Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[Albion]

Of course saving faith is demonstrated by loving God and obeying Him. But such demonstration doesn't save, nor does it prove one is saved.

That's pretty much all that needs to be understood.

 

[Marvin Knox]

A denial of the doctrine of eternal security demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of not only the mechanics of salvation but the very reason for salvation.

Read through the various threads having to do with this doctrine in some way and you will observe the same players participating and putting their false views out on the internet over and over again.

They rely on their own works either to get saved or to stay saved.

It's the demonstrated difference between those who have rested completely on the finished work of Christ at Calvary as their only hope of salvation (those with faith in the gospel) and those who are depending on their own works to add to that partial work (the preachers of a false gospel).

It's an easy read concerning those who have been saved and those who are hoping to perhaps be saved someday if they perform well enough in this life.

Observe and note. You will never get a better picture of true faith vs. false Christianity than you will see in the soteriology sub-forum of this forum.

 

[EmSw]

A denial of the doctrine of eternal security demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of not only the mechanics of salvation but the very reason for salvation.

Read through the various threads having to do with this doctrine in some way and you will observe the same players participating and putting their false views out on the internet over and over again.

They rely on their own works either to get saved or to stay saved.

It's the demonstrated difference between those who have rested completely on the finished work of Christ at Calvary as their only hope of salvation (those with faith in the gospel) and those who are depending on their own works to add to that partial work (the preachers of a false gospel).

It's an easy read concerning those who have been saved and those who are hoping to perhaps be saved someday if they perform well enough in this life.

Observe and note. You will never get a better picture of true faith vs. false Christianity than you will see on in the soteriology sub-forum of this forum.

I guess you are hoping Jesus will forget His words in John 5:28, 29.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Maybe you are telling us you can come forth to the resurrection of life without doing good. Maybe you think doing evil will hopefully get you to the resurrection of life.

If Jesus words are a false Christianity, then you are saying Jesus is a false prophet.

Maybe you are hoping Paul's words in Romans 2 are just a fairy tale.

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Maybe you think God will render eternal life to you if you are self-seeking and do not obey the truth. Again, you may be hoping God does render eternal life to those who do not continue in doing good.

 

[ZacharyB]

Maybe you are hoping Paul's words in Romans 2 are just a fairy tale.

Not maybe ... All OSASers do hope that all of the dire warnings
about losing salvation are just a fairy tale
... that is, if they can actually understand what they are reading.

Those who are deceived spiritually must be doing some hoping also
... again, if they understand what they're reading!

A poifect example is Romans 6 ... who understands what Paul is saying?
Not the dumbed-down American public, that's for sure!

A free synopsis of Romans 6 follows ...
True believers NO longer have to be slaves of sin!
So, they need to choose NOT to be slaves of sin!
Instead, they need to choose to be slaves of obedience, righteousness, and God.
If not, their habitual unrepentant sinning will result in their eternal deaths.
But, for the good little boys 'n gals, God's free gift to them is eternal life.
This is so incredibly impossible for man to really earn, it has to be a gift.
But, man does have his part to play ...
... love God and do his best to obey and repent of his sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess you are hoping Jesus will forget His words in John 5:28, 29.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Maybe you are telling us you can come forth to the resurrection of life without doing good. Maybe you think doing evil will hopefully get you to the resurrection of life.

It should be clear to serious students of the Word that "doing good" here is a reference to placing one's faith in Christ, since that is very clearly taught throughout Scripture.

In fact, Scripture also teaches that one's works or deeds will NOT save them.

If Jesus words are a false Christianity, then you are saying Jesus is a false prophet.

No, one must just understand what He meant. And understand all the rest of Scripture.

Maybe you are hoping Paul's words in Romans 2 are just a fairy tale.

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Maybe you think God will render eternal life to you if you are self-seeking and do not obey the truth. Again, you may be hoping God does render eternal life to those who do not continue in doing good.

Paul actually refuted any idea that what he wrote in Rom 2:6-8 can be fulfilled by what he wrote in Rom 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

How is that not clear?

Then, in Rom 5:1 Paul taught how one IS justified: Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[EmSw]

It should be clear to serious students of the Word that "doing good" here is a reference to placing one's faith in Christ, since that is very clearly taught throughout Scripture.

In fact, Scripture also teaches that one's works or deeds will NOT save them.

You are all over the map. First you say doing good (a deed) refers to placing faith in Christ. Then out of the other side of your mouth, you say no works or deeds will save a person. Maybe even you can see your mixed-up belief.

No, one must just understand what He meant. And understand all the rest of Scripture.

