"Adaptations" and other "givens"

[jckstraw72]

i've known a few true evolutionists in my day who really seemed to be consistent in their belief of it. they openly admitted that their worldview is shaped by evolution and they fully recognized and acknowledged that that is why they are not Christians. they also had barely more respect (if any) for the theistic evolutionists than for the "Creationist" types like myself.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Often the BEST you can hope for from those guys is a watered-down type of deism in which they grudgingly concede that it's REMOTELY POSSIBLE that some anonymous, uncaring, distant, cold clock-winder type of force is behind it all....and that's the best you can hope for!

i've known a few true evolutionists in my day who really seemed to be consistent in their belief of it. they openly admitted that their worldview is shaped by evolution and they fully recognized and acknowledged that that is why they are not Christians. they also had barely more respect (if any) for the theistic evolutionists than for the "Creationist" types like myself.

 

[jckstraw72]

Rus, what you have been saying is exactly what St. Gregory Palamas said, 700 years ago:

In Defense of the Holy Hesychasts (the Triads) 1.1.6, p. 20:
The practice of the graces of different languages, the power of rhetoric, historical knowledge, the discovery of the mysteries of nature, the various methods of logic … all these things are at the same time good and evil, not only because they are manifested according to the idea of those who use them and easily take the form which is given them by the point of view of those who possess them, but also because the study of them is a good thing only to the degree that it develops in the eye of the soul a penetrating view. But it is bad for one who gives himself over to this study in order to remain in it until old age.

and Kireyevsky too:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Polnoye sobraniye sochineniy (Complete collected works), vol. 1, pp. 118-19:
The sciences in their essential part, i.e., as knowledge, belong equally to the pagan and Christian world and are distinguished only by their philosophical side. [Roman] Catholicism could not give them this philosophical side of Christianity because she did not possess it herself in pure form. And so we see that the sciences, as the inheritance of paganism, have flourished powerfully in Europe, but have ended in atheism, as an inevitable consequence of their one-sided development … Christian philosophy alone can give to the sciences a correct foundation.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I ask forgiveness if I have asked you this before, jck, but are you in seminary? I can't remember?

Rus, what you have been saying is exactly what St. Gregory Palamas said, 700 years ago:



and Kireyevsky too:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[jckstraw72]

i graduated from St. Tikhon's in May. i wrote my thesis on Fr. Seraphim and his work on Creation.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Glory to God!!! And no wonder you know so much about this topic, given your thesis work on the matter!

May God bless your future ministry! So do you hope to become a parish priest or...?

i graduated from St. Tikhon's in May. i wrote my thesis on Fr. Seraphim and his work on Creation.

 

[rusmeister]

I just hope that those that believe the modern fashionable view (universal evolution of all life as opposed to observable change that we ALL acknowledge, AFAIK) get that the approach of those that disagree is not at all on the basis of being ignorant of or merely ignoring science (ie, of being ignorant savages "stuck in the past") but on an entirely different basis - that of looking at and through the worldview of the people who cooked these ideas up in the first place, which by now many thousands of scientists have accepted, taken and run with, vis-a-vis Orthodox doctrine.

If one refuses to believe that scientists could be wrong en masse because of assumptions that enable them to come to consistent conclusions that are consistently wrong, then what could anyone say? The ancient world believed in the 4-element theory, and Newtonian science was king until very recently. That's not "a final argument", only to say that ideas agreed upon by all can be overturned when a better explanation comes along, and that these ideas can be very popular for a very long time and seem like unquestionable dogma. And yet science by definition is not supposed to have unquestionable dogmas, only working ones.

 

[jckstraw72]

Glory to God!!! And no wonder you know so much about this topic, given your thesis work on the matter!

May God bless your future ministry! So do you hope to become a parish priest or...?

at this point i'm still working on figuring that all out -- who knows what God wants!

 

[ArmyMatt]

At some point I do ask myself why Christians living in modernity are so quick to say they DO believe in the resurrection, virgin birth, multiplication of loaves, exorcism by Christ, resurrection of Lazarus, and YET they very quickly feel Adam and Eve and Noah and the other stuff is just too far-fetched so evolution MUST be the true explanation. I just wonder about that? LOL

yeah, the way that I personally see things is that God is the only One who saw how it all played out from the beginning. practically every saint, even after Darwin, even those that were very well educated, reject evolution. that makes the choice pretty obvious for me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Glory to God!!! And no wonder you know so much about this topic, given your thesis work on the matter!

