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"Adaptations" and other "givens"

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And this is exactly my point! You are so convicted by theories that you find the mere mention of a person doubting these theories to almost be intolerable? I find that odd, and I'm a fan of ya, Maiden, trust me! :)

can you point me to a repeated experimentation where someone has proven this stuff? You're trained in science. I think that's wonderful! You seem to be implying that someone who doubts this evolution talk denies all science? Is it truly a package deal? If I don't believe that I evolved from primates then somehow I can't believe in other scientific realities? How is evolution a repeatable experiment you can show me in the lab? :confused:

Please don't conflate scientific theory with "merely a theory"; these aren't hair-brained ideas coming out of someone's rear end -- they're demonstrable by repeated experimentation. When people go the "merely a theory" route, as someone scientifically trained (three years of biology, genetics and organic chemistry), that's about the point when dialogue ends for me because they're typically a lost cause because they misunderstand on a fundamental level.

On the non-scientific end, I find more beauty in the idea of guided evolution than I do in the idea of de facto creation.
 
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"You seem to be implying that someone who doubts this evolution talk denies all science?"

no, I think she is saying that those who are quick to dismiss evolution do not understand how it works. Based on some of the comments, (eagles and turtles) I can see why she says that.

Again, it would appear no one is really reading what I am saying but rather seem stuck in the artificial dichotomy between accepting evolution as a secular theory/observation and the Orthodox faith.
 
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jckstraw72

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"You seem to be implying that someone who doubts this evolution talk denies all science?"

no, I think she is saying that those who are quick to dismiss evolution do not understand how it works. Based on some of the comments, (eagles and turtles) I can see why she says that.

Again, it would appear no one is really reading what I am saying but rather seem stuck in the artificial dichotomy between accepting evolution as a secular theory/observation and the Orthodox faith.

this issue is complex and cannot be dismissed with a simple waving of the hand. your idea may allow YOU to gloss over the thorny issues, but it's obviously not sufficient for others. if you want others to accept your idea you could do the hard work of addressing the issues and demonstrating why or how this is all an artificial dichotomy. engage the Patristic writings involved, engage the Scriptures involved - demonstrate your point - don't just expect us to accept it. and, as Rus pointed out, perhaps it is your dichotomy between the theory and philosophy of evolution which is artificial.
 
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rusmeister

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I commend those who ask questions and don't just accept everything uncritically, but certain forms of adaptation have been observed and are as factual as the sun being at the center of the solar system.

That being said, it is important to form our parameters and define our terms. To say that because we have observed adaptation in some cases necessarily means that it can be applied universally is indeed fallacious, but good scientists will acknowledge that this is not what they are doing. They are doing what the philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn explained. Scientists adopt the paradigm that best explains relevant observations. When a new paradigm is developed that better explains observations, the old paradigm is replaced.

If I were a detective and I observed a corpse with a knife in its back and thus assumed that this was the cause of death, my assumption would not be a logical claim that there is no other possible way in which events took place, but only that, given the evidence I have observed, it seems the most likely outcome. Likewise, in positing evolution and adaptation as the best explanations of life as we now know it, scientists are not necessarily claiming there is no other feasible possibility that explains life(although some might fallaciously make such a claim) but rather that there is no better explanation. The mistake scientists make is when prejudice leads them to unfairly rule out other possibilities.

I agree with you here, TS, except for one thing - the basis on which you determine what is " better". This, like ALL thought, is done through the prism of one's world view. I think people in general do not understand how philosophy works, that in our time the science has died, and no one is therefore educated in it - yet all other worldly knowledge is founded on it.

As far as I can tell, there is not a single Orthodox Christian here who has personally, with great knowledge and experience, examined all of the evidence alleged as such from beginning to end and followed the entire chain of the scientific method, forming hypotheses, experimenting, then theories and so on. Everyone here takes, at some point or other, and nearly all at most points, on faith. Faith that what they are told is TRUE. Faith that the scientists, in all of their effort and work and struggle, get it RIGHT. You have not really seen all of the evidence. You have seen bits and pieces, you understand what the claimants are trying to say and you accept it - on FAITH.

Rather than blow--by-blow responses - which might be better - Greg and Shieldmaiden might get that I see and read them and am addressing their thoughts, too - I'll say briefly that the discussion here is largely unphilosophical, because everyone takes their assumptions for granted. We are all guilty of bigotry, ladies and gentlemen, for the essence of bigotry is the incapacity to conceive of an alternative to our own proposition. If I asked what our first principles of thought are, I doubt that many could give clear answers.

