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"Adaptations" and other "givens"

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I'm glad you posted this, because this is exactly the problem with evolution and its proponents. Your post has a tone to it that implies a person who doesn't accept evolution (WHICH IS A THEORY, totally unproven) are in a category of wackadoodles who think there was no moon landing or who think the stars in the sky are little holes poked in a black fabric. You are comparing apples and oranges here. The moon landing and evolution? Really? One was modern and a work of NASA that we all saw and heard. The other is a patchwork quilt of various proposals of what COULD have happened millions of years ago with men descending from a simian life form that was supposedly originally some sea creature that evolved legs and sprang from the ocean to land....one supposes all sorts of conjecture based on some various skulls and bones and simple tools buried in different areas across the world, predominantly in Africa. I am supposed to believe that man descended from apes based on some isolated archaeological discoveries and conjecture, AND you would put this in the same category as Orthodoxy?

Are you really that unsure of Christ that you would put Him in the same doubt category as the idea that men descended from ape-like men to modernity? I find that....well, I find it a bit outrageous?

You seem to be making the implication that Orthodox Christians accept things with such blindness that they lack the common sense to see the plain, obvious no-brainers like a moon-landing? Am I missing your point here and reading too much into this? You seem to be struggling with your faith right now. Prayers and best wishes that you re-discover it. May the Theotokos pray for you and intercede where faith is lacking. Blessings, TS!

I'm not all that concerned. At this point I have faith in both Orthodoxy and a belief in biological evolution. Similarly, I have faith in Orthodoxy and belief that the moon landing really happened, but I must admit that if push came to shove I am more sure of the moon landing, and I am probably not alone in having a stronger faith in the moon landing than in Orthodoxy.
 
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rusmeister

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I'd encourage everyone to try to speak what they believe to be the truth in love, to incorporate love consciously, to avoid hurtful comparisons, to run "charity checks" on what we write.

That said, Army Matt's response to Greg was on target, and I liked Jack's last post.
 
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truthseeker32

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I'm glad you posted this, because this is exactly the problem with evolution and its proponents. Your post has a tone to it that implies a person who doesn't accept evolution (WHICH IS A THEORY, totally unproven) are in a category of wackadoodles...
Gurney, my brother, all I meant to convey through my previous post is that I have more confidence in the reality of biological evolution and the moon landing than I do the truth of Orthodoxy. Never did I say that I am just as sure of biological evolution as I am the moon landing. I brought up the moon landing just to provide a second example of something of which I am more certain than Orthodoxy in order to illustrate that I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing that there are things I am more certain of than Orthodoxy. I intended no "tone" as you put it, thus any perceived tone is on your side alone.

Are you really that unsure of Christ that you would put Him in the same doubt category as the idea that men descended from ape-like men to modernity? I find that....well, I find it a bit outrageous?
I find your description of evolutionary theory narrow and way too oversimplified, but yes. At this point in my life the evidence for biological evolution is much stronger to me than the evidence for Orthodoxy. I would not, however, say I don't have faith in Orthodoxy; I would rather say I have more faith in the reality of biological evolution.

You seem to be making the implication that Orthodox Christians accept things with such blindness that they lack the common sense to see the plain, obvious no-brainers like a moon-landing?
Did I write things that are no longer showing up on my end of the internet? You are inferring way more from my statements than I intended.

Am I missing your point here and reading too much into this?
Yes. Absolutely

You seem to be struggling with your faith right now. Prayers and best wishes that you re-discover it. May the Theotokos pray for you and intercede where faith is lacking. Blessings, TS!
If my belief that I exist is stronger than my belief that you exist, does this mean I struggle to believe in you, or does it just mean that there are different levels of belief?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I second this amen and will add that neither what is essential Orthodoxy or biological evolution theories have to be altered. Rather what must be altered is what some people think orthodoxy is.

