Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[OntheDL]

Yes, it is impossible for anyone to keep the commandments as Jesus described them.

I'll just comment on one point...

Consider these texts...

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandment and we are asked to follow His example of not sinning. Do you think He will ask us to do something impossible?

And furthermore...

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It says God will not allow us to be tempted beyond we are able to resist. How can we say it's impossible to keep the law.

Doesn't the bible also say "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"?

NASB, GWT, ASV, BBE, DBY, WEY, NIV, AMP. There may be more, but those are the ones I saw when I briefly looked.

Please look up the original Greek text, neither Textus Receptus nor Greek minority Text contains that passage "washed their robes white" instead of "do the commandment". If you don't have Interlinear bible, you can look it up on www.blueletter.org

 

[Jimlarmore]

Eila,
Is there anything you do now after being saved that is considered sin? Is there anything you do now after being saved to cause you to be lost?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Eila,
Is there anything you do now after being saved that is considered sin? Is there anything you do now after being saved to cause you to be lost?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim,

Is there anything you did or do that 'causes' you to be saved?

 

[Sophia7]

Please look up the original Greek text, neither Textus Receptus nor Greek minority Text contains that passage "washed their robes white" instead of "do the commandment". If you don't have Interlinear bible, you can look it up on www.blueletter.org

Do you mean the Majority Text? Both the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text use the phrase "do His commandments." The translations based on the Minority Text use the phrase "wash their robes."

 

[Eila]

How do you presume I'm just going to dismiss what you say? Have I not tried to provide scriptural references in our discussion so far?

Honestly, do you really think that someone who leaves the SDA church is right about anything related to doctrine?

I said IJ is a key issue in
I have posted many times on atonement. But in case you haven't seen it, atonement means to restore the original condition: the face to face relationship between man and God. That relationship is not restored until His second coming to receive the believers back to heaven.

Rev 16:17 & 21:6 both declares 'It is done' just prior to Christ's return. Have you considered maybe that is the completion of the atonement?

You are saying that the atonement is not done until the New Earth? No, I haven't considered that those are the completion of the atonement.

1 Cor 6 "11And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God."

Have you thought about the possibility maybe Jesus is waiting for that last soul that possibly could be saved? He's waiting to save as many as possible. But one day He will say enough is enough.

I think He is waiting for the Gospel of Jesus to go to every creature. If He knew that He would be waiting this long to finish the IJ then why didn't He start at a later time? Did He just want to do it slowly? And why would God need to go through the books anyway if He is all-knowing?

 

[Eila]

I'll just comment on one point...

Consider these texts...

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandment and we are asked to follow His example of not sinning. Do you think He will ask us to do something impossible?

It is impossible for anyone to completely keep the 10 commandments. Do you or anyone you know keep them completely? Have you ever felt anger towards your brother? Have you ever lusted (ever)?

The text you referenced is not talking about keeping the commandments perfectly or not sinning, but suffering for Christ.

2 Peter 1"20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."[e] 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

We are dead to sins and alive to righteousness. We are sinless by only accepting His sinless life as our own.

And furthermore...

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It says God will not allow us to be tempted beyond we are able to resist. How can we say it's impossible to keep the law.

Who do you know who has ever kept the law perfectly? Jesus has made us more than conquerors over sin. We have the victory over sin. The law brings death, not life. When you focus on the law you will always fall short.

Galatians 3 "
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Romans 7 "6But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

Please look up the original Greek text, neither Textus Receptus nor Greek minority Text contains that passage "washed their robes white" instead of "do the commandment". If you don't have Interlinear bible, you can look it up on www.blueletter.org

Either way "wash their robes" or "keep commandments" it doesn't matter. What we define the commandments to be are different anyway.

 

[Adventtruth]

I'll just comment on one point...

Consider these texts...

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandment and we are asked to follow His example of not sinning. Do you think He will ask us to do something impossible?

Peter did admonish us to let Jesus be our example. [SIZE=+2]Your reasons for this is taken out of context by proof texting to support you ideas about sinnless perfection.[/SIZE] Thats not what this passage is about. You cant just pull the text away from its context to make it say what you want it to say. Thats not what the bible is for. If you want the truth of the passage read the context. In it you will find that Peter was warning them to be faithful in there relationship with Christ that God may glorified and the foolish silenced.



