Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[Albion]

IMO, the Bible teaches both ... and that's the problem!
IMO, both groups must be reconciled ... and I believe I've done that.

Well, had you done that, or if it were possible, I wouldn't have written what I did.

 

[Hieronymus]

Even though you seem to disagree, i agree with all of you.

 

[ZacharyB]

Well, had you done that, or if it were possible, I wouldn't have written what I did.

I have done it in the past, and will do it again.
Plus, you're saying it is not possible to reconcile them!

 

[Albion]

I have done it in the past, and will do it again.
Plus, you're saying it is not possible to reconcile them!

I didn't say that.

I said that the verses which seem to support "OSAS" are there and ought not to be overlooked or ignored in favor of explaining how one interprets the verses that are preferred by opponents of Eternal Security.

 

[ZacharyB]

Albion ... IMO, anyone reading it would surmise that
you were saying it is not possible to reconcile them.
Question: Do you ever admit making an error?

 

[Albion]

Albion ... IMO, anyone reading it would surmise that
you were saying it is not possible to reconcile them.
Question: Do you ever admit making an error?

Maybe you need to start an online poll, then. I'm just kidding about that.

You claimed, without any equivocation, that I said something I did not. And when I pointed out that this was not something I said, you simply replied that it's your opinion. So unless you explain WHY you leaped to your conclusion, there's not much that anyone can work from in setting you straight, is there?

What I DID say was this: "...the verses which seem to support 'OSAS' are there and ought not to be overlooked or ignored in favor of explaining how one interprets the verses that are preferred by opponents...." How does that sound to you like someone is saying that it's not possible to reconcile them?"

 

[brotherjerry]

But there is still nothing in this about a "born-again", "regenerated" sinner, losing their "eternal salvation."



Maybe not on your side of the country, but it is in Baptist churches here in No. Carolina.

John the Baptist taught repentance.

Jesus Christ taught repentance.

Paul taught repentance.

I teach repentance.

God Bless

Till all are one.

See there ya go Deacon....North Carolina is East of the Mississippi...you ain't in the West

 

[DeaconDean]

You get an A+ for originality! ... No one else has ever suggested that
Paul was NOT writing to born-again believers in the Roman churches!

Please point out to me where I said that.

The proof that he was ... was that he said they WERE slaves to sin before, etc.
ALL non true believers ARE slaves to sin, etc.

Nobody argues against that.
<staff edit>

When y'all gonna enter into the real world of NT Christianity
where der is NO false doctrines of any kind?
When? 'Cause da time is almost up!

Whoever said there wasn't.

John wrote that "false Christs" would rise, and indeed already were. And that was 2000 years ago.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

IMO, the Bible teaches both ... and that's the problem!
IMO, both groups must be reconciled ... and I believe I've done that.

Not yet.

Matthew 13 and the parable of the sower teaches us that there are those who would come, make a confession and leave. Then there are ones who come and make a confession and continue for a little while then leave. And then there are one who come and persevere. They are the truly saved.

I ask this question: Do you believe the scriptures are the words of God for man?

Do you believe the Apostles wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

If God predestined us to be His sons, then that is what will happen.
For there are only sons of the kingdom (His wheat), and sons of the devil. (the tares)

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1 Thessalonians 5:5
You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Hebrews 2:10
[ Bringing Many Sons to Glory ] For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Galatians 3:26
[ Sons and Heirs ] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth HisSon, born of a woman, born under the law,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Galatians 4:5
to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of HisSon into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Galatians 4:7
Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[ZacharyB]

ZB:
IMO, both groups must be reconciled ... and I believe I've done that.

Not yet.

You're right ... not in this thread ... can't put it in every thread.

 

[ZacharyB]

If God predestined us to be His sons, then that is what will happen.
For there are only sons of the kingdom (His wheat), and sons of the devil. (the tares)

Butski, you don't differentiate who the "us" are!
The Lord keeps this info mostly to Himself.
Dat's the whole point of everything.
Many tink they're part of the "us", but alas are not.

Whether OSAS is true or not true,
the Lord has sent me to point out the many warning passages.
And that's what I've been doing.

Note: most believers today will not even admit that they exist.
IMO, this amounts to UNBELIEF ... UNBELIEF in the Scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please note: this does not include Jesus’ warnings to everyone in the 4 Gospels!

No OSAS for Christians who are slaves of sin (who habitually practice sin)
Romans 6:16-23 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves)
of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …" --- 3 dire warnings in 8 verses!
Romans 8:13-14 • "For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
Through the help of the Holy Spirit, we must put to death the sinful nature.
This, of course, is all part of walking on Jesus’ narrow path (Matthew 7:13-14).
IMO, you will make it to heaven, IF you sincerely repent of (forsake) your sins!

No OSAS for Christians who do not overcome all sins of every type
Revelation 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he will be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Jesus is talking about anyone who is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner!
Revelation 3:5 • “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of (Eternal) Life …”
Revelation 3:21 • “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
Jesus did not overcome by believing He was/is the Son of God (re: 1 John 5:5).

No OSAS for Christians who do not sow and live according to the Spirit
Galatians 6:7-8 • “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows,
that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Romans 8:5-6 • "For those who LIVE according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who LIVE according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally-minded is death, but to be spiritually-minded is life and peace.”
Decide for yourself: Are these passages contrasting eternal death with eternal life?

No OSAS for Christians who do not practice righteousness
1 John 3:7 • “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous”
The Christian who does not practice righteousness is not righteous in God’s eyes!

No OSAS for Christians who do not love and obey Jesus
John 14:15-23 • “If you love Me, keep (obey) My commandments …
He who has My commandments and keeps (obeys) them, it is he who loves Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word …”
Good question: Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?
Hebrews 5:9 • “He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Romans 6:16 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin
leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …”
James 1:12-15 • Those who endure the temptations to sin “will receive the
crown of (eternal) life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

No OSAS for Christians who draw back, fall away, do not endure in the faith, etc.
Here are just a few of those famous “conditional passages” …
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 • “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel … by which you are
saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.”
2 Corinthians 13:5 • “Examine yourself to see IF you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.”
Hebrews 3:14 • “For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning
of our confidence steadfast to the end.”
1 Timothy 5:16 • “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them,
for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Does this remind you of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)?
Or Paul’s concern that after preaching to others he might be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)?
Hebrews 10:36-39 • “ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but IF anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
In this last part, Paul displays his usual tactful method of softening his dire warnings
with encouragement and exhortation, and he is hopeful that none of them fall away!
Revelation 2:10 • “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.”
The fun part about this is: “the crown of life” is eternal life! … Research it for yourself,
and note James 1:12-15 … he warns to not be deceived: sin brings forth eternal death.

No OSAS for Christians who don’t do what is required of them
1 Timothy 6:9-19 • “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good,
that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for them-
selves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
If you are a Christian who desires to be rich, beware of the possible consequences!
IMO, the “good foundation for the time to come” refers to when Christians are judged.
Jude 20-21 • “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Our eternal life depends on Jesus’ mercy, which depends on us!
So, let us all agree: “Faith without works is dead (useless)” (James 2:20)

No OSAS for Christians who do not inherit (enter) the kingdom of God
First, these 2 passages prove that “the kingdom of God” is analogous to heaven …
Mark 9:47 • “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter
the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire”
Matthew 25:34-46 • “Come, you (the righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom
prepared for you from the foundation of the world … And these (the unrighteous)
will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The unrighteous (e.g. habitual sinners) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God …
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 • “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit
the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
There are several “sin lists” which keep Christians out of the kingdom and heaven.

Note: I have not included in the above Jesus’ many warnings in the 4 Gospels.

Once again, there is nothing here about loss of salvation. That has to be assumed by the reader.

But there's a very much better understanding of all the warnings in Scripture, including all the warnings of Jesus in the 4 gospels. The warnings are about loss of future reward in eternity.

None of the warning passages specifically says that one can lose salvation or eternal life, and as well, none of them specifically mention reward that will be lost. But the concept of earning reward is all over the NT. So it makes much more sense to understand warnings as warning against loss of eternal reward, not loss of salvation.

In fact, the thread "eternal vs conditional security" provides clear verses on the security of every believer, regardless of how they live. None of those passages have been refuted by exegesis or explained what else they are teaching.

But, most clearly, the bottom line is this: eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23 says so.

And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

And Paul never excluded eternal life from the irrevocable gifts. In fact, there is no evidence in Scripture that any of God's gifts are revokable.

Besides eternal life, justification and salvation are specifically described as gifts. And there are no verses that exclude either of them from the irrevocable gifts.

So all discussion regarding loss of salvation is unbiblical.

 

[ZacharyB]

God has provided sufficient NT passages of obvious clarity ...
to those who have an OPEN mind and heart for the Truth ...

FREE-WILL CHOICE passages: eternal life vs. eternal death
CONDITIONAL "IF" passages: eternal life vs. eternal death

Another aspect to understand is: The Author of the NT is a Genius!
He designed some spiritual Truths to be discerned only though the Spirit,
i.e. some deeper Truths are only to be understood through spiritual revelation.
God had His reasons for this,
e.g. He did not wish to discourage any of His spiritual babes in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have done it in the past, and will do it again.
Plus, you're saying it is not possible to reconcile them!

No, it meant that the Bible does NOT teach "both". If that were so, the Bible is internally contradicted and we cannot have any confidence in the Bible.

But, God is perfect, and so is His Word. It is NOT internally contradicted in any way.

Those who accept such a view are very confused.

If 2 completely opposite views are found in the Bible, then NOTHING matters. There is no truth then. Why isn't that clear?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say that.

I said that the verses which seem to support "OSAS" are there and ought not to be overlooked or ignored in favor of explaining how one interprets the verses that are preferred by opponents of Eternal Security.

That is the problem with those who hold to the loss of salvation view. When faced with passages that others understand as OSAS, they simply dismiss or ignore. They do not have any kind of explanation for what they do teach, if not eternal security.

The thread "conditional vs eternal security" poses just that issue. 5 passages are presented that I believe teach eternal security. Where are the explanations of these passages teaching something else from the LOS side?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not yet.

Matthew 13 and the parable of the sower teaches us that there are those who would come, make a confession and leave. Then there are ones who come and make a confession and continue for a little while then leave.

Nope. Compare with the parable in Luke 8:13 - “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus didn't say anything about "making a confession". He actually said they believed. And the previous verse makes clear that those who do believe are saved: “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

And then there are one who come and persevere. They are the truly saved.

Those who believe are saved.

I ask this question: Do you believe the scriptures are the words of God for man?

Great question!

Do you believe the Apostles wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them to?

Another great question! The answer to both is a resounding YES.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Define Saved.

 

[DeaconDean]

Nope. Compare with the parable in Luke 8:13 - “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus didn't say anything about "making a confession". He actually said they believed. And the previous verse makes clear that those who do believe are saved: “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

I believe that if the world don't end tonight, we'll see another day, but that don't mean I'm saved either.

Then there are two more passages which disagree with your assessment too.

Jesus said:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -Jn. 10:27 (KJV)

Did those of the ones in Mt. 13 who you say "believed" and thus saved, follow after Him, or did they just follow a little while?

Evidently, those who did not continue, were not saved to begin with.

We also find:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

And then, what did Paul say:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." -Rom. 10:9-10 (KJV)

I don't know about you, but scriptures make it plain that "confession" is an essential part of salvation.

Another great question! The answer to both is a resounding YES.

Well then, who is stronger?

Man, or God?

Scriptures say:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

So if man is able to lose his salvation, then he has taken himself out of God's hand, thus making him stronger than God.

If scriptures are correct, then no man, not even yourself, can take you out of God's hand.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe that if the world don't end tonight, we'll see another day, but that don't mean I'm saved either.

I've no idea how any of this relates to what I posted.

Then there are two more passages which disagree with your assessment too.

Jesus said:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -Jn. 10:27 (KJV)

Did those of the ones in Mt. 13 who you say "believed" and thus saved, follow after Him, or did they just follow a little while?

What do you mean "who you say "believed"? Luke recorded what Jesus SAID. Why isn't that enough?

Evidently, those who did not continue, were not saved to begin with.

There is nothing of your so-called "evidence" here. All you've done is mix and match different texts and contexts in trying to make a point.

But Luke 8:12 and 13 stand. From v.12, "lest they believe and be saved". From v.13, they believed for a while. There isn't anything in the parable to indicate that soil #2 wasn't saved, or lost their salvation.

We also find:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

This is not related to the discussion in any way.

And then, what did Paul say:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." -Rom. 10:9-10 (KJV)

I don't know about you, but scriptures make it plain that "confession" is an essential part of salvation.

So then, Paul lied to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved???

Well then, who is stronger?

We all know the answer.

Man, or God?

Scriptures say:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

So if man is able to lose his salvation, then he has taken himself out of God's hand, thus making him stronger than God.

Which is WHY I reject the notion that one can lose salvation.

If scriptures are correct, then no man, not even yourself, can take you out of God's hand.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I totally agree. Scripture teaches eternal security.