May God bless your future ministry! So do you hope to become a parish priest or...?

he make a darn good bookstore clerk, I can tell you that much

 

[jckstraw72]

he make a darn good bookstore clerk, I can tell you that much

awwww shucks

 

[ArmyMatt]

awwww shucks

the Elder Joseph the Hesychast book has been my companion since being put on radio guard. and the Fr Kosmas CDs on the Soul after Death were awesome as well.

all suggested by said clerk.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So you're on radio guard and not paying attention reading Orthodox literature? Well, as long as it's Orthodox....LOL

the Elder Joseph the Hesychast book has been my companion since being put on radio guard. and the Fr Kosmas CDs on the Soul after Death were awesome as well.

all suggested by said clerk.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So you're on radio guard and not paying attention reading Orthodox literature? Well, as long as it's Orthodox....LOL

radio guard meaning guarding radios in a tent to make sure no one steals them. the tent only has one entrance and my chair is right by the radios. plus it ain't that big.

and the radios are off so it's not like I am listening or anything.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

According to leaked info from Snowden, Army Matt allowed 317 radios to be stolen while reading hesychastic literature in the tent. The radios are now in the possession of Abu Nazir of Al-Qaida!

radio guard meaning guarding radios in a tent to make sure no one steals them. the tent only has one entrance and my chair is right by the radios. plus it ain't that big.

and the radios are off so it's not like I am listening or anything.

 

[ArmyMatt]

According to leaked info from Snowden, Army Matt allowed 317 radios to be stolen while reading hesychastic literature in the tent. The radios are now in the possession of Abu Nazir of Al-Qaida!

we don't have that many, and if I was engrossed in the literature, my nous would have been aware. not saying that I was, but I was either not that into the reading and would have caught a potential thief, or was engrossed in it and would have anyways. either way, nuthin was getting taken.

plus I downed a Rip it, so I was good

 

[jckstraw72]

but speaking of the Elder Joseph book, this is pertinent to this thread:

My Elder Joseph the Hesychast, pp. 399, 401-402,
One day I was saying the prayer out loud as I was carving wooden prosphora seals. All of a sudden, Geronda's prayers for me became so powerful that I found myself in a spiritual state that was no different from what Adam felt when he was in the Garden of Eden before the fall. It was something beyond explanation …

(p. 401) One other brother of our brotherhood said the prayer out loud constantly. His nous and his heart sought enlightenment regarding the nature of creation and the sweetness of Paradise. One day, after saying the prayer out loud for many hours while carving wooden prosphora seals, he suddenly fell into ecstasy. His bodily senses ceased temporarily, the eyes of his soul opened, and he perceived nature's language of glorifying the Creator. Not only his spiritual eyes but also his physical eyes were opened so much that he saw very differently. Yet in what manner his eyes had been opened, he could not even begin to explain to others or even to himself. Everything he saw and heard was foreign – supernatural. Everything spoke of God's glory: the singing birds, the blooming flowers, the trees with their flowers and fragrance, the sun, the bright day. He saw them, however, as Adam saw them in Paradise before the Fall. A revelation had occurred – an unveiling, a manifestation of a mystery that is hidden from us who see only with our physical eyes and now with those spiritual eyes. "Let every breath praise the Lord." (p. 402) Both the animal and the plant kingdom spoke of the glory, the magnificence, and the beauty of God. He was amazed ad astounded, but he could not say a word. His eyes shed tears – not because of his sins but because of God's beauty. How can the heart bear this revelation of God's beauty? Similarly, when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, everything he saw was one of God's theorias. His spirit rejoiced when he saw every creation and heard it praising God.

[FONT=&quot]pp. 348-349
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With our own eyes we witnessed many instances of his gift of clairvoyance. Once, when Geronda was still at St. Basil's Skete, he met a layman near the skete's main church. Geronda approached him and said, "You are making some serious mistake."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "What mistake?" the layman asked.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "I don't know," Geronda replied, "but you are definitely making some serious mistake."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Can't we figure out what it is?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Right now in the daytime we can't figure it out. But if you like, come down to my place at night."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "All right, Geronda; I'll come after midnight."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]After midnight, the layman went and met with Geronda. They began discussing things, and it turned out that this layman, even though he had a degree in theology, had written an entire book supporting Darwin's theory of evolution! [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Geronda said to him: "When you present a theory or an opinion, why don't you draw from the writings of the holy Fathers and Orthodox theologians rather than heretics who aren't even Christian! A theory or viewpoint becomes fortified when it is confirmed y the Bible or by the holy Fathers of the Church. You will not be welcome here in my hut until you renounce that theory."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The theologian acknowledged that he had an incorrect viewpoint with this theory and he asked Geronda to tell him how he had recognized it. Geronda answered, "When I approached you yesterday, a stench was coming out of you, and this made me realize that you have made some grave error." When it came to matters of the faith, Geronda tolerated no deviations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is INCREDIBLE!!! Glory to God! Thanks so much for sharing!!!

but speaking of the Elder Joseph book, this is pertinent to this thread:

 

[jckstraw72]

and the thing about the Elder Joseph passage is - there's only 3 options here:

1. Elder Joseph, the HESYCHAST, was deluded or fooled by a demon who created some temporary stench
2. Elder Joseph, the HESYCHAST, mistook a natural smell for a spiritual smell
3. Elder Joseph was right, and evolution is stank nasty

 

[ArmyMatt]

and the thing about the Elder Joseph passage is - there's only 3 options here:

1. Elder Joseph, the HESYCHAST, was deluded or fooled by a demon who created some temporary stench
2. Elder Joseph, the HESYCHAST, mistook a natural smell for a spiritual smell
3. Elder Joseph was right, and evolution is stank nasty

or
4. Elder Joseph the HESYCHAST lied.

seems to me only option 3 makes any sense