Is your understanding better than others?

Paul actually refuted any idea that what he wrote in Rom 2:6-8 can be fulfilled by what he wrote in Rom 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

How is that not clear?

Then, in Rom 5:1 Paul taught how one IS justified: Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

So you are saying Paul refuted his own writings. Lovely FG2. Let me say, it will be fulfilled despite your objection. God will give eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are all over the map. First you say doing good (a deed) refers to placing faith in Christ. Then out of the other side of your mouth, you say no works or deeds will save a person. Maybe even you can see your mixed-up belief.

Why doesn't context seem to matter to you? Only those who actually are all over the map would make such a mistake. There is no reason to simply force all words to mean exactly the same thing regardless of context. It is ALWAYS context that determines the meanings of words.

So you are saying Paul refuted his own writings.

What a weird idea. Of course I didn't. How do you reconcile Rom 2:6-8 with Rom 3:20?

Let me say, it will be fulfilled despite your objection. God will give eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good.

OK. Then Christ died for absolutely NOTHING. What a waste, if that were true.

But He didn't die for nothing. He died for the sins of the world. If just "doing good" could save, then His death or sins was a waste of time.

 

[DeepWater]

Can you be unborn again?

When God saved you, did He know at that time you would sin later, many times?
Did God know that you would commit suicide? (many Christians did this today).
Did God know that you might have some horrible crisis after you were saved, that would cause you to hate Jesus, God, and Christianity, till the day you died?
Did God save you anyway?
Why would He do that, if He knew that later your theory that you can "lose it" for whatever reason you think you can, were true?
Wouldn't that be stupid?
Is God stupid?
>Think<

If the unpardonable sin is to die refusing to allow God to save you (Christ Rejector), then if you die saved, are you saved?

How many times does Jesus have to die on a Cross for you to become Born Again so that it happens?

Being that all your sins have been given to Christ..... who has died for them all,..... are there any left if he died for them all?

If the knowledge of Sin is created by the fact of the Law, and Grace has now taken away the Law's ability to judge you because of the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, then why do you not understand this?
Is it your Pastors fault, your churches fault, or yours?

 

[MWood]

Please note: this does not include Jesus’ warnings to everyone in the 4 Gospels!

No OSAS for Christians who are slaves of sin (who habitually practice sin)
Romans 6:16-23 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves)
of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …" --- 3 dire warnings in 8 verses!
Romans 8:13-14 • "For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
Through the help of the Holy Spirit, we must put to death the sinful nature.
This, of course, is all part of walking on Jesus’ narrow path (Matthew 7:13-14).
IMO, you will make it to heaven, IF you sincerely repent of (forsake) your sins!

No OSAS for Christians who do not overcome all sins of every type
Revelation 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he will be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Jesus is talking about anyone who is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner!
Revelation 3:5 • “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of (Eternal) Life …”
Revelation 3:21 • “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
Jesus did not overcome by believing He was/is the Son of God (re: 1 John 5:5).

No OSAS for Christians who do not sow and live according to the Spirit
Galatians 6:7-8 • “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows,
that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Romans 8:5-6 • "For those who LIVE according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who LIVE according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally-minded is death, but to be spiritually-minded is life and peace.”
Decide for yourself: Are these passages contrasting eternal death with eternal life?

No OSAS for Christians who do not practice righteousness
1 John 3:7 • “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous”
The Christian who does not practice righteousness is not righteous in God’s eyes!

No OSAS for Christians who do not love and obey Jesus
John 14:15-23 • “If you love Me, keep (obey) My commandments …
He who has My commandments and keeps (obeys) them, it is he who loves Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word …”
Good question: Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?
Hebrews 5:9 • “He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Romans 6:16 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin
leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …”
James 1:12-15 • Those who endure the temptations to sin “will receive the
crown of (eternal) life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

No OSAS for Christians who draw back, fall away, do not endure in the faith, etc.
Here are just a few of those famous “conditional passages” …
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 • “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel … by which you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.”
2 Corinthians 13:5 • “Examine yourself to see IF you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.”
Hebrews 3:14 • “For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning
of our confidence steadfast to the end.”
1 Timothy 5:16 • “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Does this remind you of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)?
Or Paul’s concern that after preaching to others he might be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)?
Hebrews 10:36-39 • “ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but IF anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
In this last part, Paul displays his usual tactful method of softening his dire warnings
with encouragement and exhortation, and he is hopeful that none of them fall away!
Revelation 2:10 • “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.”
The fun part about this is: “the crown of life” is eternal life! … Research it for yourself,
and note James 1:12-15 … he warns to not be deceived: sin brings forth eternal death.

