Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Eila]

I wouldn't know until you told me your viewpoint

I believe the final judgement is a judgement of our works and not our final destination. It is at this judgement where one receives rewards or punishment based on the works done while in the body.

 

[tall73]

Alright, just to be clear, are you saying

a. the judgment of destination happens at death?
b. those who have been in hell, assuming you believe that they are at death, are not receiving punishments?
c. Those who are in glory are not receiving rewards?

I am not sure I quite understand your position so I am clarifying.

 

[Jon0388g]

The body even when reduced to ashes does not cease to exist.

lol

Jon

 

[Eila]

Alright, just to be clear, are you saying

a. the judgment of destination happens at death?
b. those who have been in hell, assuming you believe that they are at death, are not receiving punishments?
c. Those who are in glory are not receiving rewards?

I am not sure I quite understand your position so I am clarifying.

Let me clarify:

I believe the judgement of destination is settled on this earth. I believe all people are headed to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Upon death the person in God's kingdom goes to heaven and the person in the devil's kingdom goes to Hades. The righteous are in the presence of God and the wicked are in Hades. The Bible describes Hades as a place of tormet, but Hades is not the final destination. While the righteous are in the presence of God and the wicked are in Hades I don't believe that they are receiving rewards/punishment based on the deeds done while in the body.

Just after the second coming the righteous are rewarded for the works done while in the body and then they will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. At the great white throne of judgment the wicked receive their punishment based on their deeds done while in the body and receive that punishment in Gehenna. Hades is like a local prison and Gehenna is like a penitentiary.

Some of what I have said it is impossible to be dogmatic about because we are dealing with the future and some things the Bible does not specifically say. However, what I have written is what I believe.

 

[Eila]

lol

Jon

The body does exist in the form of ashes. I can take grain and grind it into flour. The grain still exists, but in the form of powder. If I throw the powder to the wind the powder does not cease to exist, but it is just scattered around everywhere.

 

[OntheDL]

I may not have known some things like the Shut Door or fully understood the incomplete atonement, but I was an Adventist through and through. I believed in the Sabbath so strongly I would have given my life rather than deny it.

So you gave up on the sabbath? What changed?

 

[OntheDL]

So you hold to once saved always saved...in a slightly different form.

"Once Adventist always Adventist."

If they leave they just were really never TRUE Adventists?

Assuming for a moment that all our beliefs are 100 percent true, cannot people leave the truth?

Again, this whole pattern of questioning does not do anything to convince him.

Of course people can choose to deny the truth they once knew, but you can tell if someone really knew what they believed.

Well I wasn't trying to convince him. I was telling what I believe to be the plain truth. I had given him the courtesy and the benefit of the doubt at the beginning. But it become apparent alot of people don't have an open mind.

 

[OntheDL]

Let's get this going guys or have you decided not to discuss this? If not then why not?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hi Jim

May I sugguest to start a new thread for each seperate topics? It's too hard to follow all the conversations in this one single giant thread.

Thanks,
David

 

[Eila]

So you gave up on the sabbath? What changed?

I didn't give up on the Sabbath. My beliefs changed. After I started questioning Adventist doctrine I sat down and read the Bible as though I had never read it before. I took off my Adventist eyeglasses and saw the Bible in a new light. It was a valuable learning experience to set aside any preconceived ideas and just let the Bible speak for itself. I learned about the new covenant and how the old covenant was done away. I saw the absence of a Sabbath command in the new covenant and read the texts in Colossians and Galatians and Hebrews for what they plainly said. There was actually a point in time that I can remember where I was reading the Bible and the veil lifted for me. (2 Cor 3) Still, in my stubborn old self, I held on to the Sabbath for awhile after that and kept studying trying to find out if my new discoveries were incorrect. So when I took the step away from Sabbath observance I was fully convinced in my mind. Now, I was not one who hated the Sabbath. It was like a breath of fresh air and a very peaceful day. However, to a Sabbath observer it is hard to describe the difference now. While it was weird to not do all the Sabbathy things on Sabbath anymore, it was very freeing. It is like I have that breath of fresh air and peace everyday now. It doesn't matter if I am working all day or shopping or whatever that former Sabbath peace and joy is always with me now.

