Afraid of the Church

[lawndartboy]

I have a friend who is a Christian but told me that they are unwilling to go to church because in history there is examples of the church being infiltrated and being used as a tool of the government for political purposes (The Communists). He also stresses that the only thing that matters is his relationship with God and he doesn't need to go to church to love God. Any thoughts on responses to these quandries???

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would ask where in Scripture does it show a Churchless Christianity or isolated Christians.

 

[buzuxi02]

What does his relationship with God entail? How much of modern culture and thinking (government propaganda, schools and media) have influenced and infiltrated his ideas about God?

The church will always have pressure from various groups looking to sabotage her, but as long as that which has been passed down is not abolished then she will persevere. This is why the laity speak up when praxis is challenged,, why there are monastics, differing jurisdictions, catacomb christianity, and the canons.

 

[Liberation]

I might suggest a less antagonistic approach that acknowledges his concerns and stresses the values of being within a community. Christ does not call us to a relationship with Him only but His entire body.

One cannot fully express his human needs in the absence of God or humanity.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Self-baptism, self-communion, self-confession, solo worship, solo vespers, marrying oneself, we're not meant for that. As Matt said, we're not islands unto ourselves, but a community forged in Christ's metal. We are called to do this thing together. I'd also remind this person that we're FIGHTING A WAR against Satan. Soldiers fight together, not on private missions. We're not Rambo. We're in a platoon against Satan. That's one aspect. The other aspect is that we're in a marathon. We run together in marathons.

The ancient Church was not a spread-out bunch of island solo acts, but communities, and Eucharistic Ecclesiology was the norm.

United we stand, divided we fall applies to our walk with Christ. Even monastics need their fellow monks, abbots, and priests to strengthen them and worship with them and give them the sacraments.

It is FROM our unity that we have that relationship with Christ. When I sin, it hurts my fellow Orthodox here online or locally. We are a body. When I am hurting, so are they. When I am blessed and on the right path, it helps and blesses others. We are a spiritual ecosystem.

 

[E.C.]

I remember a story from my Roman Catholic school days...

There once was a man who announced to his village, family, friends, etc; that he believed going to church a waste of time and that he'd worship God "my way". Initially he began to use that time not in church for things like sleeping in and fishing. Some time goes bye and he becomes more and more detached from the community and eventually finds himself miserable and decides to stay in some nearby mountains for a time. Some weeks go by in isolation, when he gets visited by the village priest. They share a meal and they talk about the goings on in the village and the mountain, but they do not talk about the man's isolation. As it gets darker and colder out, after all it was winter, the man begins a fire in his cabin. The man and the priest continue to visit until a silence falls between them. The priest gets up, grabs the fire tongs, reaches in and without saying a word pulls out one of the coals of the fire and sets it on the ground. When he sits back down, the two say nothing as the fire continues to burn and the coal begins to die.
The man returned to church that week.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That about FLOORED ME, E.C.!!! Oh man. Poignant stuff, my man. Incredible!

I remember a story from my Roman Catholic school days...

There once was a man who announced to his village, family, friends, etc; that he believed going to church a waste of time and that he'd worship God "my way". Initially he began to use that time not in church for things like sleeping in and fishing. Some time goes bye and he becomes more and more detached from the community and eventually finds himself miserable and decides to stay in some nearby mountains for a time. Some weeks go by in isolation, when he gets visited by the village priest. They share a meal and they talk about the goings on in the village and the mountain, but they do not talk about the man's isolation. As it gets darker and colder out, after all it was winter, the man begins a fire in his cabin. The man and the priest continue to visit until a silence falls between them. The priest gets up, grabs the fire tongs, reaches in and without saying a word pulls out one of the coals of the fire and sets it on the ground. When he sits back down, the two say nothing as the fire continues to burn and the coal begins to die.
The man returned to church that week.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I guess that I would very simply say that if Christ's final commandment to us, "Love one another as I have loved you." is to be followed, then one cannot be a lone/alone Christian. If there is evil in the Church, then it is our calling to weed it out and work diligently for the salvation of our brothers and sisters in Christ, not to retreat to a hiding place and wait for God to come to us.

 

[Dorothea]

What everyone said - community is important, but to me, so vital is joining with Christ through partaking of His precious Body and Blood, which sustains me (and I'm sure each person) throughout the week.