No OSAS for Christians who don’t do what is required of them
1 Timothy 6:9-19 • “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good, that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
If you are a Christian who desires to be rich, beware of the possible consequences!
IMO, the “good foundation for the time to come” refers to when Christians are judged.
Jude 20-21 • “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Our eternal life depends on Jesus’ mercy, which depends on us!
So, let us all agree: “Faith without works is dead (useless)” (James 2:20)

No OSAS for Christians who do not inherit (enter) the kingdom of God
First, these 2 passages prove that “the kingdom of God” is analogous to heaven …
Mark 9:47 • “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire”
Matthew 25:34-46 • “Come, you (the righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The unrighteous (e.g. habitual sinners) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God …
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 • “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
There are several “sin lists” which keep Christians out of the kingdom and heaven.

Note: I have not included in the above Jesus’ many warnings in the 4 Gospels.

June 18 editing for formatting clarity only.

Try these verses. Explain them away. Or make them fit in with your doctrine.
John6:27, John6:37, John6:39

 

[samir]

Consider the Jewish Pharisees. They were considered highly moral, they kept the Law.

Not according to scripture. Scripture says, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Obeying the outward parts of the law that made them look good before men while ignoring the more important matters of the law is not keeping the Law. Although they appeared righteous to some men, they were not very righteous, disobeying more than they obeyed. Their level of righteousness was so deficient that Jesus said, "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20, NIV)"

 

[ZacharyB]

Try these verses. Explain them away. Or make them fit in with your doctrine.
John 6:27, John 6:37, John 6:39

Okay

 

[South Bound]

Please note: this does not include Jesus’ warnings to everyone in the 4 Gospels!

No OSAS for Christians who are slaves of sin (who habitually practice sin)
Romans 6:16-23 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves)
of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …" --- 3 dire warnings in 8 verses!
Romans 8:13-14 • "For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
Through the help of the Holy Spirit, we must put to death the sinful nature.
This, of course, is all part of walking on Jesus’ narrow path (Matthew 7:13-14).
IMO, you will make it to heaven, IF you sincerely repent of (forsake) your sins!

No OSAS for Christians who do not overcome all sins of every type
Revelation 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he will be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Jesus is talking about anyone who is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner!
Revelation 3:5 • “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of (Eternal) Life …”
Revelation 3:21 • “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
Jesus did not overcome by believing He was/is the Son of God (re: 1 John 5:5).

No OSAS for Christians who do not sow and live according to the Spirit
Galatians 6:7-8 • “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows,
that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Romans 8:5-6 • "For those who LIVE according to the flesh set their minds on the
things of the flesh, but those who LIVE according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally-minded is death, but to be spiritually-minded is life and peace.”
Decide for yourself: Are these passages contrasting eternal death with eternal life?

No OSAS for Christians who do not practice righteousness
1 John 3:7 • “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous”
The Christian who does not practice righteousness is not righteous in God’s eyes!

No OSAS for Christians who do not love and obey Jesus
John 14:15-23 • “If you love Me, keep (obey) My commandments …
He who has My commandments and keeps (obeys) them, it is he who loves Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word …”
Good question: Does anyone get to heaven who does not love Jesus?
Hebrews 5:9 • “He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Romans 6:16 • "… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin
leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness …”
James 1:12-15 • Those who endure the temptations to sin “will receive the
crown of (eternal) life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

No OSAS for Christians who draw back, fall away, do not endure in the faith, etc.
Here are just a few of those famous “conditional passages” …
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 • “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel … by which you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.”
2 Corinthians 13:5 • “Examine yourself to see IF you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.”
Hebrews 3:14 • “For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning
of our confidence steadfast to the end.”
1 Timothy 5:16 • “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Does this remind you of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)?
Or Paul’s concern that after preaching to others he might be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27)?
Hebrews 10:36-39 • “ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but IF anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
In this last part, Paul displays his usual tactful method of softening his dire warnings
with encouragement and exhortation, and he is hopeful that none of them fall away!
Revelation 2:10 • “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.”
The fun part about this is: “the crown of life” is eternal life! … Research it for yourself,
and note James 1:12-15 … he warns to not be deceived: sin brings forth eternal death.

