Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Jimlarmore]

No, I don't see how I am backing myself into a corner. Observing the Sabbath like you practice is the same as wearing tassels on your clothes to me. The Sabbath (as you practice it) is not a circumstance in the life of a new covenant believer any more than wearing tassels on your coat is.

Then what is a circumstance in life? Isn't the experience of living a righteous life with the power of Christ and serving God a circumstance in life? If not why not?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

We even have adventists who don't accept the literal account of most of the Bible at all and believe in evolution. Now that's hard for me to accept.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

That's true. That's kind of at the far left end of the spectrum for Adventists, though. Most Adventists probably are not quite so liberal on that subject.

 

[Eila]

I don't know if you realize it or not but when you said curse God you were speaking of an act of violation of the ten commandments. Also the act of not accepting Jesus Christ takes in idol worship as you are worshiping yourself to deny God His child and the plan of Salvation to work. You can't escape the truth dear sister no matter how you try to rationalize it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

No, what I have said is not based on the old covenant, but the new covenant. See below:

1 Cor 12 " 3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking under the power and influence of the [Holy] Spirit of God can [ever] say, Jesus be cursed! And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit."

1 John 3 "
23And this is His order (His command, His injunction): that we should believe in (put our faith and trust in and adhere to and rely on) the name of His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and that we should love one another, just as He has commanded us.
24All who keep His commandments [who obey His orders and follow His plan, live and continue to live, to stay and] abide in Him, and He in them. [[r]They let Christ be a home to them and they are the home of Christ.] And by this we know and understand and have the proof that He [really] lives and makes His home in us: by the [Holy] Spirit Whom He has given us."

 

[Eila]

Then what is a circumstance in life? Isn't the experience of living a righteous life with the power of Christ and serving God a circumstance in life? If not why not?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

If we look at the text I think that it is a good example:

"12I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.
13I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who [a]infuses inner strength into me; I am [b]self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency].
14But it was right and commendable and noble of you to contribute for my needs and to share my difficulties with me."

If we take an example from the text we see a circumstance to be Paul talking about when he was in want and when he did not have enough support.

 

[Eila]

That's true. That's kind of at the far left end of the spectrum for Adventists, though. Most Adventists probably are not quite so liberal on that subject.

Am I incorrect to assume that most SDAs believe in thought-inspiration and not in the literal words being inspired?

 

[Sophia7]

I see what you are saying here and I agree with you partly. I believe when we hear the Word of God the Holy Spirit works on our heart. If you are saying that God discriminates which person will receive faith and which one will not then I disagree with you.

The Bible says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 10 expresses this well I think "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[g]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”[i]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith comes when the good news of Jesus is shared. Romans 1 says "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

The good news of what Jesus has done is what stirs up faith. The Holy Spirit is working through you when you preach the Gospel and working in the hearts of the listeners. So yes I agree that faith comes from God, yet man must accept this gift and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I think we agree.

Faith is a gift given to ALL, without discrimination. Some use it to trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation, others use it to trust in themsleves. Even our response is a result of the Holy Spirit doing his work in us.

I think what you're talking about is prevenient grace, and I agree that even the faith to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. I believe that God is sovereign but not that He calls only certain people to be saved or that we are once saved, always saved. I believe that God allows us the freedom to accept or reject His working in our hearts and His gift of salvation. I guess I'm pretty close to Wesleyanism on this issue.

 

[Sophia7]

Am I incorrect to assume that most SDAs believe in thought-inspiration and not in the literal words being inspired?

Probably. I do know some Adventists who are more fundamentalist on this, though. In general, I don't think word-for-word dictation of the Bible is a predominant view among Adventists (although maybe in some places it is). Verbal inspiration is certainly not the official teaching of the church.

 

[Adventtruth]

Then everyone should be saved and we are no longer in possession of free wills at all. Your philsophy is in direct opposition to the truth in the Bible. The entire Bible is based on us making a choice to choose life and not death. According to you we don't even do that. This is the foundation of the apostacy of this movement of yours. I've been baptist and this is nothing more than what they believe which is once saved always saved.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim can you provide scripture in context for your understanding?