 

[OntheDL]

Sin is sin whenever it happens, however sin is not counted against the born again believer.

So are you saying if a person is "born again", he/she are free to drink, smoke, use drugs, and even commit adultery and murder, and God will not hold them accountable to their actions/sins?

 

[OntheDL]

However, the whole issue in your example is whether the Sabbath is indeed a requirement and whether breaking it is a sin. From the Adventist perspective obviously it is. But it is not in the list of things of the flesh spelled out by Paul. So in that respect it iis less clear to some.

Can you clarify that statement?

 

[ChrisCarol]

So are you saying if a person is "born again", he/she are free to drink, smoke, use drugs, and even commit adultery and murder, and God will not hold them accountable to their actions/sins?

I have come to know a SAVIOR who did for me what I could not do for myself; Died for my sins so that I may have eternal life,of which He my Father wanted for me from the beginning of time.

Now that I have realized that, and I also realize that I have brothers and sisters of the same Father whom I am to love, why then would I even think in terms of adultery, murder, stealing, those things which would hurt my brothers and sisters?

I do not think about sin. Sin is negative. I think about the positive: Jesus Death for remission of sins, His Burial for change and His Resurrection for my Eternal LIfe. When the positive occupies the mind then the negative is gone.

Ro 4
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Ro 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I do not live by the law. I live by the Grace of Jesus Christ and His Law of Love.

Galatians 6
2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[Eila]

So are you saying if a person is "born again", he/she are free to drink, smoke, use drugs, and even commit adultery and murder, and God will not hold them accountable to their actions/sins?

For one thing - drinking is not a sin. Wine is all over the Bible. Drunkenness is what is wrong.

What I am saying is that we can accept His righteousness or try to attain our own. I do not believe He gives us His right-standing and then we need to keep it up with our good works. When I accept Jesus as my Substitute my sins are gone - past, present, and future. They are not counted against me. Does that mean we will not suffer the results of sin in this life? Of course we will. We will also be accountable to God for the works we did while in the body. However, that is not related to salvation.

Just because someone is not under the law does not mean they will sin. We are now guided by the Spirit. The Spirit will not guide you into sin, but will convict you if you are doing something you should not be doing.

I think Romans 6 speaks to your question

" 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

We are dead to sin and now we are slaves to righteousness. It is our job as someone with Jesus' right-standing to act like we are righteous. We should not let sin reign in our bodies. Focusing on do's and don'ts brings us back under the law of sin and death. We have been freed from the shackles of sin and have been made more than a conqueror. Now as we behold Him we are changed. Our fruit, our actions reflect what He has already made us to be.

 

[Adventtruth]

Yours is very close to what I went through. Thanks

AT

I didn't give up on the Sabbath. My beliefs changed. After I started questioning Adventist doctrine I sat down and read the Bible as though I had never read it before. I took off my Adventist eyeglasses and saw the Bible in a new light. It was a valuable learning experience to set aside any preconceived ideas and just let the Bible speak for itself. I learned about the new covenant and how the old covenant was done away. I saw the absence of a Sabbath command in the new covenant and read the texts in Colossians and Galatians and Hebrews for what they plainly said. There was actually a point in time that I can remember where I was reading the Bible and the veil lifted for me. (2 Cor 3) Still, in my stubborn old self, I held on to the Sabbath for awhile after that and kept studying trying to find out if my new discoveries were incorrect. So when I took the step away from Sabbath observance I was fully convinced in my mind. Now, I was not one who hated the Sabbath. It was like a breath of fresh air and a very peaceful day. However, to a Sabbath observer it is hard to describe the difference now. While it was weird to not do all the Sabbathy things on Sabbath anymore, it was very freeing. It is like I have that breath of fresh air and peace everyday now. It doesn't matter if I am working all day or shopping or whatever that former Sabbath peace and joy is always with me now.

 

[OntheDL]

For one thing - drinking is not a sin. Wine is all over the Bible. Drunkenness is what is wrong.

If you look all the words wine in the bible in the Strong's concordance, they are translated from 19 different Hebrew and Greek words. Some are formented, some are unformented. One can not generalize and say the bible indorse drinking alcoholic wine. We need to look at each individual instance and determine which wine the text was talking about.

