Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Eila]

[/b]One of my favorite verses by the way. But let us back up for a moment.

Do you not both believe that the Spirit living in us willl change us from the deeds of the flesh to life?

Certainly! He changes us, not by outward (or inward) rules, but by getting to know Him we are changed to act like the righteous person we already are.

Even Adventists note that it is not single sins but the direction of the life--towards Christ or not, that makes the difference. Those who walked with Christ in the Scriptures made mistakes. We see them recorded in the Scriptures. But they were walking with Christ, and when they fell they got up again and walked with Him again. But to forsake Christ for a life of following the sinful nature is a life that ends in destruction.

I understand. However, I think our view of the nature of the recreated man is different.

1 John 3 "4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

This text clearly shows that a righteous person does not sin. I don't see how one can take these verses to mean that it is just the direction of your life that matters. Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

I think those texts can be looked at 2 ways. Either I need to be perfect and I am lost whenever I sin or I have been born of God and I no longer sin because I am in Him and in Him there is no sin.

 

[Eila]

I do not think you are deceived. Nor do I think you are being dishonest or led by Satan.

Although the error part...someone is always in error if there are two different points of view on a specific question that is asked about an objective reality. Sometimes it may be both.

When Christians disagree on interpretation it is not an insignificant thing. But we can acknowledge sincerity if not agreement.

Thank you Tall73. I agree that either one or both parties are in error. I no longer believe that any one person/group has the truth. The Bible is the Word of God and in it we find truth.

I do find that many SDA doctrines cannot be supported on the Bible alone and sometimes (not saying you do this) people interpret the Bible in the light of what EGW said.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Turning your back on the truth is wrong no matter how sincere you may be. IOW, sincerity does not equal being right or having the truth of God. This is the danger of rationalizing away the truth and hunting for context to invalidate the declarative nature and truth of a text. This also happens when you have accepted a false teaching all your life and will defend it no matter what. I've been there and done that. It's not easy telling it like it is sometimes because it hurts at times. I apologise if I have offended Eila but the truth is the truth , no matter how we slice it up. When the Bible says the soul that sins shall die then that is the truth. No rationalizing or contextualizing is going to change that.

I believe Eila is sincere in what she believes now but she has had to ignore or twist the Bible to get there. When the human mind wants to find a way to make the wrong seem right it will always find a way to make that happen if it searches long enough. There are no such thing as a perfect church or perfect religion. They all have problems and flaws of a sort.

There has been a few times in the course of our dialogue where I know she has run into very clear unmistakeable truths that should have turned her in the right direction but she has refused to turn from her path and see the light. This is where prayer comes in and I will continue to do that.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

I agree that until the creator takes care of things at the end of time that death is a sleep just as Christ says it is in John 11:11. However, when the Bible speaks of a soul dying it is speaking of eternal death. I will probably get in trouble for saying that because we are not allowed to discuss anilhilism of the souul on the GT board. The Bible makes it very clear that this will happen however. In particular it speaks of satan and Ezek 28:18 where it says " Therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee , it shall devour thee and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of them that beheld thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee, thou shalt be a terror and never shalt thou be anymore " This all equals soul destroyed and completely gone. How can you make the context change this one?



Pardon me dear sister but when you say you view them differently than I do what you are saying is that they don't say what they clearly say. You do this by either saying the context says or slants the meaning of the verse to mean something differently than I do. Or you say it only applies to what happens under the sun. However, the Bible does not say this in many other verses especially the ones that say the soul sleeps.



Not only twisting but ignoring clear statements like Ezek 18:4 that clearly says a soul is not immortal.

If we are not allowed to discuss that here, we probably shouldn't. I am not ignoring Ezek 18:4, you just don't agree with what I say about it.

My soul is what got saved. A soul, according to the Bible is a body plus the breath of life. I gave several texts that says a soul can bleed or get thirsty or experience any of the things a body can because they are one. What you are confusing is the texts in the Bible that specifically speaks of the spirit of a man. This is clearly part of the intelligencia or mind of a man not a separate enitity that he has which survives death. When you hear of a person spirit being broken you are referring to that person's psychi or mental attitude towards his surroundings. This is not a separate entity or phase of the mind that can exist outside of the brain.

So, the soul that receives eternal life dies and ceases to exist?

Spirit in Stong's Dictionary does not refer to a person's psychi or mental attitude. In fact, 1 Corinthians contrasts mind and spirit.

 

[Eila]

Turning your back on the truth is wrong no matter how sincere you may be. IOW, sincerity does not equal being right or having the truth of God. This is the danger of rationalizing away the truth and hunting for context to invalidate the declarative nature and truth of a text. This also happens when you have accepted a false teaching all your life and will defend it no matter what. I've been there and done that. It's not easy telling it like it is sometimes because it hurts at times. I apologise if I have offended Eila but the truth is the truth , no matter how we slice it up. When the Bible says the soul that sins shall die then that is the truth. No rationalizing or contextualizing is going to change that.