AT

 

[Jimlarmore]

No, what I have said is not based on the old covenant, but the new covenant. See below:

Every commandment in the ten were either repeated or confirmed in the new covenant including the Sabbath. The new covenant is not a new set of laws or commandments. The new covenant actually makes the observance more strict and places the laws of God in our hearts where they belong, not on just tables of stone. So when you say curse God it is breaking the ten commandments.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

We already have the victory over sin. You have a definition of sin that includes halfway keeping the Sabbath. I understand how you view the text, but from the context you cannot say that it is about law keeping especially when there are so many versus saying the law is complete/finished/fulfilled/at an end and we are no longer under the law.



No, no, no, no, no!!! Sorry for being so blunt. But the essense of the Gospel is not the example of Jesus!!!! The Gospel is what Jesus DID for us already.



If you are depending on your keeping of the law then you will fall short. Have you kept them perfectly? Have you ever been angry? Have you ever sinned?

Galatians 3 " 1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
2Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]
3Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?"

If you are depending on your actions to reach perfection you will fall short. Perfection is only attainable through accepting His perfection.

Nobody said our salvation depends on your works of keeping the law. Can you find where any of us said such thing? I think not.

The reason Jesus incarnated in a human form is because even that He suffers all our infirmities and was tempted in all ways, He committed no sin, leaving us an example.
Example means something you follow.

Of course the bible is about victory over sin. And when Jesus comes back and you are still sinning, you shall not enter into the promised city. Did the Israelites who rebelled entered into the promised land after they had been saved by grace in Egypt? No. If you intend to do nothing, God is not going to do it for you because He's not unjust while letting others perish.

The majority of christianity teaches this cheap grace, that Jesus did it all for me, so I don't have to do anything. I don't have to keep the law, really it's the sabbath they are having problems with.

By saying it's impossible to keep the law, you are saying the devil who wants you to break the law is stronger than Jesus who asks you to keep the law.

 

[Jimlarmore]

If we look at the text I think that it is a good example:

"12I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.
13I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who [a]infuses inner strength into me; I am [b]self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency].
14But it was right and commendable and noble of you to contribute for my needs and to share my difficulties with me."

If we take an example from the text we see a circumstance to be Paul talking about when he was in want and when he did not have enough support.

But you can't limit these verses to that only. Look at the part's I bolded above and read what it says. You are limiting the power of Christ when you say this is only involved in want or when Paul didn't have enough support. When the apostle said I can do all things thru
Christ who strengthens me he meant all things connected to living a life for Christ which would include temptations and sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

would you ever put a clean coat over your filthy body and your filthy clothes? No. Unless you only want to appear righteous.

Study the Old Testament, Aaron and his sons first had to take off their own garments and bathed in their bodies thoroughly before they could put on a clean, white garment before they went in the sanctuary to meet the Lord.

 

[Eila]

But you can't limit these verses to that only. Look at the part's I bolded above and read what it says. You are limiting the power of Christ when you say this is only involved in want or when Paul didn't have enough support. When the apostle said I can do all things thru
Christ who strengthens me he meant all things connected to living a life for Christ which would include temptations and sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I understand what you are saying. You, however, asked for an example and I thought the actual text gave a good example.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim can you provide scripture in context for your understanding?

AT

Yes, the entire Bible AT is about God asking us to choose between life and death, righteousness and wickedness. We have a choice to live as we decide to live. There is a work for us to do in the plan of salvation. God does not force salvation on us, it takes a conscious effort and mental ascent to submit our will's to Him so His grace and love can save us . What you guys , or at least Freeindeed is saying, is that we don't even have a choice at all and nothing we do can contribute to our salvation.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

p.s. You and I have had some very heated discussion in the past. You've said some things that were offensive to me and I have said some things that has offended you. I wasn't going to respond to you ever again on the internet, but I re-thought that position with this condition. If you have a serious problem with what I have said how about sending me a pm instead of running to the mod's and trying to get me in trouble here? I'll do the same thing, I promise.

Deal?

God Bless again,
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

would you ever put a clean coat over your filthy body and your filthy clothes? No. Unless you only want to appear righteous.

Study the Old Testament, Aaron and his sons first had to take off their own garments and bathed in their bodies thoroughly before they could put on a clean, white garment before they went in the sanctuary to meet the Lord.

The same God who clothes us with a robe of righteousness makes us holy. We can't cleanse ourselves in order to receive salvation, and we can't make ourselves holy by doing good works. We are sanctified by the grace of God and by the power of the Holy Spirit living in us. Both justification and sanctification are works of God, not of us.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
​

Were were created in Christ to do good works, but they don't save us, and they don't make us holy:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
​

 

[Jimlarmore]

I understand what you are saying. You, however, asked for an example and I thought the actual text gave a good example.