I think that is the problem. for some reason when evolution and Orthodoxy come together in a discussion, it's always Orthodoxy that takes a back seat. you can quote countless Fathers and prayers that attest to this, and always folks will just say that the saints were not scientists or whatever. that is one of my problems.

and this is not directed at you truth, just what I have seen in general.
 
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jckstraw72

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in evolution, death is the great and necessary vehicle for development. death is embraced as natural, normal and necessary.

Carl Sagan: "The secrets of evolution are death and time—the deaths of enormous numbers of life forms that were imperfectly adapted to the environment; and time for a long succession of small mutations that were by accident adaptive, time for the slow accumulation of patterns of favorable mutations" Cosmos, 1980, p. 3.

Charles Darwin: "Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals [i.e. man, ed.] directly follows." Origin of Species, last paragraph

in Orthodoxy, death is unnatural, it is anousious, and it is the enemy so great that it causes the whole creation to groan, and only God Himself can defeat it.

Wisdom of Solomon 1:13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living. 14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth

compare Sagan and Darwin with the Scriptures, and St. Nikolai:

Death is not natural; rather it is unnatural. And death is not from nature; rather it is against nature. All of nature in horror cries out: "I do not know death! I do not wish death! I am afraid of death! I strive against death!" Death is an uninvited stranger in nature . . . Even when one hundred philosophers declare that "death is natural!" all of nature trembles in indignation and shouts: "No! I have no use for death! It is an uninvited stranger!" And the voice of nature is not sophistry. The protest of nature against death outweighs all excuses thought up to justify death. And if there is something that nature struggles to express in its untouched harmony, doing so without exception in a unison of voices, then it is a protest against death. It is its unanimous, frantic, and heaven-shaking elegy of death. -- Selected Writings

Orthodoxy and evolution are polar opposites
 
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truthseeker32

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I think that is the problem. for some reason when evolution and Orthodoxy come together in a discussion, it's always Orthodoxy that takes a back seat. you can quote countless Fathers and prayers that attest to this, and always folks will just say that the saints were not scientists or whatever. that is one of my problems.

and this is not directed at you truth, just what I have seen in general.
I think the issue, though, is there are a lot of things that a great deal of Church Fathers believed and affirmed and some of these things are no longer seen as dogmatic in Orthodoxy. For example, look at all the statements the ECFs make about contraception. If we defined our faith by what the majority of Church Fathers say about respective issues I think a lot of us, looking through a modern lens, would be uncomfortable.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think the issue, though, is there are a lot of things that a great deal of Church Fathers believed and affirmed and some of these things are no longer seen as dogmatic in Orthodoxy. For example, look at all the statements the ECFs make about contraception. If we defined our faith by what the majority of Church Fathers say about respective issues I think a lot of us, looking through a modern lens, would be uncomfortable.

right, but the Fathers that have come SINCE Darwin also reject evolution. Elder Joseph the Hesychast, whom jckstraw quoted, reposed in 1959. plus, contraception is not a dogma. life beginning at conception is. contraception back in the day would only have been abortive. nowadays it is not, so the dogma actually has not changed.
 
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truthseeker32

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contraception back in the day would only have been abortive. nowadays it is not, so the dogma actually has not changed.
This is actually false. People were using non-abortive forms of contraception before Christianity began.
 
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ArmyMatt

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This is actually false. People were using non-abortive forms of contraception before Christianity began.

huh, just looked it up and you are correct, so I stand (sit) corrected. but contraception is not a dogmatic issue. whereas where death came from is.
 
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truthseeker32

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huh, just looked it up and you are correct, so I stand (sit) corrected. but contraception is not a dogmatic issue. whereas where death came from is.
That is the question I think we need to focus on. The ECFs are important, but they can be wrong. We need to go directly to the stories and see if there is room in Orthodoxy for biological evolution. Genesis tells us God brought man from the dust of the earth, God instructed man to live a certain way, and man disobeyed. These, to me, seem to be the most crucial parts of the story. Whether or not there was an actual snake, or whether God really walked in the garden, or whether there were six 24-hour days are all secondary in comparison. Literal or allegorical, the key message remains the same: by disobeying God we suffer death.
 