I believe Eila is sincere in what she believes now but she has had to ignore or twist the Bible to get there. When the human mind wants to find a way to make the wrong seem right it will always find a way to make that happen if it searches long enough. There are no such thing as a perfect church or perfect religion. They all have problems and flaws of a sort.

There has been a few times in the course of our dialogue where I know she has run into very clear unmistakeable truths that should have turned her in the right direction but she has refused to turn from her path and see the light. This is where prayer comes in and I will continue to do that.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

No Jim, you haven't offended me. I totally understand your viewpoint, because I was once there. If I am offended by what you say then I am condemning what I used to do. The Bible does say that the soul who sins will die, but the Bible does not say that death means you cease to exist. If something is burnt to ashes, the ashes still exist.

I don't think you understand my viewpoint Jim. Why would I leave behind my culture, my family, my sense of identity by twisting the Bible or ignoring it. It was by reading what the Bible had to say that made me come to the conclusions I have. I know you cannot accept that. I wouldn't have either 10 years ago.

 

[tall73]

Believe it or not Tall73, I did have assurance of my salvation as an Adventist. I know that is a rare thing, but totally possible. I was more of an evangelical SDA (although for a few years I was entrenched in legalism). Fellow Adventists straightened me out about the legalism and I left that behind many years before I started questioning SDA doctrine. But, dare I say, it is different - at least it was for me. Although I did have assurance as an Adventist, it isn't quite the same as the assurance I have now. I knew I was saved, but thought that maybe if I did a bunch of bad things I would lose my salvation. That is quite different from the assurance I have now. The only thing I can do to lose my salvation is to deny Christ and walk away from Him forever and there is no way I am ever doing that. I may have walked away from the SDA church, but I am never walking away from Him.

I hear where you are coming from. And I know a number of Adventists with assurance

The issue is not the committing a lot of sins. The issue is the relationship. But it is quite hard to have a relationship with Christ when participating constantly in sin due to the hardening effects. That is my point.

 

[Jimlarmore]

No Jim, you haven't offended me. I totally understand your viewpoint, because I was once there. If I am offended by what you say then I am condemning what I used to do. The Bible does say that the soul who sins will die, but the Bible does not say that death means you cease to exist. If something is burnt to ashes, the ashes still exist.

Can you please explain to me the significance of the existence of ashes as it may apply to anything intelligent, sentient or knowing anything? IOW, are you saying just because satan will be reduced to ashes that somehow the fact that some oxides of his soul remain that gives him an immortal soul? Please clarify this for me, I am confused.

I don't think you understand my viewpoint Jim. Why would I leave behind my culture, my family, my sense of identity by twisting the Bible or ignoring it. It was by reading what the Bible had to say that made me come to the conclusions I have. I know you cannot accept that. I wouldn't have either 10 years ago.

I'm going to assume something here that may be wrong and if it is I apologise but you have already said your husband is a charismatic missionary or evangelist. So to answer your question as to why would you would leave behind your culture, your family etc. it is simple. You left it all behind because of him and trying to keep your marriage harmonious. His way of explaining the inconsistancies in the scriptures made sense eventually in light of the fact that you saw a few things you questioned anyway and wanted so much to be in harmony with him because you love him so much. I've seen this happen many times myself.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

Certainly! He changes us, not by outward (or inward) rules, but by getting to know Him we are changed to act like the righteous person we already are.

By already are you are speaking of our state through justification, correct?

Ie...

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I am assuming that is what you mean. I am just clarifying because it could be read as a denial of original depravity, which I don't think was your intention.

I understand. However, I think our view of the nature of the recreated man is different.

1 John 3 "4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

This text clearly shows that a righteous person does not sin. I don't see how one can take these verses to mean that it is just the direction of your life that matters. Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

I think those texts can be looked at 2 ways. Either I need to be perfect and I am lost whenever I sin or I have been born of God and I no longer sin because I am in Him and in Him there is no sin.

The nature of the present tense in Greek is important here as a number of expositors have noted. See the below example:

1Jo 3:4 -
Sin is lawlessness (hē hamartia estin hē anomia). The article with both subject and predicate makes them coextensive and so interchangeable. Doing sin is the converse of doing righteousness (1Jo_2:29). The present active participle (poiōn) means the habit of doing sin. Robertson's Word Pictures, emphasis mine.

John does not hold that believers never sin:


1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jo 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


The passage that you reference goes back to his discussion of walking in the light as He is in the light, and walking as He (Jesus) also walked. The term walking is often used to portray a consistent type of behavior.

The issue is that the one who is born of God does not go on sinning. He is contrasting the false teachers who left, who were not really of them, who were sinning a sin unto death, and who were in danger of influencing others in the church. The Christians in the church on the other hand were the little children who do fall, but are forgiven, and are not to cast their lot with those who think there is nothing wrong with a continual walk in the darkness, a life of sin.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The issue is not the committing a lot of sins. The issue is the relationship. But it is quite hard to have a relationship with Christ when participating constantly in sin due to the hardening effects. That is my point.

