Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[tall73]

I can live with that for now. I like the fact that you said "IN US" instead of "THROUGH US" (as if WE were the ones 'obeying' with the 'help' of the Holy Spirit). It is completely accomplished by GOD (Holy Spirit) on behalf of sinners and not the other way around.

Let's see if everyone will weigh in on this starting point so we see where we are at.

 

[Jon0388g]

On the sin issue, and we will be covering this to some degree in the Sabbath thread as well, can we all agree that the obedience that is called for in the new covenant is worked out by the Spirit in us?

That would be a starting point. Then we can go on to definitions, what constitutes the law on the heart etc.

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

I can agree with what you have said, as Scripture confirms this. However, I would not go as far to say (as Freeindeed) that there is no conscious effort on our part as well.

Phillipians says we must 'work out' our salvation, knowing also that God is at 'work' in us. Also,

"..let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." Phillipians 3:16

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phillipians 4:13

Do you agree that salvation is 100% a gift from Christ, but that we also have a part to play in choosing to accept this gift fully?

Jon

 

[Jimlarmore]

Sorry guys, I had to be gone yesterday to have blood drawn at the VA clinic in Tulsa. I will catch up on reading here and be back shortly.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

I can agree with what you have said, as Scripture confirms this. However, I would not go as far to say (as Freeindeed) that there is no conscious effort on our part as well.

Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not.

Phillipians says we must 'work out' our salvation, knowing also that God is at 'work' in us. Also,

"..let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." Phillipians 3:16

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phillipians 4:13

This is the very passage I preached my last sermon on as an SDA pastor to a 2000+ member audience. I find it interesting you bolded the "I". Out of context it sounds like what you're trying to make it sound like. But in the context of what Paul was saying he says this:

10 How I praise the Lord that you are concerned about me again. I know you have always been concerned for me, but you didn’t have the chance to help me. 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ,[c] who gives me strength. 14 Even so, you have done well to share with me in my present difficulty.


15 As you know, you Philippians were the only ones who gave me financial help when I first brought you the Good News and then traveled on from Macedonia. No other church did this. 16 Even when I was in Thessalonica you sent help more than once. 17 I don’t say this because I want a gift from you. Rather, I want you to receive a reward for your kindness.

18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.
20 Now all glory to God our Father forever and ever! Amen.
​

As you will see when you read the whole context, this in NO WAY is talking about or even implying that WE (I) overcome sin with God's help. The whole passage is speaking of the fact that Paul has learned to endure any situation regardless of the circumstances. He has learned how to be content, even when he has no food.

Do you agree that salvation is 100% a gift from Christ,

Yes, 100%, meaning ALL of it!

...but that we also have a part to play in choosing to accept this gift fully?

I knew there would be a "but".

No, I don't believe we chose Christ. I believe he chose us and came after us and initiated all parts of salvation (100%). Our human nature was set against him and we would never choose him if he hadn't chosen us. Jesus saves! Salvation is not a cooperative effort on the part of both parties. We add NOTHING to the free gift of salvation Christ offers through his sacrifice on our behalf.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not.

I'm going to hit this one before I go back to some of your posts yesterday. What you are saying here is that we don't even have to have a mental ascent to the plan of salvation to make it work in our life. Nothing could be further from the truth. If this was the case then absolutely no one would be lost yet we know better than that from scriptures. The entire Bible is about God pleading for mankind to turn around and follow Him, both of these acts i.e. turning around and following are works that start in the mind and conclude with actions to change behaviours etc. This truth tells us one thing and that God honors man's free will to decide to follow Him or not.

No, I don't believe we chose Christ. I believe he chose us and came after us and initiated all parts of salvation (100%). Our human nature was set against him and we would never choose him if he hadn't chosen us. Jesus saves! Salvation is not a cooperative effort on the part of both parties. We add NOTHING to the free gift of salvation Christ offers through his sacrifice on our behalf.

So this means literally everyone in the entire world is saved then. How do you reconcile texts like Rev 20:9 then?

 

[freeindeed2]

I'm going to hit this one before I go back to some of your posts yesterday.

Please don't hit too hard. Can't we just discuss?