 

[~Anastasia~]

All I can say is what Dorothea said ... "What everyone said"

I spent my early days seeking God alone because that was how I came to Him as an adult. But it became very clear before long that He would have me in Church, and as the years go by, I see more and more of the reasons why.

Church is not always ideal, but I always knew that was the place to be. If it was too far from God, I sought out a different fellowship.

Is your friend in a country where there is a big problem with his particular local Church? Or is this just an excuse? (rhetorical question - doesn't have to be answered)

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would also point out that God is a Communion of Three Persons, Who when He created man said it is not well that man should be alone. from the beginning of Scripture, all we see is Church.

 

[MoeSzyslak]

I have a friend who is a Christian but told me that they are unwilling to go to church because in history there is examples of the church being infiltrated and being used as a tool of the government for political purposes (The Communists). He also stresses that the only thing that matters is his relationship with God and he doesn't need to go to church to love God. Any thoughts on responses to these quandries???

There are many examples in history of people claiming to be Christians alone, but turns out they really weren't Christian. Why is he not concerned about that fact?

The church is called the body of Christ. How can one claim to love Christ, yet disdain his body? "The eye cannot say to the hand, I don't need you! And the head cannot say to the feet, I don't need you!" 1Cor12:21.

 

[SeventhValley]

The town’s Russian Orthodox priests have now themselves mostly disappeared, apparently taking flight to escape possible arrest by the Ukrainian authorities for their role in supporting the rebellion. Among those who have gone missing is Father Vitaly, a priest at Slovyansk’s oldest church, Church of the Holy Resurrection, which controlled the cultural center used by the gunmen. His staff said he was away on a trip and would return, though when was unclear. A telephone number they gave for him did not work.

When pro-Russian gunmen first took control of Slovyansk, the town’s elected mayor, Neli Shtepa, who initially supported the takeover, said in an interview with Ukraine’s Unian news agency that Father Vitaly had welcomed the rebels onto church property to help them prepare their initial assault. She was arrested by the rebels soon afterward and spent three months detained in city hall.

Archbishop Arseny of Svyatogorsk Lavra, the Moscow patriarchate’s senior area cleric, issued a statement dismissing Ms. Shtepa’s accusations against the church as “fantasy” and slander.

Villa Maria, the Orthodox church cultural center, has now been emptied of the pro-Russian fighters who used it as a recreation center during their occupation of Slovyansk. They left behind empty boxes of ammunition, empty bottles of liquor, weight lifting equipment and a jumble of leaflets denouncing the government in Kiev and its Western backers. “Today we face a choice,” read one. “Unity with our brother peoples or falling under the European boot.”-Andrew Higgans New York Times.

Apparently Russian Orthodox priests in Ukraine have been helping Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries. Apparently using the term "Holy Rus" and persecuting Ukrainian Orthodox.
While they can do what they want the fact that the Moscow Patriarch covers it up bothers me. In the same way Evangelicals tried to cover for Bush. I was disappointed Orthodox would use the same tactics as Evangelicals.

Although apparently when Patriarch Kirill supported protestors the other year Putin smacked him down. He put out dirt that he had on him using his church's money on things like nice watches and swanky apartment for himself.
So you play with fire...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Since Imperial Rome times, Orthodoxy has had a cozy church-state relationship that has definitely had conflicts of interest, corruption, issues, and bad outcomes. Russia is no different. The Russian Orthodox Church there is so tight with the Putin regime and so much is justified in the name of mother Russia's identity with Orthodoxy that the lines are blurred. I find it disconcerting. I also find it disturbing how Orthodoxy in Serbia has been used to see land as almost some kind of God-given holy land. The Serbs see Kosovo almost the way the radical Muslims see Jerusalem---like a land given to them by God from on high like Canaan to Abraham, something to fight for, even if you have to fill ditches with corpses to do it. I've heard a lot of holocaust denial, chauvinism, and radical patriotic thinking in Orthodoxy since I've been in it, and from time to time I face-palm and smh. I just have to distance myself from the church-state ethnic stuff.

Apparently Russian Orthodox priests in Ukraine have been helping Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries. Apparently using the term "Holy Rus" and persecuting Ukrainian Orthodox.
While they can do what they want the fact that the Moscow Patriarch covers it up bothers me. In the same way Evangelicals tried to cover for Bush. I was disappointed Orthodox would use the same tactics as Evangelicals.

Although apparently when Patriarch Kirill supported protestors the other year Putin smacked him down. He put out dirt that he had on him using his church's money on things like nice watches and swanky apartment for himself.
So you play with fire...

 

[SeventhValley]

Since Imperial Rome times, Orthodoxy has had a cozy church-state relationship that has definitely had conflicts of interest, corruption, issues, and bad outcomes. Russia is no different. The Russian Orthodox Church there is so tight with the Putin regime and so much is justified in the name of mother Russia's identity with Orthodoxy that the lines are blurred. I find it disconcerting. I also find it disturbing how Orthodoxy in Serbia has been used to see land as almost some kind of God-given holy land. The Serbs see Kosovo almost the way the radical Muslims see Jerusalem---like a land given to them by God from on high like Canaan to Abraham, something to fight for, even if you have to fill ditches with corpses to do it. I've heard a lot of holocaust denial, chauvinism, and radical patriotic thinking in Orthodoxy since I've been in it, and from time to time I face-palm and smh. I just have to distance myself from the church-state ethnic stuff.

Evangelicals do it too.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To some degree, EVERYBODY does it, dude! The Mormons in Utah, the Catholics in several countries like the Philippines, the Orthodox in Russia, the Buddhists in Thailand, Hindus in India, religion and politics is still mixed heavily. And yeah, the evangelicals have been running the GOP for years. It's scary how much our pro-Israel policies have been shaped by weird zionist evangelicals who are obsessed with Israel's role in the 'end times,' etc. Crazy.

Evangelicals do it too.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@SeventhValley

Russian Orthodox priests in Ukraine have been helping Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries - all priests or only some? to Russian soldiers? mercenaries? only Russian priests and only to Russians? Man, be carefull and especially in cases when open mouth to blame Churh and priests.

BASIS - Civil war is on Ukraine as minimum. Therefore some priests sympathize to pro-Ukranians, some to Pro-Russian. Orthodox priests pray for own parishioners as Russian as Ukranian as other else. Thats all. Just for information, suppose all pray for coming peace in Ukraine on every sundays liturgy in Russia.

the term "Holy Rus" and persecuting Ukrainian Orthodox - yeah, people are so stupid so its very easy to persecute them by words and only SeventhValley has clear view and right understanding which allows to judge without any doubts. About term "Holy Russia" - type in google Russian Saints and will see partly what does it mean.

he had on him using his church's money - any proof that he paid for watches and paid by church's money?

 

[ArmyMatt]

And yeah, the evangelicals have been running the GOP for years. It's scary how much our pro-Israel policies have been shaped by weird zionist evangelicals who are obsessed with Israel's role in the 'end times,' etc. Crazy.

oooohhhhhhh yeah (shudders)

 

[SeventhValley]

@SeventhValley

Russian Orthodox priests in Ukraine have been helping Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries - all priests or only some? to Russian soldiers? mercenaries? only Russian priests and only to Russians? Man, be carefull and especially in cases when open mouth to blame Churh and priests.

BASIS - Civil war is on Ukraine as minimum. Therefore some priests sympathize to pro-Ukranians, some to Pro-Russian. Orthodox priests pray for own parishioners as Russian as Ukranian as other else. Thats all. Just for information, suppose all pray for coming peace in Ukraine on every sundays liturgy in Russia.

the term "Holy Rus" and persecuting Ukrainian Orthodox - yeah, people are so stupid so its very easy to persecute them by words and only SeventhValley has clear view and right understanding which allows to judge without any doubts. About term "Holy Russia" - type in google Russian Saints and will see partly what does it mean.

he had on him using his church's money - any proof that he paid for watches and paid by church's money?

I know it is only some preists. I just do not see why people deny that it happens. I know that Bush era policies were affected by Apocalyptic Evangelical Christians and is worse than a few preists who identify as Russian.

I just wonder why the church denied it instead of just being honest that sometimes the preists pick a side.

As far as the watches and apartment are concerned I know the patriarch toned down his criticism of Putin soon after the State media talked about it.

But yes nothing can be known for sure. We all just work with the information we got.

I actually love many Russian buildings and novels. Leo Tolstoy is a favorite of mine. I also liked learning about Rasputin who I think was a conflicted person not an evil one.

Also the Russian sacrifices in WW2 to defeat Hitler were very impressive.