Examples of this is all around us every day Eila. I've seen it a hundred times. A person comes to Christ and is on fire for a while then they slip away slowly back into the world again. It can happen to any of us and it's a natural thing to do. We have to die daily to our old lives to keep Christ in our hearts. I have lived this in my own life more than once and I can tell you that sin is what takes us away from Christ. If you are knowingly breaking God's ten commandment law you are comitting sin , it's that simple.

The only way a sin is not imputed to us is if we are daily surrendering our lives to Christ and letting Him and His power transform us and cover that sin with His righteousness after we confesss and repent of it. When we sin and make it a practice in our lives then that is what turning our backs on the Lord is all about. Your side of this discussion says that no externals matter but that is licensciousness or saying it's ok to sin ,don't worry about it cause we can't stop sinning anyway. That's what the devil wants, he's such a genious in this, he's taken the very grace of Christ and led folks right back into sin. What's sad is many don't even see it because they have been sold a false idea or philosophy

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

The same God who clothes us with a robe of righteousness makes us holy. We can't cleanse ourselves in order to receive salvation, and we can't make ourselves holy by doing good works. We are sanctified by the grace of God and by the power of the Holy Spirit living in us. Both justification and sanctification are works of God, not of us.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
​

Were were created in Christ to do good works, but they don't save us, and they don't make us holy:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

​

I never said justification and sanctification are of our own works. Have you been following the sanctuary study? Who took off Aaron's clothes and washed his body and his sons'?

However God will not force these things on us if we do not make a decision to be clean and invite Him to cleanse us.

 

[Eila]

Nobody said our salvation depends on your works of keeping the law. Can you find where any of us said such thing? I think not.

In this post you said "when Jesus comes back and you are still sinning, you shall not enter the promised city." How is that not salvation by works?

The reason Jesus incarnated in a human form is because even that He suffers all our infirmities and was tempted in all ways, He committed no sin, leaving us an example.
Example means something you follow.

The reason Jesus came was to bring us back to God.

Colossians 1 "19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross"

We ARE reconciled back to God. Acting perfect has nothing to do with this reconciliation.
"17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

He became sin for us so that we could have His right-standing!!

Of course the bible is about victory over sin. And when Jesus comes back and you are still sinning, you shall not enter into the promised city.

What if you die today? Are you still sinning? Are you perfect in your actions?

Did the Israelites who rebelled entered into the promised land after they had been saved by grace in Egypt? No. If you intend to do nothing, God is not going to do it for you because He's not unjust while letting others perish.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Grace is unmerited favor. Did the Israelites go back into slavery once they were free?

The majority of christianity teaches this cheap grace, that Jesus did it all for me, so I don't have to do anything. I don't have to keep the law, really it's the sabbath they are having problems with.

Grace is unmerited favor. You can do nothing to merit grace. The grace given was at a GREAT cost. There was nothing cheap about what Jesus did.

By saying it's impossible to keep the law, you are saying the devil who wants you to break the law is stronger than Jesus who asks you to keep the law.

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

It's not about the law anymore.

 

[Eila]

Every commandment in the ten were either repeated or confirmed in the new covenant including the Sabbath. The new covenant is not a new set of laws or commandments. The new covenant actually makes the observance more strict and places the laws of God in our hearts where they belong, not on just tables of stone. So when you say curse God it is breaking the ten commandments.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

Where is the Sabbath command in the new covenant?

 

[Jimlarmore]

The same God who clothes us with a robe of righteousness makes us holy. We can't cleanse ourselves in order to receive salvation, and we can't make ourselves holy by doing good works. We are sanctified by the grace of God and by the power of the Holy Spirit living in us. Both justification and sanctification are works of God, not of us.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

Were were created in Christ to do good works, but they don't save us, and they don't make us holy:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

​

I agree wholeheartedly, but we still have our part to do in the plan of salvation. The act of submitting to the Holy Spirit alone is a work in and of itself and initiates the justification process. Sanctification comes as a result of a daily walk which is a commensal union between His power and our willingness to let Him make us Holy. Christ comes to reward us for our works, and faith with out works is dead.

God Bless
Jim Larmore