All thought, all conclusions based on observed facts, are founded on a particular philosophy, or world view. That understanding of the nature of things is congruent or incongruent with the objective reality which we are all trying to apprehend. It is a tremendous mistake to begin from a conclusion, such as "evolution", or even "a (n alleged) mass of evidence that points to evolution", because the seeing of the direction pointed to is founded on said world view. Unless we begin from square one, and re-examine ALL claimed evidence step-by-step in light of Orthodox truth, we cannot possibly treat ANY scientific claims as having any degree of dogmatic truth. I, for one, do not insist on creation in 6 24-hr days for that very reason. I can conceive God creating things slowly OR quickly. It is my firm OPINION - based on philosophy, NOT scientific claims - that man was created specially by God, and NOT by evolution - that man and the world were not Fallen until Man fell, that death entered into the world by sin, not by the struggles of single-celled organisms.

It is very telling and usually ignored that the modern theory was introduced and championed, first by a very sincere agnostic, and then by radical unbelievers. Their entire philosophy, view of the world was wrong, yet we are asked to believe that they were right about the fundamental issue of creation. I used to give science and scientists more credit - until I figured out that they are wholly unphilosophical.

Oh, and a side note to Greg - if we say "evolution" can sometimes mean "change", then we are mixing and matching terms in a fatal misunderstanding in a discussion of the topic. Clarity of terminology is strongly recommended.
 
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Well I fail to see why the turtles and eagles comment would be a problem. I think back to college and phenotypic plasticity. Changes in an environment cause an organism to change its phenotype, or its morphology and other factors. So a turtle, after a while, reacts to its environment by having its body change, adapt, to surroundings that threaten its survival. I have stood there and heard folks propose this. This is what I'm addressing. So I'm not sure what you're implying about me here?

"You seem to be implying that someone who doubts this evolution talk denies all science?"

no, I think she is saying that those who are quick to dismiss evolution do not understand how it works. Based on some of the comments, (eagles and turtles) I can see why she says that.

Again, it would appear no one is really reading what I am saying but rather seem stuck in the artificial dichotomy between accepting evolution as a secular theory/observation and the Orthodox faith.
 
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jckstraw72

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Gurney, do you have the 2011 edition of Genesis, Creation, and Early Man? In addition to the innumerable Patristic quotations, there are also two appendices written by Orthodox scientists, which you would find useful. Dr. Yuri Zharikov, who has studied biology at 4 different universities and holds a PhD in zoology, writes:

... both Darwin and his followers have failed to understand and/or admit the critical difference -- in fact, the unbridgeable gap -- between variation within species and transformation from one life-form to another. The former is a manifestation of existing genetic variability in a species or population, and it is governed by the objective laws of molecular and population genetics. The latter requires the introduction of completely new genetic information, new blocks of genetic material, leading to increased complexity. The latter does not follow from the former.

The so-called allopatric and sympatric modes of speciation, whereby geographically or ecologically isolated populations with time become incapable of interbreeding and thus are designated as separate species, do not lead to increased complexity. In fact, they decrease genetic diversity, due to fragmentation of the gene pool present in the original population. Galapagos finches, studied by Darwin, are an example of allopatric speciation but not of an evolutionary event that involves the emergence of novel structures or functions. The same can be said about numerous other direct observations of speciation, such as those in plants and marine invertebrates. Such observations are irrelevant when it comes to inferring origins of life-forms differing in degree of complexity.
... and interestingly he later talks precisely about the turtle shell, and how the question of how to account for its seemingly sudden appearance has evolutionists perplexed!
 
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and later in his conclusion he writes:

It is true that populations of species are not immutable: they indeed can and sometimes do change with time, adapting to environmental alterations. People have known about this plasticity of plants and animals for millennia and have utilized it in the process of artificial selection. Any such change, however, happens only to a limited degree, and this change involves a loss (not gain!) of genetic complexity. Genomes are not free to evolve (that is, degrade) endlessly. There are impregnable genetic constraints on the extent of changes that can occur in the genome and can be expressed phenotypically before the organism breaks down.
the part i have bolded is the scientific side of the theology of the logoi that i posted about earlier (this is a true harmony between Orthodoxy and science that has a healthy respect for both the noetic visions of the Fathers and the observations of modern science [which is distinct from the extrapolations of scientific-philosophy] - not one that sacrifices the writings of the Fathers, relegating them to speculations hampered by ancient unsophisticated science).
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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And this is exactly my point! You are so convicted by theories that you find the mere mention of a person doubting these theories to almost be intolerable? I find that odd, and I'm a fan of ya, Maiden, trust me! :)

can you point me to a repeated experimentation where someone has proven this stuff? You're trained in science. I think that's wonderful! You seem to be implying that someone who doubts this evolution talk denies all science? Is it truly a package deal? If I don't believe that I evolved from primates then somehow I can't believe in other scientific realities? How is evolution a repeatable experiment you can show me in the lab? :confused:

My problem is when people say "evolution is just a theory" because usually they use it to dismiss evolution as a harebrained idea with no basis in reality (ie, conspiracy theory). The problem is in a fundamental misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is versus what a theory is in the English language outside of science. A scientific theory is made out of multiple testable hypotheses that have been repeated experimentally and not yet been falsified. With surmounting evidence that is falsifiable but has not yet been falsified despite repeated efforts, we come to a scientific theory. So, in average English parlance a "theory" is actually a hypothesis that cannot be tested. It's my experience that people who say "evolution is just a theory" typically have a poor understanding of the scientific method, and don't understand that a scientific theory isn't the same thing as a theory in everyday English.
 
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rusmeister

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My problem is when people say "evolution is just a theory" because usually they use it to dismiss evolution as a harebrained idea with no basis in reality (ie, conspiracy theory). The problem is in a fundamental misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is versus what a theory is in the English language outside of science. A scientific theory is made out of multiple testable hypotheses that have been repeated experimentally and not yet been falsified. With surmounting evidence that is falsifiable but has not yet been falsified despite repeated efforts, we come to a scientific theory. So, in average English parlance a "theory" is actually a hypothesis that cannot be tested. It's my experience that people who say "evolution is just a theory" typically have a poor understanding of the scientific method, and don't understand that a scientific theory isn't the same thing as a theory in everyday English.
Hi SM,
MY problem is that people almost never remember - or are even aware - that behind all thought, behind all interpretation of facts and observations, is a world view that shapes the understanding. If that world view is wrong, anything observed will be misinterpreted, misunderstood and wrong conclusions can be reached (even consistently, through repeated testing, for example). If a lot ofpeople hold a world view inconsistent with the ultimate objective reality, aka the truth, then they will even agree, giving an impression that a thing is true through mass consent.

So scientists can be very scientific and still wildly wrong. In our time the problem is compounded by the worship of modernity, what C.S. Lewis called the myth of evolutionism (please note the spelling carefully!), the idea that mankind is gradually improving, most especially in confusing perceived scientific and technological progress (progress towards what?) with a general improvement of mankind, what I personally call the myth of Star Trek, what the Soviets called "the bright future of communism". (And the Soviets had extremely good scientists, ranked among the best)

I don't need to be a scientist to be able to see the proper place of science (by which we generally mean the natural sciences, to distinguish from other kinds of knowledge) in human thought and understanding. I know that it can be helpful in our lives, but in our time it has assumed authority that is not due it. People forget that science itself, if it is true science, and not pseudoscience, must be subject to philosophy (and ultimately theology), and philosophy has been completely crushed in our time. There is no branch of knowledge in which people are more thoroughly and universally crippled, and the philosophy departments of our colleges and universities have made themselves irrelevant by ceasing to love wisdom, by teaching it as a smorgasbord/buffet where one can choose the "truth" one likes for himself; they are the least philosophical places on the planet. A farmer in Kansas is more philosophical than they, and I am afraid, than most scientists. The philosophical assumptions in the teaching of science and everything else lie unexamined, and so all thought and understandings are poisoned at the root.

I said before, and this has gone unanswered and unremarked, that you "know" most things that you think you know as an act of faith. If you have not personally traced out Einstein's work in detail, then your belief that he was a genius is a matter of faith in what others have told you. Maybe you have; then you would be the extremely exceptional exception regarding Einstein. But then there would still be a hundred other scientific dogmas that you accept as a matter of faith. And scientific progress (toward what?) cannot be made without accepting dogmas. But we must admit that that is what they are, dogmas, reasonable or not, right or wrong. And some of us think that the acceptance of the general dogma of universal evolution (as opposed to observed changes) causes scientists to progress... in the wrong direction, away from objective truth. For the very first truth about us is that we are Fallen, and that makes such "progress" probable to the point of inevitability.
 
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I wholeheartedly concur, Rus. If you look at the 'fans' of evolution, well, take H.G. Wells for example. The guy was a Christian. After reading Darwin, he took that on as a new type of religion in his life. And what did it lead to? EUGENICS! Eugenics is a natural progression from the evolutionary mentality. If human beings are meant to have this unlimited potential through evolution, why not get into eugenics? It makes plenty of sense. Wells turned on his Christian faith and drifted down, down, down. He coupled that bizarre marriage of hopeless despair with phony humanist optimism that makes me sick. Despite the supposed sunshine and joy at the limitless potential of man, guys like well are also the most dark, full of despair, fatalist types you can find. His eugenics led to racism and ultimately a hatred of the human condition that he considered DOOMED!

Wells was into reading stuff like Henry Drummond’s Natural Law in the Spiritual World. And what did that book seek to do? Well, it sought to do what we're hearing posters in here trying to do---reconcile evolution and Christianity into a marriage of common sense 'science' and faith. And the endgame for Wells was atheism.

Social Darwinism and nonsense like Hitler's survival of the fittest came out of the thinking of the age that guys like Wells and Thomas Alva Edison, Margaret Sanger, Winston Churchill, a whole gaggle of others bought into and they were all into eugenics.

So I get back to what you said, Rus. What is the motivation of these scientists who proclaim the religion of evolution? Is it Christian? Does the Divine Logos or or the Gospel or the Uncreated Light of God or the Fall, the Church or Communion of Saints, objective Truth and the Christian Hope, do any of these things really exist in the ethos of most of these evolutionists? Shouldn't we be exceedingly critical of such men or at the very least extremely cautious and ready to scrutinize their thinking?

I just think we need to go back to Chesterton's time and see the fruits of Darwinism and how it not only robbed many people of their faith, but also created all sorts of modern Deism, eugenics, atheism, secular humanism, de-humanization, racism, and other poisons.

Some say they find evolution beautiful and exciting and wholly compatible with the Orthodox way and Christian lifestyle. I guess I'd like to know how and why? Why would we need to imagine such things to be more in love with God or His Creation? If we look at evolution and make a simple, common-sense "pluses and minuses" chart, what are the mammoth pluses that evolution has brought us? Has it brought people closer to their faith or made them more into humanists and given them a new pseudo-religion? What are the fruits of it? Has it ever really INCREASED a person's faith?

I agree with your rationale and thinking, Rus, that the motivations behind these men are suspect and I share your frustration that few seem to see that....


Hi SM,
MY problem is that people almost never remember - or are even aware - that behind all thought, behind all interpretation of facts and observations, is a world view that shapes the understanding. If that world view is wrong, anything observed will be misinterpreted, misunderstood and wrong conclusions can be reached (even consistently, through repeated testing, for example). If a lot ofpeople hold a world view inconsistent with the ultimate objective reality, aka the truth, then they will even agree, giving an impression that a thing is true through mass consent.

So scientists can be very scientific and still wildly wrong. In our time the problem is compounded by the worship of modernity, what C.S. Lewis called the myth of evolutionism (please note the spelling carefully!), the idea that mankind is gradually improving, most especially in confusing perceived scientific and technological progress (progress towards what?) with a general improvement of mankind, what I personally call the myth of Star Trek, what the Soviets called "the bright future of communism". (And the Soviets had extremely good scientists, ranked among the best)

I don't need to be a scientist to be able to see the proper place of science (by which we generally mean the natural sciences, to distinguish from other kinds of knowledge) in human thought and understanding. I know that it can be helpful in our lives, but in our time it has assumed authority that is not due it. People forget that science itself, if it is true science, and not pseudoscience, must be subject to philosophy (and ultimately theology), and philosophy has been completely crushed in our time. There is no branch of knowledge in which people are more thoroughly and universally crippled, and the philosophy departments of our colleges and universities have made themselves irrelevant by ceasing to love wisdom, by teaching it as a smorgasbord/buffet where one can choose the "truth" one likes for himself; they are the least philosophical places on the planet. A farmer in Kansas is more philosophical than they, and I am afraid, than most scientists. The philosophical assumptions in the teaching of science and everything else lie unexamined, and so all thought and understandings are poisoned at the root.

I said before, and this has gone unanswered and unremarked, that you "know" most things that you think you know as an act of faith. If you have not personally traced out Einstein's work in detail, then your belief that he was a genius is a matter of faith in what others have told you. Maybe you have; then you would be the extremely exceptional exception regarding Einstein. But then there would still be a hundred other scientific dogmas that you accept as a matter of faith. And scientific progress (toward what?) cannot be made without accepting dogmas. But we must admit that that is what they are, dogmas, reasonable or not, right or wrong. And some of us think that the acceptance of the general dogma of universal evolution (as opposed to observed changes) causes scientists to progress... in the wrong direction, away from objective truth. For the very first truth about us is that we are Fallen, and that makes such "progress" probable to the point of inevitability.
 