Consider the following text.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

Notice these above passages do not merely address the drunken issue, but the toxic quality of the alcohol wine. Bare in mind in the bible time, the alcoholic drinks were mild compared to today's hard liquor.

Ok, enough on that...

What I am saying is that we can accept His righteousness or try to attain our own. I do not believe He gives us His right-standing and then we need to keep it up with our good works. When I accept Jesus as my Substitute my sins are gone - past, present, and future. They are not counted against me. Does that mean we will not suffer the results of sin in this life? Of course we will. We will also be accountable to God for the works we did while in the body. However, that is not related to salvation.

The bible does not teach that when you accept Jesus all your past, present and future sins are forgiven.

KJV
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

AMP
Rom 3:25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

When you confess your sins to God, you confess the ones you have committed. How do you confess for the sins you yet to commit??? And even if you can do so, does it mean since you are forgiven, now you can go ahead and sin? I'd think not.

The confession and repentance mean you are sorry for you have done. If you are truly sorry, will you go do it yet again? Then how sorry are you if do it again and again?

This is exact what Romans 6 is talking about.

When I accept Jesus as my Substitute my sins are gone - past, present, and future. They are not counted against me.

Lets see what the scriptures say...


2 Cor 15:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Eccl 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It's true you can't do anything to earn your salvation. But these above scriptures tell us we are judged by our work for salvation (Mt 7:21, Rev 22:14). Because works reflect who we really are.

 

[OntheDL]

I have come to know a SAVIOR who did for me what I could not do for myself; Died for my sins so that I may have eternal life,of which He my Father wanted for me from the beginning of time.

Now that I have realized that, and I also realize that I have brothers and sisters of the same Father whom I am to love, why then would I even think in terms of adultery, murder, stealing, those things which would hurt my brothers and sisters?

I do not think about sin. Sin is negative. I think about the positive: Jesus Death for remission of sins, His Burial for change and His Resurrection for my Eternal LIfe. When the positive occupies the mind then the negative is gone.

Ro 4
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Ro 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I do not live by the law. I live by the Grace of Jesus Christ and His Law of Love.

Galatians 6
2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

That's all fine. The point here is that God is not unjust that He would do everything for one group of people who will receive eternal life while let the other group perish.

The point is that He died for all so all can receive eternal life. But those who do not chose to accept Him and do not let Him work in them will not receive eternal life by their choice.

Christ did for us what we can not do, true. But it does not there is nothing for us to do the plan of salvation. If that's the case, then why most of the people will not be saved?

 

[Jon0388g]

Let me clarify:

I believe the judgement of destination is settled on this earth. I believe all people are headed to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Upon death the person in God's kingdom goes to heaven and the person in the devil's kingdom goes to Hades. The righteous are in the presence of God and the wicked are in Hades. The Bible describes Hades as a place of tormet, but Hades is not the final destination. While the righteous are in the presence of God and the wicked are in Hades I don't believe that they are receiving rewards/punishment based on the deeds done while in the body.

Just after the second coming the righteous are rewarded for the works done while in the body and then they will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. At the great white throne of judgment the wicked receive their punishment based on their deeds done while in the body and receive that punishment in Gehenna. Hades is like a local prison and Gehenna is like a penitentiary.

Some of what I have said it is impossible to be dogmatic about because we are dealing with the future and some things the Bible does not specifically say. However, what I have written is what I believe.

Hi Eila,

The main thing I am concerned about with your opinions is that you do not back up a lot of what you say with Scripture. For example, I am quite confused at this "Hades" then to "Gehenna" business. I cannot think how you could come to the conclusion that once someone passes, they go to heaven/hell but do not recieve their reward until Jesus' Second Advent, and the wicked have to wait another 1000 years for their punishment, (even though they are tormented in Hades during this period anyway). Isn't being in heaven not reward itself? Doesn't the Bible say our reward is eternal life?

Another issue I have: I don't really see how a former Adventist could possibly now believe in a God which would allow the torment of His beloved creatures for all eternity. Disregard the Sabbath/IJ/EGW all day long - but the reality of hell is what Christiandom has got plain wrong, no doubt about it.

The 'immortality' of the soul is bad enough. Formers like to protest what kind of God would have to carry out an Investigative Judgment, and judge according to works, but you'll accept that He punishes the wicked in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity in return for 70 years of sin????

