Those who don't believe in eternal security are invited to address each of the 5 points and explain exactly what those passage do teach then.

Sorry, can't do. Salvation is in the Whole of God's Word, not 5 passages.

If you take 5 passages of the Bible as your Saved Doctrine, all I can say is Good Luck when you rock up at Heaven's Gate.

 

[sdowney717]

The Matthew 6:33 verse tells us about seeking God's righteousness, not our own!
That would be of Christ.
People continue to add on to the clear and concise Word, which is Satanic. What they are really saying is to seek your own righteousness with God, not the righteousness that comes by faith in Christ. Well your going to be super sorry someday!

Looking up His righteousness
Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Romans 3:26
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:5
[ David Celebrates the Same Truth ] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 4:13
[ The Promise Granted Through Faith ] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

2 Corinthians 9:9
As it is written: “He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.”

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

2 Timothy 4:8
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Peter tells 'us' (if your really born of God), your are DEAD to sins. Do you believe this? Because there are other verses teaching this as well.
I think many readers have not grasped the import of these verses. They pursue a doctrine of perfection of their own righteousness, not the things of Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"What do you mean "who you say "believed"? Luke recorded what Jesus SAID. Why isn't that enough?"

Was Luke among the disciples?

I think not.

Unless the scriptures are wrong, was he not a companion of Paul?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Here's the issue. It seems you took issue with my statement that the second soil believed. And you put the word 'believed' in quotes, as if that was just my opinion. Well, the BIBLE, if that matters, SAYS that they believed.

And whether Luke was among the disciples or a companion of Paul makes no difference.

Do you believe the Bible is inerrant? Inspired by God?

If you do, your points are meaningless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"There is nothing of your so-called "evidence" here. All you've done is mix and match different texts and contexts in trying to make a point.

But Luke 8:12 and 13 stand. From v.12, "lest they believe and be saved". From v.13, they believed for a while. There isn't anything in the parable to indicate that soil #2 wasn't saved, or lost their salvation."

Matthew recorded that you would know them by their works.

How about a bit of context, ok? The comment about knowing them by their works was NOT in context of any of the parables recorded by Jesus. In fact, the statement is in context of FALSE TEACHERS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said:

" He actually said they believed."

The demons believe, and tremble.

Does that mean they are saved too?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Once again, let's look at context. In James 2:19, what is it that the demons believe? That God is One. Is that saving faith? Of course not. Not even close.

Even the unbelieving Jewish Pharisees believed that God is One. And they weren't saved.

Jesus told us that the second soil believed for a while. That is exactly what Luke 8:13 says. Either believe it or reject it. Your call.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What Scripture would lead one to this idea?

Common sense. If a night club has bouncers, what do think Heaven will have?

Parable of banquet feast and 10 virgins.

Meaning...eternal security is a sinful idea??

Yes, a trick to get you to let your guard down so you can appear before God empty handed and then the devil will have a good laugh at your expense. "Trick you, S.u.c.k.e.r."

God's Word is clear enough. The thread entitled "conditional vs eternal security" contains 5 points, which are 5 different passages that teach eternal security.

Those who don't believe in eternal security are invited to address each of the 5 points and explain exactly what those passage do teach then.

Sorry, can't do. Salvation is in the Whole of God's Word, not 5 passages.

If you take 5 passages of the Bible as your Saved Doctrine, all I can say is Good Luck when you rock up at Heaven's Gate.

Well, this is about as much as those who believe that God takes back His gift of salvation can do.

All I asked is for someone who doesn't believe in eternal security to explain what the 5 passages are teaching.

Was that too difficult to do?

It seems to me that those who don't believe in eternal security don't even want to deal with any passages that are given as teaching eternal security.

But, all those 5 passages DO teach something. I wonder why those who don't believe in eternal security seem uninterested in what they do teach.

Paul wrote that ALL Scripture is God breathed and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

But, apparently, some just aren't interested in ALL Scripture.

So your weak excuse for not dealing with the 5 passages reveals the condition of your own position.

 

[ZacharyB]

But, apparently, some just aren't interested in ALL Scripture.

ALL of the NT Scriptures together lead me to this doctrine:

True saving faith is demonstrated by loving God enough to obey Him!

Yes, we're not robots ... we have free-will to co-operate with God, or not.

belief-faith-trust-love-obedience ... try it, you might like it.

 

[brotherjerry]

True saving faith is demonstrated by loving God enough to obey Him!

I would not disagree with this statement at all. It is what the Bible says...that the faith that was enough to save us will be shown to the world through our obedience to God. What the Bible does NOT teach is that our obedience to God is what saves us. "By faith you are saved, not by works". No one works themselves into security with God. Only God makes us secure and that is through faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

ALL of the NT Scriptures together lead me to this doctrine:

True saving faith is demonstrated by loving God enough to obey Him!

Yes, we're not robots ... we have free-will to co-operate with God, or not.

belief-faith-trust-love-obedience ... try it, you might like it.

Of course saving faith is demonstrated by loving God and obeying Him. But such demonstration doesn't save, nor does it prove one is saved.

Consider the Jewish Pharisees. They were considered highly moral, they kept the Law. Yet, they were unsaved. They rejected the Messiah, all w/o excuse.

Impressive morality can be demonstrated by atheists.

You've never faced the fact that King Saul, who was killed by God per 1 Chron 10:13,14 for consulting a medium, was told by Samuel that he (Saul) would join him (Samuel) the next day.

We all know that Samuel went to Paradise after he died, as he was a faithful prophet of God. And yet, Saul would join him after he died, per 1 Sam 28:19.

This proves that a believer can fail to the point of being killed by God and still go to heaven.

Your view has been refuted repeatedly.