Can we get specific here? If someone has decided to not observe the Sabbath because they have embraced this new covenant of grace philosophy. Is that sin for them now even though they have sincerely accepted this not fully knowing it is a false teaching? How about a problem with pornography , lying or stealing? If these things are sins but they now don't think they are imputed to them now does that make sin not sin anymore to them? You see I have a problem with all of this for many reasons. Once we really know the truth things can never be the same anymore. We can never go back again and be truely innocent. I'm curious as to what you feel on this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I'll pick this back up tomorrow, I have to go home and go to bed. I've been sick all day long and had to tough it out to stay.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

By already are you are speaking of our state through justification, correct?

Ie...

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I am assuming that is what you mean. I am just clarifying because it could be read as a denial of original depravity, which I don't think was your intention.

Yes, our state in Him - fully justified and sanctified. I am now righteous even if I don't always act like it. It is my job as a Christian to start acting like the righteous person He already made me to be. Original depravity is before one comes to Christ. Does that clarify it for you?

 

[tall73]

I'll pick this back up tomorrow, I have to go home and go to bed. I've been sick all day long and had to tough it out to stay.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hope you get well soon!

 

[tall73]

Yes, our state in Him - fully justified and sanctified. I am now righteous even if I don't always act like it. It is my job as a Christian to start acting like the righteous person He already made me to be. Original depravity is before one comes to Christ. Does that clarify it for you?

Yes, that was as I guessed. I agree, we are perfect in Him, and we are to take on the family likeness.

The reason I asked about natural depravity is because there are some, and I didn't think you were one, who believe people are innately good.

 

[tall73]

Can we get specific here? If someone has decided to not observe the Sabbath because they have embraced this new covenant of grace philosophy. Is that sin for them now even though they have sincerely accepted this not fully knowing it is a false teaching? How about a problem with pornography , lying or stealing? If these things are sins but they now don't think they are imputed to them now does that make sin not sin anymore to them? You see I have a problem with all of this for many reasons. Once we really know the truth things can never be the same anymore. We can never go back again and be truely innocent. I'm curious as to what you feel on this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

The one who escapes from sin and again is entangled is worse off than if he had never been free from the pollution of the world.

Just a paraphrase of Peter.

We would all agree when it comes to the life in the flesh, as is spelled out in Galatians for instance. Pornography, etc. would fall into that category. The one who has fallen back into a consistent pattern of sin is, according to Peter, in danger.

However, the whole issue in your example is whether the Sabbath is indeed a requirement and whether breaking it is a sin. From the Adventist perspective obviously it is. But it is not in the list of things of the flesh spelled out by Paul. So in that respect it iis less clear to some.

 

[Eila]

Can you please explain to me the significance of the existence of ashes as it may apply to anything intelligent, sentient or knowing anything? IOW, are you saying just because satan will be reduced to ashes that somehow the fact that some oxides of his soul remain that gives him an immortal soul? Please clarify this for me, I am confused.

I wasn't referring to the soul, but talking about something that you can see. The body even when reduced to ashes does not cease to exist. When the body dies it does not cease to exist and neither does the soul.

I'm going to assume something here that may be wrong and if it is I apologise but you have already said your husband is a charismatic missionary or evangelist. So to answer your question as to why would you would leave behind your culture, your family etc. it is simple. You left it all behind because of him and trying to keep your marriage harmonious. His way of explaining the inconsistancies in the scriptures made sense eventually in light of the fact that you saw a few things you questioned anyway and wanted so much to be in harmony with him because you love him so much. I've seen this happen many times myself.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I'm happy you summed up a very difficult time in my life to a "simple" answer. The reason why I left the SDA church in the first place was not because of the Sabbath or state of the dead. Those things changed later as I studied the Bible - noticed I said studied the Bible. I did not trust anything other than the Bible - no person, no book - just the Bible and the leading of the Spirit. I left the SDA church because the mission of the SDA church is to bring people out of Babylon - to evangelize Christians. God gave me a passion for souls and I could no longer justify belonging to an organization where the target group was other Christians and I will never ever be part of a group that thinks other Christians need to be evangelized. The doctrines of SDAism fell like dominos after I left because SDA doctrines are all inter-connected and when one falls the others are likely to fall too. I learned about the new covenant of grace on my own when I was studying the Bible, but I'm sure that is hard for you to accept.

 

[Eila]

Yes, that was as I guessed. I agree, we are perfect in Him, and we are to take on the family likeness.

I'm curious how you harmonize what you have said here with the Investigative Judgement.

 

[tall73]

I'm curious how you harmonize what you have said here with the Investigative Judgement.

The same way you harmonize it with the final judgment. The judgment is simply everyone else seeing what God already knew.

 

[Eila]

The same way you harmonize it with the final judgment. The judgment is simply everyone else seeing what God already knew.

Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure my viewpoint and your viewpoint of the final judgement is the same though.

 

[Eila]

I'll pick this back up tomorrow, I have to go home and go to bed. I've been sick all day long and had to tough it out to stay.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Praying for you Jim.

 

[tall73]

Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure my viewpoint and your viewpoint of the final judgement is the same though.

I wouldn't know until you told me your viewpoint