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jckstraw72

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by disobeying God we suffer death.

while I strongly disagree with reducing the Genesis story to 2 or 3 statements (because the Fathers wrote hundreds of pages on this topic and say that God gave such precise detail through Moses out of care for our salvation), what you have said about death is of central importance (not the length of days or talking snakes -which are just distractions that theistic evolutionists tend to focus on). that we suffer death by disobeying is Orthodoxy. it is not evolution. Death is a natural necessity in evolution (it is according to nature). It is against nature in Orthodoxy. by acknowledging that death was NOT a natural necessity you are no longer assuming uniformitarianism, which is the very foundation of the evolutionary construct.


and also, in regards to contraception - an increased use of economia does not indicate a change in belief. Contraception is still missing the mark, but the Church is our compassionate Mother. Even in the Rudder you can see the canons giving lesser penances for the same sins over time. It doesn't mean they came to be seen as lesser sins, but the Church was condescending to the decreasing spirituality of the people. Economia is not a source for dogma, or lack of dogma.
 
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I wish people of the pro-evolution side would address jckstraw's very thoughtful arguments against evolution that we see him making in posts like 147. I also wish someone would also address Rusmeister's points that he makes about the issue. I have found their arguments infinitely more convincing and lucid than the pro crowd. The pro crowd, yourself included, insist that folks like myself have a crude understanding of these sublime scientific truths. You also all seem to make the claim that the evidence is tremendous yet we hear no examples that stir our hearts with conviction honestly....

If my meager understanding of evolution is so narrow, limited, and lacking, enlighten me as to my oversights and oversimplifications.

My apologies for seeing a tone that wasn't there.

As far as the lack of faith in Orthodoxy, that concerns me. I think when we come to the point that a scientific theory that, imho, has yet to be compelling at all, trumps our faith in Christ, we're in trouble. Christians acknowledge we believe in the Most Holy Trinity with faith, but evolutionists seems to insist God requires faith, evolution doesn't as it's as plain as the nose on one's face. I just don't see the convincing plethora of evidence.

I wish the pro-evolution folks would address the extremely insightful points that Rus or jckstraw made, particularly stuff like this from Rus:

the fact that evolution denies the existence of man, as basically insisting that there IS no such thing as a permanent species; there IS no point at which the evolutionist admits a finished product; it says that all things developed from we hardly-know-what and are continuing to develop into we-know-not-what. Ergo, there is no such thing as a static creature called man; in x million years we would, under this theory, "evolve" into something completely different and unrecognizable to us.
Gurney, my brother, all I meant to convey through my previous post is that I have more confidence in the reality of biological evolution and the moon landing than I do the truth of Orthodoxy. Never did I say that I am just as sure of biological evolution as I am the moon landing. I brought up the moon landing just to provide a second example of something of which I am more certain than Orthodoxy in order to illustrate that I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing that there are things I am more certain of than Orthodoxy. I intended no "tone" as you put it, thus any perceived tone is on your side alone.

I find your description of evolutionary theory narrow and way too oversimplified, but yes. At this point in my life the evidence for biological evolution is much stronger to me than the evidence for Orthodoxy. I would not, however, say I don't have faith in Orthodoxy; I would rather say I have more faith in the reality of biological evolution.

Did I write things that are no longer showing up on my end of the internet? You are inferring way more from my statements than I intended.

Yes. Absolutely

If my belief that I exist is stronger than my belief that you exist, does this mean I struggle to believe in you, or does it just mean that there are different levels of belief?
 
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jckstraw72

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Gurney, thanks for quoting Rus and reminding me of this argument he made. Just last night I was talking with a friend about how evolution seems to be a form of Nominalism, and it seems that Rus is essentially saying the same thing here (correct me if I am wrong, Rus). Interestingly, St. Macrina the Younger (the sister of Sts. Basil and Gregory of Nyssa) makes the same point against reincarnation and the migration of souls -- it erases the distinctions between natures!
 