No OSAS for Christians who don’t do what is required of them
1 Timothy 6:9-19 • “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good, that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
If you are a Christian who desires to be rich, beware of the possible consequences!
IMO, the “good foundation for the time to come” refers to when Christians are judged.
Jude 20-21 • “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Our eternal life depends on Jesus’ mercy, which depends on us!
So, let us all agree: “Faith without works is dead (useless)” (James 2:20)

No OSAS for Christians who do not inherit (enter) the kingdom of God
First, these 2 passages prove that “the kingdom of God” is analogous to heaven …
Mark 9:47 • “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire”
Matthew 25:34-46 • “Come, you (the righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The unrighteous (e.g. habitual sinners) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God …
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 • “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
There are several “sin lists” which keep Christians out of the kingdom and heaven.

Note: I have not included in the above Jesus’ many warnings in the 4 Gospels.

June 18 editing for formatting clarity only.

I hate to have to point out the obvious, but what makes you think the people who do these things are saved in the first place?

 

[South Bound]

2 days and counting ... and no response from the die-hard OSASers.
It appears that ignoring the dozens of anti-OSAS NT verses continues.

Despite your boasting, none of the verses you cited refute the Biblical doctrine of eternal security because each of the things you describe as disqualifying Christians from the Biblical doctrine of eternal security are characteristics of the unregenerate, not of those who are born again.

 

[ZacharyB]

... each of the things you describe as disqualifying Christians from the Biblical doctrine of eternal security are characteristics of the unregenerate, not of those who are born again.

All of the passages were written to believers in the churches!
Who knew a whole a lot more about everything than you do!

 

[South Bound]

All of the passages were written to believers in the churches!
Who knew a whole a lot more about everything than you do!

Yes, many of those things were written to believers in the churches, but not about believers in the churches.

Are you always this rude? Didn't your parents care enough about you to teach you any manners at all?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Consider the Jewish Pharisees. They were considered highly moral, they kept the Law."

Not according to scripture. Scripture says, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Please note what I actually said: "they were considered highly moral". I wasn't speaking about in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of moralists, much like yourself.

Yes, of course, Scripture condemned the Pharisees, but they sure weren't viewed as being immoral people. On the contrary, they were highly regarded by the people.

In fact, Jesus acknowledged the apparent righteousness of the Pharisees in Matt 5:20 - “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[FreeGrace2]

ZacharyB said: ↑
2 days and counting ... and no response from the die-hard OSASers.
It appears that ignoring the dozens of anti-OSAS NT verses continues.

Despite your boasting, none of the verses you cited refute the Biblical doctrine of eternal security because each of the things you describe as disqualifying Christians from the Biblical doctrine of eternal security are characteristics of the unregenerate, not of those who are born again.

Actually, I've explained to him every verse he's cited. He just conveniently forgot that.

otoh, what he won't do is address the 5 passages in the thread "eternal vs conditional security" and explain what they teach instead of eternal security.

Actually, it seems none of the loss of salvation group is willing to do that.

I guess when verses can't be twisted to say something other than what they so clearly do teach, they just have to ignore them.

 

[South Bound]

ZacharyB said: ↑
2 days and counting ... and no response from the die-hard OSASers.
It appears that ignoring the dozens of anti-OSAS NT verses continues.

Actually, I've explained to him every verse he's cited. He just conveniently forgot that.

otoh, what he won't do is address the 5 passages in the thread "eternal vs conditional security" and explain what they teach instead of eternal security.

Actually, it seems none of the loss of salvation group is willing to do that.

I guess when verses can't be twisted to say something other than what they so clearly do teach, they just have to ignore them.

He literally started out by stating he was talking about people who are slaves to sin. That's referring to the unregenerate, not Christians. He couldn't even get out of the gate right.

 

[samir]

I said this:
"Consider the Jewish Pharisees. They were considered highly moral, they kept the Law."

Please note what I actually said: "they were considered highly moral". I wasn't speaking about in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of moralists, much like yourself.

I was addressing where you said "they kept the Law."

Yes, of course, Scripture condemned the Pharisees, but they sure weren't viewed as being immoral people. On the contrary, they were highly regarded by the people.[/QUOTE]

The simple minded who were impressed with outward observance considered them righteous but moralists (those with morals) like myself don't consider them very righteous at all. What's righteous about doing rituals to look good before men while having no love for God and no desire to live for Him?

In fact, Jesus acknowledged the apparent righteousness of the Pharisees in Matt 5:20 - “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

If anyone isn't more righteous than the low standard of the Pharisees, he certainly will not make it into heaven. It's not enough to give lip service to Jesus, we must obey what He commands and follow the entire law of Christ.

 

[samir]

He literally started out by stating he was talking about people who are slaves to sin. That's referring to the unregenerate, not Christians. He couldn't even get out of the gate right.

Where does scripture say believers can't be slaves to sin? I see it all the time.