Jon

PS:

The body does exist in the form of ashes. I can take grain and grind it into flour. The grain still exists, but in the form of powder. If I throw the powder to the wind the powder does not cease to exist, but it is just scattered around everywhere.

???!!!

Eila - that is ridiculous.

Malachi tells us: "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evil-doer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the Lord of Hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

I didn't give up on the Sabbath. My beliefs changed. After I started questioning Adventist doctrine I sat down and read the Bible as though I had never read it before. I took off my Adventist eyeglasses and saw the Bible in a new light. It was a valuable learning experience to set aside any preconceived ideas and just let the Bible speak for itself. I learned about the new covenant and how the old covenant was done away. I saw the absence of a Sabbath command in the new covenant and read the texts in Colossians and Galatians and Hebrews for what they plainly said. There was actually a point in time that I can remember where I was reading the Bible and the veil lifted for me. (2 Cor 3) Still, in my stubborn old self, I held on to the Sabbath for awhile after that and kept studying trying to find out if my new discoveries were incorrect. So when I took the step away from Sabbath observance I was fully convinced in my mind. Now, I was not one who hated the Sabbath. It was like a breath of fresh air and a very peaceful day. However, to a Sabbath observer it is hard to describe the difference now. While it was weird to not do all the Sabbathy things on Sabbath anymore, it was very freeing. It is like I have that breath of fresh air and peace everyday now. It doesn't matter if I am working all day or shopping or whatever that former Sabbath peace and joy is always with me now.

The freedom that comes from responding to the true Gospel is indescribable. The burden that is taken away...the freedom of knowing that salvation is not up to us but up to Christ! Thank you for sharing. Most that I know wouldn't say they gave up on the Sabbath, but that they were led by the Holy Spirit. Most SDA's I know just cannot understand how the Holy Spirit could even lead someone OUT of the SDA church.

God bless!

 

[Eila]

The bible does not teach that when you accept Jesus all your past, present and future sins are forgiven.

KJV
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

AMP
Rom 3:25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

I think we interpret this text differently. The former sins were the sins not under the blood of Jesus. He passed over and ignored the sins of generations of people without the punishment due to them. The blood of bulls and goats was not able to remove the sin. (Heb 10:4).

In Acts 17 "30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

The times of ignorance have passed and now all men everywhere should repent. The sins of the past were referring to before the sacrifice of Jesus.

When you confess your sins to God, you confess the ones you have committed. How do you confess for the sins you yet to commit??? And even if you can do so, does it mean since you are forgiven, now you can go ahead and sin? I'd think not.

It isn't about confessing sins you have yet to commit, but as a Christian we can accept His right-standing. In Him there is no sin.

Colossians 3 says "1IF THEN you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.(A)
2And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.
3For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.
4When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory."

Here we see that we have died. Our old sinful self died and now our life is hidden in Christ. We are in Him and in Him there is no sin. So what do we do about our desires to sin?

"5So kill (deaden, [a]deprive of power) the evil desire lurking in your members [those animal impulses and all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]: sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites, unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness, for that is idolatry (the deifying of self and other created things instead of God).
6It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will),
7Among whom you also once walked, when you were living in and addicted to [such practices]."

We are to kill those desires that come against God.

"8But now put away and rid yourselves [completely] of all these things: anger, rage, bad feeling toward others, curses and slander, and foulmouthed abuse and shameful utterances from your lips!
9Do not lie to one another, for you have stripped off the old (unregenerate) self with its evil practices,
10And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect [b]knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it."

We are to put away those things that are against God and put on our new spiritual self that is being renewed into His image. Sin no longer has power over us. Jesus has given us the victory. When we cloth ourselves with His right-standing we become more like Him.

"11[In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There [c]is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [[d]who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [[e]everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].
12Clothe yourselves therefore, as God's own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself, by putting on behavior marked by] tenderhearted pity and mercy, kind feeling, a lowly opinion of yourselves, gentle ways, [and] patience [which is tireless and long-suffering, and has the power to endure whatever comes, with good temper].
13Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive].
14And above all these [put on] love and enfold yourselves with the bond of perfectness [which binds everything together completely in ideal harmony].
15And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].
16Let the word [spoken by] Christ (the Messiah) have its home [in your hearts and minds] and dwell in you in [all its] richness, as you teach and admonish and train one another in all insight and intelligence and wisdom [in spiritual things, and as you sing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody to God with [His] grace in your hearts.
17And whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in [dependence upon] His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him."