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jckstraw72

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"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the unitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." - leading geneticist Richard Lewontin, "Billions and Billions of Demons," in the New York Review of Books, Jan. 9, 1997, pp. 28, 31
 
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Some say they find evolution beautiful and exciting and wholly compatible with the Orthodox way and Christian lifestyle. I guess I'd like to know how and why? Why would we need to imagine such things to be more in love with God or His Creation? If we look at evolution and make a simple, common-sense "pluses and minuses" chart, what are the mammoth pluses that evolution has brought us? Has it brought people closer to their faith or made them more into humanists and given them a new pseudo-religion? What are the fruits of it? Has it ever really INCREASED a person's faith?

The fruits of it?

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



-- the poem by William Buttler Yeats
 
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Yes, the fruits of it. Everything bears some kind of fruit. What are the fruits born of evolution? Has the belief drawn man closer to God? Has it been a theory that has increased a person's faith or helped humanity to draw closer to God or appreciate His role in Creation?

All the fruits of the evolution mentality I see are secular humanism of the Gene Roddenberry variety or cynicism and atheism. It stands in stark contrast to the Fall where we were once perfect and in God's image, fallen from grace. Instead we were originally a simple organism that has developed into a more complex one, but in the end, truly an animal. And animals have animal desires, right?

I see atheism, humanism, eugenics, cynicism, social Darwinism, and other fruits. What do you see?

The fruits of it?

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



-- the poem by William Buttler Yeats
 
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I do see us living in a post-Christian world, no doubt. Most people are humanists now or "spiritual but not religious" whatever that means. Christianity is dwindling and so many of those who profess the faith are more into the Joyce Meyer and other evangelical self-helpish feel-good stuff. It's a secularized world, sadly.

I see humanity coming to the end of a 2000 year Cycle of Christianity, just as Yeats did, as well as Oswald Spengler, as expressed in his famous written work "The Decline of the West".
 
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rusmeister

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Rus, are you familiar with Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism? He too speaks of the philosophy of evolution. I think you would really enjoy it.

No, I'm not, but if I could get it, I would try to slip it in my reading list. It's hard for me to get hard copies of anything over here, though, and as to electronic ones, I'm still limited to what I can get for free.
 
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Kristos

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As G. K. Chesterton wrote, &#8220;In dealing with the arrogant asserter of doubt <in faith>, it is not the right method to tell him to stop doubting. It is rather the right method to tell him to go on doubting, to doubt a little more, to doubt every day newer and wilder things in the universe, until at last, by some strange enlightenment, he may begin to doubt himself.&#8221;
 
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Hi SM,
MY problem is that people almost never remember - or are even aware - that behind all thought, behind all interpretation of facts and observations, is a world view that shapes the understanding. If that world view is wrong, anything observed will be misinterpreted, misunderstood and wrong conclusions can be reached (even consistently, through repeated testing, for example). If a lot ofpeople hold a world view inconsistent with the ultimate objective reality, aka the truth, then they will even agree, giving an impression that a thing is true through mass consent.

exactly. people, even Christians (not singling anyone out), just assume evolution and don't think of how something like the Fall and the Flood would have affected the cosmos, or even that it did anything to Creation other than man.

if, and this is the operative word, if there was a Fall that affected the whole universe, and it was that Fall that caused death and decay in everything, then evolution would not fit in there, since there would have had to have been death and decay before man, not introduced by him.
 
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Sometimes I think these secular types just look at the 'whole field' of religions like Hinduism, Judeo-Christian religions, Islam, Buddhism, and other smaller folk religions, and they see that each religion has a different account of the creation ranging from Adam and Eve in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim vision and a churning sea of milk in Hinduism, and they figure that ALL religions just conjured up some silly story to explain the 'obvious' true science religion of evolution, putting it in colorful stories of yore. But we've all supposedly grown up past those ancient myths and have become more 'sensible' and adult. We now look to science to explain, and not this primitive shamanism. Christianity, to the humanist atheist is just another feeble shamanistic folk group trying to make sense of chaos using silly myths of a god-man walking on water and performing other fake fictional miracles. And to think that these primitives still believe this in the twenty-first century when we've come 'so far' to get away from this barbarism! That's how many of them feel.

At some point I do ask myself why Christians living in modernity are so quick to say they DO believe in the resurrection, virgin birth, multiplication of loaves, exorcism by Christ, resurrection of Lazarus, and YET they very quickly feel Adam and Eve and Noah and the other stuff is just too far-fetched so evolution MUST be the true explanation. I just wonder about that? LOL

exactly. people, even Christians (not singling anyone out), just assume evolution and don't think of how something like the Fall and the Flood would have affected the cosmos, or even that it did anything to Creation other than man.

if, and this is the operative word, if there was a Fall that affected the whole universe, and it was that Fall that caused death and decay in everything, then evolution would not fit in there, since there would have had to have been death and decay before man, not introduced by him.
 
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