And furthermore...

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It says God will not allow us to be tempted beyond we are able to resist. How can we say it's impossible to keep the law.



Because the bible also says


(Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

AT

 

[Eila]

Eila,
Is there anything you do now after being saved that is considered sin? Is there anything you do now after being saved to cause you to be lost?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Sin is sin, but sin is not counted against me. I have the righteousness of God. He became sin for me so that I could become the righteousness of God. When God looks at me He sees the righteousness of Jesus.

The only thing I can do to lose my salvation is to give back the gift of salvation and walk away from God forever.

 

[Eila]

I'd like to ask a question of my SDA friends here. I know what I believed about EGW as an Adventist, but I do not know if what I believed about her was standard. Do all or most accept her as a prophet? If so, does that mean all her writings are inspired? If so, what does "inspired" mean? Can you be an Adventist and not accept EGW as a prophet? I'm sure there are various opinions here.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim,

Is there anything you did or do that 'causes' you to be saved?

Of course there is. I gave my heart to the Lord, I surrendered my will to His. I continue to take up my cross each day to follow Him. These are all acts of faith that WORK to save me and lead to my sanctification.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The only thing I can do to lose my salvation is to give back the gift of salvation and walk away from God forever.

So how is it exactly that you do that?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Of course there is. I gave my heart to the Lord, I surrendered my will to His. I continue to take up my cross each day to follow Him. These are all acts of faith that WORK to save me and lead to my sanctification.

Then you do NOT believe we are saved by grace (alone), through faith (alone), and not by works, because you believe that you are involved with saving yourself.

I can't give anything, I cannot surrender (for sure 100%), and I can't take up my cross. He does all of these things for/through/in (even in spite of) me! I trust in Jesus Christ to save me 100% (And no, the trust I place in him was his gift to me too! I didn't trust him before he came and rescued me!)

 

[Sophia7]

I'd like to ask a question of my SDA friends here. I know what I believed about EGW as an Adventist, but I do not know if what I believed about her was standard. Do all or most accept her as a prophet? If so, does that mean all her writings are inspired? If so, what does "inspired" mean? Can you be an Adventist and not accept EGW as a prophet? I'm sure there are various opinions here.

I know of many Adventists who do not accept EGW as a prophet yet remain Adventists. Many also disagree with other traditional Adventist beliefs but still consider themselves Adventists. In fact, we have a Progressive SDA subforum in our congregational area to accommodate those who do not accept all 28 fundamental beliefs. I don't consider myself a very traditional Adventist on many issues. And, yes, you will hear varying opinions on EGW here and even in the Adventist forum itself.

 

[Eila]

So how is it exactly that you do that?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

How do you give back the gift of salvation? Deny Christ and turn your back on Him forever. Does that happen? Maybe, but if it does it is rare.

 

[Eila]

I know of many Adventists who do not accept EGW as a prophet yet remain Adventists. Many also disagree with other traditional Adventist beliefs but still consider themselves Adventists. In fact, we have a Progressive SDA subforum in our congregational area to accommodate those who do not accept all 28 fundamental beliefs. I don't consider myself a very traditional Adventist on many issues. And, yes, you will hear varying opinions on EGW here and even in the Adventist forum itself.

As a PW I'm sure you are familiar with the range of beliefs. So there are people who believe she was not a prophet? Do those people totally reject what she has to say or do they view her like another Christian writer?

 

[Eila]

Of course there is. I gave my heart to the Lord, I surrendered my will to His. I continue to take up my cross each day to follow Him. These are all acts of faith that WORK to save me and lead to my sanctification.

Your post brought a text to mind.

Hebrews 11 defines faith "1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]."

We see here that faith is the assurance - the proof' of the things we hope for and the evidence of things we don't see.

When you have faith in what Jesus did for you, you have the assurance that you are saved.

My little boys have memorized that verse: Faith is being sure of things you hope for and certain of things you don't see. Do you have faith in what Jesus has done if you are not sure if you are saved? Do you have the assurance - the title deed that says "I am saved"?