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I think people bring up a lot of really salient points about the problems with evolution. One issue for me is the parentage of the human race. In Orthodoxy we see the First Parents and the Fall. God creates man in His image and we know from the Fathers, as jckstraw has pointed out, that humanity was in a pristine condition in which men and women didn't have physical problems like sexual urges, lust, constant hunger, cramps, illnesses, on and on. After the Fall, as Matt points out, mankind takes a nose dive. All of this pristine, holy, intended state of life falls to pieces and illness, predisposition to addiction, anger, jealousy, lust, intolerance and other weaknesses and sins enter the fray. So man was at his pinnacle in the close walk with God in Eden, only to fall apart and, if anything, DE-volve into a lesser state of life. Instead of existing in the uncreated light of the Holy Trinity, man now is lowered to struggle, fight, wander, question, yearn, ache, hurt, and swim through a sea of sin.

The Christian vision, especially the Orthodox vision, of man is one of a fallen being who had it all, and who is in the process of redemption through the intervention of the Awesome God who refuses to allow His creation to suffer.

We know in the Orthodox faith that EVERY facet of nature was affected in the Fall. The very matrix of nature was profoundly pierced with sin and negative change. Nature groans, aches, and is fallen with us.

We see the Holy Icon of the Resurrection in which Christ reaches into the depths of death and with His might hand, He pulls us out of the pit. He ransoms us from the disease of death. The icon shows Adam and Eve redeemed....a powerful imagery of a sublime reality.

Beyond the fact that God is said to have created man through breathing a soul into the dust of the Earth, we don't see, as Rus pointed out, this continually evolving man that gets better and better and more adapted and improved. We see a man who walked in God's light fall and drift and suffer great deformity of existence. We see a pinnacle, and a quick roller-coaster-like plummet. With evolution, man is a work of art that just keeps getting better and, in thousands upon thousands of years, will be even better and more sophisticated in design. He will only improve and adapt. This is NOT mankind. This is an illusion imho. As Rus noted, we cannot relate to a being in flux that only gets better. We can relate to a weak being that needs the Living God and CAN improve only through supernatural grace, God's love, responding to the abundant grace that the Holy Trinity radiates to us lovingly, prayer, and FAITH, can become like God again.

Evolution is a notion that is independent of God. It is not supernatural nor are the changes and modifications or adaptations or attributes of this being supernatural. Man reacts to environmental conditions and challenges and stress in evolution and physically changes for the better each time. It sounds like a Gene Roddenberryesque approach to mankind.

Why would Christ be necessary to come to Earth to redeem a being in flux who constantly changes and is never really 'human,' but an evolving creature that will turn into God-knows-what in millennia (assuming man doesn't wipe out his own planet first through his bungling stupidity with ecological destruction!) from now?

Evolution lacks a godly faith and replaces it with a secular humanistic faith. It also smells of the scholastics in Catholicism with this need to rationalize and explain and categorize the mysterious works of an omnipotent Lord in heaven. Why are we so quick to accept a God-Man who can walk on water, resurrect a corpse, heal a blind man, exorcise a demonically-possessed man, multiply loaves, and bring Himself from the bowels of hell, and YET we can't believe that God could make the Earth without going through hundreds of thousands of years of pushing a being from the oceans' waters onto land through australopithecines and homo habilis and homo erectus and eventually homo sapiens, etc. etc? Why can we accept the miracles of Jesus and then raise such an eye brow at the idea of God making mankind through His power without a Darwinian context?

One theme that I run into when debating or discussing this with pro-evolution Christians is that they are struggling to maintain their faith. They seem to question their convictions in Christ, second-guess, and in this thread we're even hearing folks doubting the Fathers on many levels.

If evolution makes me raise an eyebrow to God's power to create on-sight, to doubt the inspiration and blessings the Fathers were given by God with extraordinary wisdom and graces, if evolution causes me to second-guess the Orthodox faith....I say, AWAY WITH IT!
 