What you are saying here is that we don't even have to have a mental ascent to the plan of salvation to make it work in our life.

I didn't really say much about our mentality. I'm just saying that we don't save ourselves or add to Christ's free gift of salvation with our thoughts or actions. The Holy Spirit will alter how we think, but salvation is already ours when this takes place, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit living in us and making changes according to his (God's) will.

Nothing could be further from the truth. If this was the case then absolutely no one would be lost yet we know better than that from scriptures. The entire Bible is about God pleading for mankind to turn around and follow Him,

The entire Bible is about the salvic acts of God on behalf of sinful man. It was a perfect plan executed perfectly by Almight God because he is love.

...both of these acts i.e. turning around and following are works that start in the mind and conclude with actions to change behaviours etc. This truth tells us one thing and that God honors man's free will to decide to follow Him or not.

Scripture please.

Do you really trust in your 'free-will' to always make the right decisions? Consider the track-record of humans and what they (we) have done with 'free-will'...

So this means literally everyone in the entire world is saved then. How do you reconcile texts like Rev 20:9 then?

I didn't say that. I'm saying that there is no part of salvation (being saved, causing one to be saved) that is the result of our actions/behaviors/thoughts. If it was, then we could save ourselves.

Jim, did you manufacture your own faith? Did you cause yourself to believe in Jesus? Did you initiate accepting salvation? Is salvation a result of your actions? Do you not believe that the work of salvation is 100% God's work? 100%?

 

[Jimlarmore]

No sir. I'm addressing these questions to a denomination that believes those who aren't keeping the Sabbath by the end of time will be lost (unless receiving the Mark of the Beast does NOT mean they are lost).

How does that change the truth of keeping the Sabbath or not? You're stuck in this act of looking somewhere else besides God's word to frame your belief system on the Sabbath. You are trying to build an arguement based on what other men have done and not what God tells us to do in His word. What difference does it make what the SDA church does or teaches for you personally? Your criticism will not affect the truth in the Bible concerning this. You seem to be more interested in denigrating a denomination than finding the truth.

And sure I take issue with how SDA's 'keep' the Sabbath. The church teaches that all must keep it but can't define how it should be kept, and they don't keep it how it was given! Who wouldn't take issue with that?

When I became an adventist I was told a lot of things concerning how to keep the Sabbath. Some told me the way the old school adventists kept it. Some of the more progressives kept it differently. So how did all of that effect me and my relationship with Christ? Not one iotta. The Sabbath is for communion with my creator and enjoying His creation or family time.
When I read in Isaiah to turn my foot away from doing my own pleasure on the Sabbath and call the Sabbath a delight then I know that the Sabbath is not for watching T.V. or going to basketball games. It's holy hours set aside for communion with God and to refresh my body both physically and spiritually.

It stood firmly in place UNTIL its fulfillment, which Jesus clearly told the people he had come to do.

This mindset is a bulwark for you guys because it sets up your whole idea that the law is gone or done away with. Why would Christ do away a law He established and wrote on tables of stone? The only fulfilled law was the laws pertaining to His sacrifice on the cross.

The problem you have in your belief system is in the Pauline epistles we see Paul himself keeping the Sabbath . However, he clearly pointed out the requirements of the ceremonial laws like circumcision was fulfilled and done away with.

Please show me from Scripture that God MADE the Sabbath at creation. On the 7th day he RESTED from all that he had made (because it was completed!). He didn't MAKE anything on the 7th day.

You want to play semantic games so be it. In Gen 2:3 we find that God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath day both of which are acts of divine work to establish the end of creation week. Also, the fact we have 7 days instead of six tells us that this 24 hour period of time was made by God at the end of creation when God rested. If it wasn't significantly made at that time and set asidewe would only have a six day week not a seven day one.

Also, can you show from Scripture that God continued to rest every 7th day thereafter without making ANY assumptions?

God rested on the first Sabbath for an example to man and set this time aside for holy use. I can show from scripture how man kept it thru out the Bible including the Christ Himself. I can show how God will continue the Sabbath in the new earth after the sin problem is done away with.

Jim, do I need to go find the sources on this one. You and I both know that Adventism teaches that the Sabbath IS the seal of God. We both know that EGW clearly said the Sabbath would be the 'dividing wall' and the 'final test of loyalty'. I don't have the sources in front of me, but did you NOT know the SDA church taught this? I've heard many SDA evangelists (including Finley and Batchelor, Nelson, etc.) say these things while being on the platform with them (I was never on with Batchelor). Don't tell me I'm being disingenuous and inaccurate!

I will continue to say you are being inaccurate because you are in the fullest sense of the word. I have been to many prophecy seminars and listened to many evangelistic sermons and not one time did anyone say the Sabbath was the seal of God. This is heresy in my opinion and a false accusation on what is being taught. It's true that the Sabbath contains the elements of a seal but the seal of God is done directly by Him before Christ comes back. I'm not saying they haven't said that Sabbath observance will be an element that allows the seal of God to come on us but the Sabbath as a day set aside is not and never has been the seal of God all by itself.

Then you should have no problem explaining EXACTLY how it is to be kept.

No I'm not going to presume to tell anyone how they should maintain their relationship with their creator. The Bible has enough information to give us all a good base to go from. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Nice veiled accusation for those who do not live by the letter but by the Spirit. You have a difficult time realizing that the Holy Spirit has not convicted most Christians of the Sabbath, so you would rather accuse them of 'selfishly directing their own paths instead of following Christ' than accept the leading of the Holy Spirit.

No , I understand the majority of good Christians who have not been convicted of the Sabbath yet may be in the future and do God's will on this. In the end of time all will be tested as to what is right or wrong.

Now you should be able to see where the contention comes from. It comes when groups like SDA's tell all other Christians that they are obligated to keep the Sabbath if they love God, and then won't answer direct questions when asked EXACTLY how it should be kept. They go on to tell them they will receive the Mark of the Beast and be lost. Then they see the inconsistencies between SDA beliefs and practice.

I've never known of any leader in our church who intentionally refused to answer any question regarding what the Bible says on how to observe the Sabbath. Your accusation here shows what some of your agenda on all of this is.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Please don't hit too hard. Can't we just discuss?

Yeah, we can discuss, sorry if I came off as being brash here.

I didn't really say much about our mentality. I'm just saying that we don't save ourselves or add to Christ's free gift of salvation with our thoughts or actions. The Holy Spirit will alter how we think, but salvation is already ours when this takes place, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit living in us and making changes according to his (God's) will.

I agree it was Christ who persued us and it was Christ that did all of the hard things to provide my salvation. I also know the Bible tells me that it is the Holy Spirit who calls everyone to repentence however, I also know that it is my descision to accept this call or not. All of the texts that place life or death before the people i.e. Moses and Elijah, were beckoning to their cognitive descisions to choose life and God not death.

The entire Bible is about the salvic acts of God on behalf of sinful man. It was a perfect plan executed perfectly by Almight God because he is love.

Amen, but we also see literally millions choosing to not follow God before the flood and that many or more later and even in Christ's time when He performed miracles in front of them.

Scripture please.

Deut 30:19, Josh 24:15, Isa 56:4, Isa 65:12, Rev 3:20.

Do you really trust in your 'free-will' to always make the right decisions? Consider the track-record of humans and what they (we) have done with 'free-will'...

I don't think that is the proper question here. The question should be do I surrender my free will to my creator and the Holy Spirit to make the changes necessary for my life. However, I still have a free will to make the final descision.

I didn't say that. I'm saying that there is no part of salvation (being saved, causing one to be saved) that is the result of our actions/behaviors/thoughts. If it was, then we could save ourselves.

Our descisions and submission to the will of God does save us. It's a two way street. God can only do so much, the rest takes a mental ascent from us and a daily effort to take up our cross and follow Him who provided all for our salvation. Other wise we become automatons in the grasp of a powerful God who will save us whether we want to be saved or not.

Jim, did you manufacture your own faith? Did you cause yourself to believe in Jesus? Did you initiate accepting salvation? Is salvation a result of your actions? Do you not believe that the work of salvation is 100% God's work? 100%?

That old song goes like this I have decided to follow Jesus , no turning back , no turning back . Descisions and turning are all an act we make. I am not saying we are doing it all on our own because like I said the Bible makes it clear that God calls all to repentence but we make the final descision to comply with God's Will.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Adventtruth]

This truth tells us one thing and that God honors man's free will to decide to follow Him or not.

But thats just it Jim...men don't have free will, we have wills that are made free!

John 1:4-5 (KJV) 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:9 (KJV) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (KJV) 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

These passages plainly teach that life is in Jesus. It is He who shines on us that we can decide. Man is lost until Jesus decides to shine upon Him. Man has no clue of the gopel of God until He is allowed to decide by God. The nature of fallen men hate what is righteous in God. We have no clue when, but Jesus shines upon all in His timing not ours. We are not born with free will, we have wills made free!

AT

 

[freeindeed2]

I will continue to say you are being inaccurate because you are in the fullest sense of the word. I have been to many prophecy seminars and listened to many evangelistic sermons and not one time did anyone say the Sabbath was the seal of God. This is heresy in my opinion and a false accusation on what is being taught. It's true that the Sabbath contains the elements of a seal but the seal of God is done directly by Him before Christ comes back. I'm not saying they haven't said that Sabbath observance will be an element that allows the seal of God to come on us but the Sabbath as a day set aside is not and never has been the seal of God all by itself.

"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God." Great Controversy, p.640

"The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation...

The mark of the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of the week." Testimonies vol. 8, p. 117

From Amazing Facts study guide:
The book of Revelation tells us that there will again be a battle over how to worship and everyone will be identified by either the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

The study goes on to establish that the Sabbath is the Seal of God and Sunday is the Mark of the Beast.

I used to use this study guide when people wanted to know the 'truth'. Here's a link so you can look it up for yourself. Listen to Doug B. preach on this sometime. He makes it really clear what SDA's believe to be the seal and the mark. I'm not sure what prophecy seminars you've been to or listened to, but this is openly taught by the SDA church. I taught the same thing through the seminar guides when I did SDA prophecy seminars. Anyway, here's the link.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/mark_of_the_beast_2.asp

 

[Adventtruth]

This mindset is a bulwark for you guys because it sets up your whole idea that the law is gone or done away with. Why would Christ do away a law He established and wrote on tables of stone? The only fulfilled law was the laws pertaining to His sacrifice on the cross.

So Jim...what does this verse mean in its context?

Romans 4:15 (KJV) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

And why do you follow the ten words any ways?

The problem you have in your belief system is in the Pauline epistles we see Paul himself keeping the Sabbath . However, he clearly pointed out the requirements of the ceremonial laws like circumcision was fulfilled and done away with.

So is the keeping a Sabbath day ceremonial acording to Dictionary.com

a system of ceremonies, rites, or formalities prescribed for or observed on any particular occasion; a rite. Dictionary.com

You want to play semantic games so be it. In Gen 2:3 we find that God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath day both of which are acts of divine work to establish the end of creation week.

So whats your point?

Also, the fact we have 7 days instead of six tells us that this 24 hour period of time was made by God at the end of creation when God rested. If it wasn't significantly made at that time and set asidewe would only have a six day week not a seven day one.

So whats your point Jim?

God rested on the first Sabbath for an example to man and set this time aside for holy use. I can show from scripture how man kept it thru out the Bible including the Christ Himself. I can show how God will continue the Sabbath in the new earth after the sin problem is done away with.

Ok, so kindly show it.

I will continue to say you are being inaccurate because you are in the fullest sense of the word. I have been to many prophecy seminars and listened to many evangelistic sermons and not one time did anyone say the Sabbath was the seal of God.This is heresy in my opinion and a false accusation on what is being taught.It's true that the Sabbath contains the elements of a seal but the seal of God is done directly by Him before Christ comes back. I'm not saying they haven't said that Sabbath observance will be an element that allows the seal of God to come on us but the Sabbath as a day set aside is not and never has been the seal of God all by itself.

Jim don't know how long you have been Adventist, but I've been in this church for 20 years. This has been a teaching of the church.

AT

 

[Jon0388g]

Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not.

You said:

It is completely accomplished by GOD (Holy Spirit) on behalf of sinners and not the other way around.

and you've said:

"Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not."

That is what I said you said! lol

This is the very passage I preached my last sermon on as an SDA pastor to a 2000+ member audience.

Woah!

I find it interesting you bolded the "I". Out of context it sounds like what you're trying to make it sound like. But in the context of what Paul was saying he says this:

10 How I praise the Lord that you are concerned about me again. I know you have always been concerned for me, but you didn’t have the chance to help me. 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ,[c] who gives me strength. 14 Even so, you have done well to share with me in my present difficulty.​

15 As you know, you Philippians were the only ones who gave me financial help when I first brought you the Good News and then traveled on from Macedonia. No other church did this. 16 Even when I was in Thessalonica you sent help more than once. 17 I don’t say this because I want a gift from you. Rather, I want you to receive a reward for your kindness.​

18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.​

20 Now all glory to God our Father forever and ever! Amen.​

As you will see when you read the whole context, this in NO WAY is talking about or even implying that WE (I) overcome sin with God's help.

Freeindeed, the 'context' argument only works when the Scripture being taken out of context cannot be applied to any other situation, full stop. Are you saying, that we cannot do all things through Him?

I emphatically disagree if you are. Jesus said with the faith of a mustard seed we can command the mountains to tumble. He also said:

"...With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27

Even more blatantly, Jesus revealed

"And Jesus said to him, "If you can? All things are possible to him who believes." Mark 9:23

Elijah prayed that it would not rain. You know what happened.

If we pray with the faith of Elijah for God to help us overcome sin, will we?

I knew there would be a "but".

No, I don't believe we chose Christ. I believe he chose us and came after us and initiated all parts of salvation (100%). Our human nature was set against him and we would never choose him if he hadn't chosen us. Jesus saves! Salvation is not a cooperative effort on the part of both parties. We add NOTHING to the free gift of salvation Christ offers through his sacrifice on our behalf.

Freeindeed, what you assert is largely correct, but the error is very subtle. Please do not take offence. Salvation is a free gift, otherwise "grace is no longer grace" as Paul says.

But, a gift is something we still have to choose. If we have no choice in the matter, then it is not salvation - it is conscription.

What do you think of this Scripture?

"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel? ... But when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them." Ezekiel 33:11, 19

God Himself pleads for the wicked to turn away from their unrighteousness.

Jon

 

[Jimlarmore]

"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God." Great Controversy, p.640

The use of the english language can get us in trouble at times. What this appears to say is not what she meant to say. When she says the Sabbath is the seal of God she means the observance of the day according to God's commandment will lead to the seal of God. Anyone with a modicum of reasoning ability knows that this is not taken to be literal as it's read. No one that I know of thinks or teaches the day itself is the seal of God and this does not really say that either, read the context. A day Sabbath or otherwise is a 24 hour period of time and even though it's holy time that day in and of itself cannot seal anyone. Only God can seal someone. Do I need to show from scripture how and what seals us? If you read the context of this statement it's clear the observance of Sabbath in compliance with the commandment of God or Sunday in compliance with the commandment of man will lead either to the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

"The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation...

This is more like what I was saying before. The components of a seal are inside the 4th commandment but the day is not the seal. It's in observance and compliance with God or man that matters, not the day itself.

The mark of the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of the week." Testimonies vol. 8, p. 117

Again, the day itself is not the mark of the beast. Receiving the mark of the beast is a willful act on one's part to either observe by command of man to keep the 1st day of the week for religious purposes or just to survive ( i.e. be able to buy things ).

From Amazing Facts study guide:
The book of Revelation tells us that there will again be a battle over how to worship and everyone will be identified by either the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

The study goes on to establish that the Sabbath is the Seal of God and Sunday is the Mark of the Beast.

No it doesn't, you are making this all so skewed and confusing. The day is important but the day itself is not the seal or the mark.

I used to use this study guide when people wanted to know the 'truth'. Here's a link so you can look it up for yourself. Listen to Doug B. preach on this sometime. He makes it really clear what SDA's believe to be the seal and the mark. I'm not sure what prophecy seminars you've been to or listened to, but this is openly taught by the SDA church. I taught the same thing through the seminar guides when I did SDA prophecy seminars. Anyway, here's the link.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/mark_of_the_beast_2.asp

This just goes to show that an ex-ordained minister who preached a long time in a denomination didn't know what he was talking about for years and years and still doesn't for that matter.

Please explain to me how a day can and of itself do anything. You are trying to confuse those here who may be trying to find the truth.

 

[freeindeed2]

You said:

and you've said:

That is what I said you said! lol

OK. Here's what I responded to:

I can agree with what you have said, as Scripture confirms this. However, I would not go as far to say (as Freeindeed) that there is no conscious effort on our part as well.

I'm not saying that Christians make NO conscious effort to DO anything. I AM saying that any conscious effort on the part of a Christian is not what CAUSES them to be saved. If left up to our own will and desire, we would never make ANY conscious effort toward God.

Hopefully that makes what I said clearer.

Woah!

Freeindeed, the 'context' argument only works when the Scripture being taken out of context cannot be applied to any other situation, full stop.

LOL. The context of a passage is what it is. You're the one trying to apply what Paul said in this passage to things he was not even speaking to. Read it for what it says, not for what you want it to say. The context of the passage as I quoted it is clear.

Are you saying, that we cannot do all things through Him? I emphatically disagree if you are.

I absolutely AM saying that!

Can you save yourself?
Can you offer your blood for the sins of all humanity?
Can you become God?
Can you create something from nothing?

And the questions can go on and on. I agree with the exact reading of the text though, that Christ will enable us to endure in all situations we face here on earth, whether we have much or little, whether we are full or hungry, regardless of our circumstances, just like he did for Paul.

Jesus said with the faith of a mustard seed we can command the mountains to tumble. He also said:

"...With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27

A bit of Context:

25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
​

Do you see the difference from what you were trying to make the text say. It's not talking about OUR abilities, but God's ability to save those who cannot save themselves!

Even more blatantly, Jesus revealed

"And Jesus said to him, "If you can? All things are possible to him who believes." Mark 9:23

Who actually cast the demon out? Was it the power and will of humans or God?

It simply isn't saying what you want it to.

Elijah prayed that it would not rain. You know what happened.

If we pray with the faith of Elijah for God to help us overcome sin, will we?

That's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus overcame sin for us because we had no power over it. He ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IT FOR US. He asks us to trust in him for what he has already done.

Freeindeed, what you assert is largely correct, but the error is very subtle. Please do not take offence. Salvation is a free gift, otherwise "grace is no longer grace" as Paul says.

But, a gift is something we still have to choose. If we have no choice in the matter, then it is not salvation - it is conscription.

Have you ever seen someone in a hopeless situation get rescued? Like someone drowning? I lifeguarded for many years and had to rescue kids many times. Never once did I go ask them if they wanted to be rescued before initiating action to save them. I did not go rescue them because they mentally consented to it, or because they worked in cooperation with me for their own rescue. In fact, quite the opposite. Often, even though they didn't want to drown, they did things that would have only helped them to drown faster. They had NO power to save themselves. Someone had to go and save them or they would be dead.

Saving humans is God's business, not theirs. The only contribution we have made is to get into a mess (sin) we need to be saved from (and we're born needing to be saved, BTW!). We have NO power to save ourselves, and those Scriptures do NOT say otherwise. All praise is to Jesus our Savior!

What do you think of this Scripture?

"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel? ... But when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them." Ezekiel 33:11, 19

God Himself pleads for the wicked to turn away from their unrighteousness.

God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified. Israel was under the old covenant here too, and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything, offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law. Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet, and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.

Here's a simple question...did YOU turn from your sin? If so, was it by your own power and will, or was it because of God's power and will?

 

[OntheDL]

OK. Here's what I responded to:
...?

here is the question, I don't think I saw your answer...

If Jesus did it all for the sinners to be saved, there is nothing for them to do, then why the majority of people will not go to heaven?

 

[OntheDL]

God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified. Israel was under the old covenant here too, and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything, offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law. Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet, and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.

I didn't follow the whole thing. But obviously the above statement is not biblical.

The OT saints are saved by the same way the NT believers are: by grace through faith.

Genesis 15:6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The new covenant is the covenant of Grace. Wasn't Abraham saved by grace?

The New Covenant is the eternal covenant God instituted after Adam and Eve sinned. It has been in effect throughout the ages. You need to understand that Jesus dying on the cross ratified the new covenant.

The Old Covenant was never meant to save but was a provisional covenant that pointed to their needs for a savior.

 

[OntheDL]

And when God instructed Adam and Eve to sacrifice animals to cover their sins, wasn't that Grace???

 

[OntheDL]

God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified.

Justification is a continual, daily process: dying daily.

We are never justified once for all until after the final judgment and are granted eternal life.

 

[freeindeed2]

This is more like what I was saying before. The components of a seal are inside the 4th commandment but the day is not the seal. It's in observance and compliance with God or man that matters, not the day itself.

OK. So you would say that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God, and Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast. Am I right here? (Let's not get stalemated by semantics. I am fine with the word 'observance' being there if it helps us move forward in the discussion.)

Even so, you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God? And you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast? This is important here, because according to SDA beliefs it is the dividing wall or test of loyalty to God, and we will live or die by this issue. So it should be beyond the shadow of any doubt.

This just goes to show that an ex-ordained minister who preached a long time in a denomination didn't know what he was talking about for years and years and still doesn't for that matter.

You don't have ANY idea what you are speaking about. It's possible you have heard me speak and even had hearty amen's for things I said that you agreed with.

You didn't go through that study, did you? Are we allowed to post it here? I didn't write the study, I just used it and let people draw the logical conclusions that it highlights. Go read it and you'll see that it leads the person studying to conclude that the Sabbath (it's observance, if you will) is the seal of God, and that Sunday (it's observance) is the Mark of the Beast.

For example:
It asks:

Which of the Ten Commandments contains all the elements of a seal?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.

NOTE: The fourth commandment is the only one that contains all three elements of a seal: (1) "The Lord"--His name, (2) "made"--His office as Creator, (3) "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"--His territory.

Note under the next question:

NOTE: God clearly states that He gave the Sabbath as a sign of His power to create and sanctify. It is His seal, or mark of authority. The words "seal," "sign," "mark," and "token" are used interchangeably throughout the Bible (compare Genesis 17:11 with Romans 4:11 and Revelation 7:3 with Ezekiel 9:4).
​

It establishes that the Sabbath was the SIGN. Then it says 'IT IS HIS SEAL'. Taking it even further it says that 'sign' and 'seal' can be used interchangeably throughout the Bible.

A reader will quite easily conlcude that the Sabbath is the Seal of God. I know, because I've watched them do it over and over again. Adding that it's the observance of the Sabbath that seals the believer doesn't really change anything here. SDAism still teaches that it's man's own action or behavior (observing) that 'causes' himself to be sealed (even if they claim it's in cooperation with the Holy Spirit).

That is where I disagree.

Please explain to me how a day can and of itself do anything. You are trying to confuse those here who may be trying to find the truth.

Good question! Yet SDAism claims that salvation itself comes down to how each person observes a 24 hour period of time. Now you can see why I asked EXACTLY how it is to be observed, since it's not being observed like it was commanded.

And...JESUS is the truth that seekers are trying to find. He has authority over ALL things and in him alone is salvation, not the Sabbath. Jesus said this:

“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!" Jn 5:39

Eternal life is all about Jesus.

 

[OntheDL]

OK. So you would say that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God, and Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast. Am I right here? (Let's not get stalemated by semantics. I am fine with the word 'observance' being there if it helps us move forward in the discussion.)

Even so, you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God? And you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast? This is important here, because according to SDA beliefs it is the dividing wall or test of loyalty to God, and we will live or die by this issue. So it should be beyond the shadow of any doubt.

sign/seal/mark/token are all translated from one hebrew word: oth. The standard, the flag, the distinguishing mark.

Exodus 31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Ezekiel 20:20And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

According to the above scriptures, keeping of the sabbath is a sign between God and His people that they may know they are worshipping the Lord who sanctifies them.

The 7th day sabbath is a seal of authority of God.