We are to cloth ourselves with our new nature. In this new nature we have been made holy and righteous. By looking to Him and clothing ourselves in His right-standing we become more and more like Him.

The confession and repentance mean you are sorry for you have done. If you are truly sorry, will you go do it yet again? Then how sorry are you if do it again and again?

I look at it a different way. If you are having problems with a sin it is because you are not understanding that Jesus already gave you the victory over that sin. We are free from the power of sin. If someone sins again and again I would say that they are either unware of their right-standing before God and that He has given them the victory or they are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 15:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I agree that we will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. However, our salvation is not by works and this is not referring to our salvation here. Those who are saved have already passed from death to life.

Eccl 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I do thing that every OC person should have kept the commandments, but no one was able to. The Bible says that those who don't believe in Jesus are already condemned, but there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Our final destination is not decided at some point in the future, but here on earth. We are all headed to hell unless we accept Jesus as our Substitute.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Those referred to here are ones who Jesus never knew. These were not born again.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It's true you can't do anything to earn your salvation. But these above scriptures tell us we are judged by our work for salvation (Mt 7:21, Rev 22:14). Because works reflect who we really are.

There is a discrepancy in the translation of Rev 22:14 - some versions say "do his commandments" and others say "wash their robes". Either way, the commandments given are to believe on Jesus and to love one another. No man can have right to the tree of life without Jesus.

Fruit are the natural result of being in the vine. That is the whole point though - we are in the vine and in the vine there is no sin.

 

[Eila]

Hi Eila,

The main thing I am concerned about with your opinions is that you do not back up a lot of what you say with Scripture. For example, I am quite confused at this "Hades" then to "Gehenna" business. I cannot think how you could come to the conclusion that once someone passes, they go to heaven/hell but do not recieve their reward until Jesus' Second Advent, and the wicked have to wait another 1000 years for their punishment, (even though they are tormented in Hades during this period anyway). Isn't being in heaven not reward itself? Doesn't the Bible say our reward is eternal life?

There are many texts that point to how we will receive rewards for the works done while in the body like 2 Cor 5 "10For we must all appear and be revealed as we are before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive [his pay] according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil [considering [c]what his purpose and motive have been, and what he has [d]achieved, been busy with, and given himself and his attention to accomplishing]"

Heaven is a gift. Our rewards relate to how we lived on earth.

Another issue I have: I don't really see how a former Adventist could possibly now believe in a God which would allow the torment of His beloved creatures for all eternity. Disregard the Sabbath/IJ/EGW all day long - but the reality of hell is what Christiandom has got plain wrong, no doubt about it.

The 'immortality' of the soul is bad enough. Formers like to protest what kind of God would have to carry out an Investigative Judgment, and judge according to works, but you'll accept that He punishes the wicked in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity in return for 70 years of sin????

Although we cannot discuss the issue of annihilation here, I will say this. When I read the Bible I took "forever" and "eternal" to mean what they say. God has nothing to prove to me. He is righteous and all-knowing.

Eila - that is ridiculous.

Malachi tells us: "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evil-doer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the Lord of Hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

I don't think you can take one text and base your theology on it when so many other texts say "forever" or "eternal". Did you know that many people consider these texts to be talking about the time of Jesus because Elijah was to come right before that? If you consider that to be referring to the end of time then you should be keeping the entire law of Moses (see verse 4):

"1FOR BEHOLD, the day comes that shall burn like an oven, and all the proud and arrogant, yes, and all that do wickedly and are lawless, shall be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.(A)
2But unto you who revere and worshipfully fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings and His beams, and you shall go forth and gambol like calves [released] from the stall and leap for joy.
3And you shall tread down the lawless and wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the Lord of hosts.
4[Earnestly] remember the law of Moses, My servant, the statutes and the ordinances which I commanded him on [Mount] Horeb [to give] to all Israel.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes."