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I stated specifically that the judgment in vs 16 is not limited to "on or after the day of wrath" and so far even you could not make that idea fly.You cited the whole section, so I responded to the whole section.
Dan 7 clearly states that God's judgement takes place before the seconding - just as the thread you say you are avoiding clearly shows --And While you have ignored it again and again the following text specifies when that day is.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
Dan 7 clearly states that God's judgement takes place before the seconding - just as the thread you say you are avoiding clearly shows --And While you have ignored it again and again the following text specifies when that day is.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
Then apparently we are both satisfied with the situation as stated.Bob I am quite certain that people will see who is taking verses out of context.
aside from the entire chapter of Dan 7 for the Pre-advent IJ and the Romans 2 chapter showing the process that is used for that judgment in vs 4-16 .. where as Dan 7 points out the saints are being tormented by the wicked for the entire time that judgment is taking place?You cannot even find one passage that has the elements you want
The Dan 7 chapter says the time he appoints for the judgment is before the coming of Christ and some time after the 1260 years of dark ages - and it is DURING the period where saints are being persecuted by the wicked.It notes that judgement will be by the Lord, and at the time He has appointed.
A good example of Paul instructing church members not to judge others.1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
The thread you say you are avoiding explicitly refutes your suggestion that Yom Kippur is not a judgment event. Had you taken the time to read 'page one' of that thread you would know it.The fundamental belief states a blatant untruth which anyone who reads Leviticus 16 can see. The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is not an investigation of individual cases from books. The high priest on the day of atonement went into God's presence and presented atoning blood.
But of course that is in the chapter on the pre-Advent IJ -- Dan 7... which you are not quoting at all.
A good example of Paul instructing church members not to judge others.
The thread you say you are avoiding explicitly refutes your suggestion that Yom Kippur is not a judgment event. Had you taken the time to read 'page one' of that thread you would know it.
Because I like refuting your wild claims that only Adventists know about these details when it comes to the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.I see you had to resort to the Talmud and other sources again!
Indeed it is - and the type includes judgment. This is not just known to Jews and SDAs. Do you need more sources that admit to this glaringly obvious Bible detail?The type is in Leviticus 16 Bob,
I did not write Dan 7 -- each time you go there you don't argue with me - you argue with "The text".and the task of the high priest in the sanctuary is clearly stated, and involves no books or judgment.
I would say that your quotes of Dan 7 when speaking to the very details about the Judgment that Dan 7 addresses - is a rare find by contrast to my consistent reference to the actual text of Dan 7 for the details it speaks to regarding the judgment passed in favor of the saints (at its conclusion) where the entire time that the judgment is on going - the saints are persecuted by the wicked.Well Bob, are you sure you want to say I have not quoted Daniel 7?
I admitted that Dan 7 does involve the judgment - I think we all get that. You quoted the chapter to show that it includes judgment and ends with the appearing of Christ - which are two statements I keep making about Dan 7 from the very start.For instance, one of the times I quoted it was to point out how you were wrong about the eschaton, which you admitted.
Because I like refuting your wild claims that only Adventists know about these details when it comes to the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.
A great shofar will be blown, and a small still voice will be heard. The angels will make haste, and be seized with fear and trembling, and will say: "Behold, the day of judgment!"... On Rosh Hashanah it is written, and on the Yom Kippur fast it is sealed, how many will pass and how many will be created, who will live and who will die, who in his time and who not in his time... But repentance, prayer, and charity remove the evil of the decree... For You do not desire a person's death, but rather that he repent and live. Until the day of his death You wait for him; if he repents, You accept him immediately.
Indeed it is - and the type includes judgment. This is not just known to Jews and SDAs. Do you need more sources that admit to this glaringly obvious Bible detail?
I did not write Dan 7 -- each time you go there you don't argue with me - you argue with "The text".
But you keep making contradicting statements about Dan 7 then not quoting it - so it ends up being me that quotes that chapter each time you contradict it.
The sda came out of the Millerites who also made false prophecies,the JWs came out of both, oh and they made false prophecies. The SDA stole the historicist teaching.tall73 said:
Or even stranger yet how Ellen White could endorse that message of Jesus' coming in 1843 as "heavenly" and "saving truth",
No Bob, that does not make Miller's message, that Jesus was coming in 1843, then 1844, "heavenly" or "saving truth" because it was a false message completely. Jesus did not come in 1843 or 1844. She says God wanted to test people. But that is of course complete spin.
They ignored what the Scriptures said to give the false message in the first place.
Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Her argument that those who actually followed what Jesus said were lost because of it is ridiculous.
You have not tried, and could not, answer that objection. Because to do so you would have to say that the only way to pass the test Ellen White alleges is to ignore Jesus' own words.
Well if you are happy with your quote of Dan 7 then I am certainly ok with it since I already have this thread on Dan 7 making my point.Of course I already did quote it Bob.
Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment -
Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court")
vs 9 begins after the rise and fall of the 4th empire in Dan 7 (Pagan Rome)
We see the investigative judgment in vs 9-10 (investigating out of the content of books of record) in this courtroom.
Dan 7:
9 “I kept lookingUntil thrones were set up,And the Ancient of Days took His seat;His garment was white as snow,And the hair of His head like pure wool.His throne was ablaze with flames,Its wheels were a burning fire.10 A river of fire was flowingAnd coming out from before Him;Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;The court convened,And the books were opened.
"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Job 1 and Job 2 give us a clear view of how the court is very interested in those claimed to be saints - taking a lot of time to review the details - but is not very interested in the idea of proving that the wicked who oppress Job "are indeed wicked" ... since that part is obvious to all. In fact in Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" so from the heavenly court POV the interesting part is that there is A SAINT. That claim is reviewed closely as we see in Job 1 and also in 2 Cor 5:10 "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (we -- means this includes the saints)
Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.
23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.Then the kingdom of this world is turned over to Christ and saints. This is the Advent of Christ so all that came before is pre-advent
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’
Your refusal to go that thread on Dan 7 above where we find my post above - speaks volumes.You quoting one line again doesn't prove your point.
What I said in real life is that the statement in is about Judgment concerning the saints - passed in favor of the saints.You say there is no judgment on the nations. But there is:
The beasts, which you acknowledge represent nations, are judged:
7:11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
I have that Dan 7 post for all to review - anyone can see that the detail about saints in the judgment and all during that judgment being tormented by the wicked -- destroys your entire suggestion about when this takes place.Your pulling out one line and then referencing Romans 2 is by definition not looking at context
Read the post above on Dan 7 that you claim to be ignoring... read Job 1 and Job 2., because you can't even find the details for your view present in either context.
Now Bob, the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White who you claim to believe, is only on professed followers of God
Except in that thread above on Dan 7 which you claim you are not looking at.tall73 said:
Did you just forget Bob that you haven't shown us where in Scripture you get the idea of an investigative judgment
As I already showed you in triplicate and even with its own dedicated thread as well -- all of the Pre-Advent IJ details you object to where already shown to you from Dan 7 alone.being the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of atonement
I guess if you are determined not to read the thread that deals with your topic - you can keep posting that.in the first place? Because that is definitely not in the text.
That's what we always say - but we never claim the Millerites were SDA.The sda came out of the Millerites
Many groups sprang out of Christian groups including Jim Jones' group. That form of pejorative does not age well when details are reviewed.who also made false prophecies,the JWs came out of both
We never claimed to invent it - rather we claim that it is a Protestant principle that we hold to and which many groups today choose to reject., oh and they made false prophecies. The SDA stole the historicist teaching.
IN fact we would say it goes back to the first century NT church.. So then "the Bible"Historicist teaching actually goes back to the earliest church writers
Never said anything about "not going well". What I said is that I would highlight the point you are apparently not interested in seeing "on page one" of the thread - by starting thread just on that one Dan 7 pre-Advent IJ judgment out of the books of record where judgment is passed "in favor of the saints" all the while the saints are being tormented by the wicked - as Dan 7 points out.I didn't claim I wasn't reading it. I don't intend to go post in a new thread every time you decide the one we are conversing in is not going well
Because as I stated repeatedly Dan 7 provides that detail -- you know the topic of a dedicated thread on that very point.. you know ... the thread you claim you are not addressing...You still didn't show in your new thread that the high priest in the sanctuary on the day of atonement was investigating books.
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