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Not too long ago, I was reading "On the Soul and the Resurrection" by St. Gregory of Nyssa. It was a difficult read, but I found his back-and-forth with his sister, St. Macrina, to be a fascinating one! I found the role of teacher that his sister takes on and how St. Gregory was struggling, to be very inspiring and powerful. But like I said, it was a difficult read for me. My mind really wanted to drift. Tough stuff! I read a little over half of it before I got a brain hemorrhage! LOL I was surprised when I read it how vulnerable St. Gregory was and how his sister was seeking, as she was dying, to instill a deeper mental assent, a more powerful conviction and clear understanding of the resurrection and such within him. It was surprising, but, as I said, tough to get into! I am not a seminarian, so I take a bit more effort in such things! ^_^

Gurney, thanks for quoting Rus and reminding me of this argument he made. Just last night I was talking with a friend about how evolution seems to be a form of Nominalism, and it seems that Rus is essentially saying the same thing here (correct me if I am wrong, Rus). Interestingly, St. Macrina the Younger (the sister of Sts. Basil and Gregory of Nyssa) makes the same point against reincarnation and the migration of souls -- it erases the distinctions between natures!
 
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Well, because I need to spend the next few days concentrating on getting caught up on writing assignments in Church history, I can't take the time to respond to individual posts. I am reading them, however, and find them well thought out and well presented.

In the mean time, for a show of different perspective, here's an excerpt from one of the texts I was assigned to study by the DVP course administrator, run by St. Vladamir's Orthodox Theological Seminary:

"The Book of Genesis covers a vast amount of time, stretching from the beginning of the world down to about 1500 B.C. According to geologists, the earth is at least four billion years old, and some anthropologists believe that we humans have been around at least two million of those years. The authors of Genesis did not know much about this long history, nor did they care. They wished to sketch instead a few highlights about human origins that had particular religious significance for Israel's view of life, and to record a few traditions about their own ancestors that would help them understand how they came to be a people and a nation." (Boadt pg.109)

... and also:

"The stories certainly disturb the modern historian. They have no particular 'facts' that can be located in a given moment, no eyewitness reports, and no direct connections to other events that are known. If taken literally, the dates they do offer cannot be reconciled with the findings of geology about the age of the earth, nor do the lifespans of people conform to the ages of ancient human remains studied by anthropologists. They are much more like "model" stories of how things should have been at the beginning, and resemble the literary creations of other ancient peoples. In all of them the moment of creation was not like any subsequent period of time. In that time the gods spoke directly to people. To the ancient mind it was a golden age; it was primeval time before history began.

In ancient thought, such time was expressed by means of certain traditional themes or motifs that were different from everyday language and experience. This type of literature is known everywhere as myth. Myths are not all of one kind, nor do they only speak of creation. They also tell stories of the gods, or of legendary heroes of old, or of the origins of customs and ethnic groups. In many cases, the myth is tied closely to a ritual action in worship and forms the dramatic explanation for an actual celebration. In other cases, the myth is etiological, which means 'explaining the causes' of something, such as why a holy place has its name, or why the gods made a certain creature, or why some tribe follows unusual customs. Myth allows us to speak of events of primal importance at the very beginning of time because it does not depend on knowing the scientific facts, but upon understanding the inner meaning of what happened and what purpose stands behind the event. It especially concerns itself with divine beings and their relation to the human world. It is not history in the strict sense, bit it surely is not anti-historical either. It is at least profoundly historical in outlook, for all ancient peoples knew that gods acted according to their relation with humanity. Past events and experience formed the grounds for future expectations of divine acts. By understanding the past we can better direct our lives, our worship, our prayers, to the gods, and better know what choices to make in the present moment.

The common themes and motifs used in myths are the symbols cherished by all ancient civilizations. These include creation in or near water, a fight among the gods for order in the universe, the defeat of chaos by a hero god, the making of humans from mud or other lowly material, and a death and rebirth of the hero god parallel to the annual winter and spring cycle of nature. They explore the basic contrasts of nature: sun and earth, light and darkness, water and drought, male and female, gods and human creatures.

Genesis 1-11 incorporates many such elements into its stories, and many of its individual incidents find parallels in the myths of other ancient Near Eastern peoples, especially the Canaanites, Babylonians and Egyptians. Clearly, the biblical tradition did not hesitate to make use of these literary forms. But this does not mean that the biblical 'myth' always has the same view of the world as does the original pagan story. So we must be careful to distinguish our use of the word 'myth' on two levels.

On the first level, myth is a story using traditional motifs and themes. It is not scientific or historical in outlook as we would expect; it is more like folktale, but it does convey how the Israelites saw the shape of the world---it was their "science," so to speak. A very good example of this use of myth is the description of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2: life originated in the East; there was a central source of water which split into the great rivers of the earth; the first man was made out of dust and the first woman out of a rib; God planted two special and unusual trees in the garden---the tree of life and the tree of good and evil; there was harmony between humans and animals in the beginning. These were all familiar parts of ancient descriptions of the world, and since Israel accepted them as true, we can say that the Bible contains many myths simply because ancient Israelites were not as sophisticated in their knowledge as we are.

On a second level, however, myth is a "theological" explanation of our relation to the gods, and often refers to ancient beliefs of a polytheistic nature in which natural powers were manifestations of the divine, where the gods were symbols of fertility and bound to the seasonal pattern of rainy and dry seasons, where each year the gods must reassert their power over the forces of chaos that threaten the world. When myth is used in this sense, we must be more careful about calling the biblical stories myths, for the authors of Genesis consciously intended to refute and contradict such a view of religion by reworking the traditional stories to remove any idea that there is more than one God, that the world is subject of chaos, that God is callous or uncaring, or that superstitious sexual practices are needed to renew nature. By telling the story of Genesis 1-11 as they did, stressing Yahweh's freedom and power versus human refusal of responsibility, the Israelites demythologized the myths---they destroyed the heart of pagan belief and reinterpreted the real meaning of the world in light of the one God who had revealed himself as Savior and Ruler to Moses." (Boadt pgs. 130-132)

But this is merely the tip of the iceberg, really, and I think, honestly, that I should refrain from sharing the many other things I've come to understand about us (humanity) and our religion. My faith in Christ seems pretty rock solid, but for the sake of those who have yet to find their faith, don't you think it best for me to remain silent unless I am helping them to be able to support belief in Christ alongside of belief in the validity of scientific knowledge? (Because for some, there may be no other way)
 
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Slide175darwin.jpg
 
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rusmeister

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I think the issue, though, is there are a lot of things that a great deal of Church Fathers believed and affirmed and some of these things are no longer seen as dogmatic in Orthodoxy. For example, look at all the statements the ECFs make about contraception. If we defined our faith by what the majority of Church Fathers say about respective issues I think a lot of us, looking through a modern lens, would be uncomfortable.

right, but the Fathers that have come SINCE Darwin also reject evolution. Elder Joseph the Hesychast, whom jckstraw quoted, reposed in 1959. plus, contraception is not a dogma. life beginning at conception is. contraception back in the day would only have been abortive. nowadays it is not, so the dogma actually has not changed.

Beggng your pardon, Matt, but I DON'T think TS's premise is right. I am now convinced that in general the modern surrender on contraception is a modern error of many people in the Church. Contraception, generally speaking, is a fundamental wrong, unnatural, and in defiance of God's plan, based nearly always - at best - on fears and material considerations. No one anywhere in Christendom, Orthodox Catholic or Protestant, EVER accepted "birth control" until the Anglican Church caved in circa 1930.

I think TS's general premise that the ECF's were in error in general is wrong and not Orthodox, as a rejection of the consensus of their wisdom in favor of our own.
 
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