If you say "I am being saved" or "I don't know if I am saved" then how do you have the title deed? Faith in Jesus' shed blood for you is being certain even when you mess up and do what you should not. Is your faith still "being sure", do you still have that title deed? Or do you think that you have lost that right-standing with God? Salvation by grace through faith is just that - by faith. Even when you mess up you can be sure - that is what faith is. You can be certain. You can have that title deed.

 

[tall73]

Then you do NOT believe we are saved by grace (alone), through faith (alone), and not by works, because you believe that you are involved with saving yourself.

I can't give anything, I cannot surrender (for sure 100%), and I can't take up my cross. He does all of these things for/through/in (even in spite of) me! I trust in Jesus Christ to save me 100% (And no, the trust I place in him was his gift to me too! I didn't trust him before he came and rescued me!)

I don't consider it a "work" to trust. Nor do I think that my decision to trust undermine the grace of Christ or somehow indictates that I am trying to save myself. Salvation is only possible through Christ, but we accept that salvation in my view.

 

[Sophia7]

As a PW I'm sure you are familiar with the range of beliefs. So there are people who believe she was not a prophet? Do those people totally reject what she has to say or do they view her like another Christian writer?

Some Adventists don't think about these issues much at all, except for the occasional EGW comment that comes up, usually during Sabbath School. I was raised in a family that didn't put much emphasis at all on EGW. We owned some of her books, but my family didn't follow her counsels very strictly. I didn't have much of an opinion of her one way or the other until I started reading her writings when I was in college.

Some Adventists who don't believe that Ellen White was a prophet do view her as just another Christian writer who had some good and maybe even inspiring things to say. They glean what they can from her and disregard whatever they believe contradicts the Bible. On the other hand, some don't see any value in her writings at all because they feel that there are too many errors and contradictions and false prophecies that could lead them to misinterpret the Bible.

[FONT=&quot]Most Adventists who have rejected her as a prophet view her as a sincere Christian woman who was just misguided (for whatever reason, and there are plenty of theories floating around online) into believing that she was a prophet. I think you'll find the same range of views on this within the church as you do outside Adventism. I've talked to people who have never been Adventists who like to read her books because they have some good things in them, but they just don't see them as inspired. Others don’t want anything to do with them.
[/FONT]

 

[OntheDL]

You're right! In fact, it's the ONLY unique doctrine to Seventh day Adventism! All one has to do is go back to the beginning of how the doctrine was established and take it from there. It has become extremely complex and complicated since the first vision of it on October 23, 1844. It's an onion with so many layers that it gets very confusing trying to understand it (which is no accident!).

ALL SDA's need to understand how the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment was arrived at. Many would be shocked to discover it's roots. They should go all the way back to William Miller's 15 proofs for the second coming and REALLY understand what he used to try and prove Christ was coming! Many thinking individuals would be shocked at how flimsy the 'proofs' are. But they are the same EXACT basis for arriving at the Investigative Judgment! HUGE assumptions were made that most SDA theologians today would scoff at. Miller was no theologian, but a farmer. And he was wrong!

I would challenge any SDA to go back to the beginning and work from there. After 160 plus years of trying to make the Bible fit into the IJ, it is extremely complicated to peel back the layers of the SDA onion. But it's quite easy to understand it from the beginning. Check it out! After all, SDA's are the ONLY one's who believe it and they came up with it! Nobody else accepts it. You owe it to yourself to discover how it all came about!

Actually, that's incorrect. The IJ doctrine was understood completely by SDAs after they studied and understood the sanctuary after the 1844's great disappointment. The SDA's sanctuary doctrine is unique and far more complete and complex of any denominations.

 

[OntheDL]

It is impossible for anyone to completely keep the 10 commandments. Do you or anyone you know keep them completely? Have you ever felt anger towards your brother? Have you ever lusted (ever)?

The text you referenced is not talking about keeping the commandments perfectly or not sinning, but suffering for Christ.

2 Peter 1"20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."[e] 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

We are dead to sins and alive to righteousness. We are sinless by only accepting His sinless life as our own.



Who do you know who has ever kept the law perfectly? Jesus has made us more than conquerors over sin. We have the victory over sin. The law brings death, not life. When you focus on the law you will always fall short.

Galatians 3 "
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Romans 7 "6But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

Either way "wash their robes" or "keep commandments" it doesn't matter. What we define the commandments to be are different anyway.

Well then you don't believe in this: "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me".