"Adaptations" and other "givens"

[GregConstantine]

"I still stand on my position that many are conflating the theory with the philosophy"

I blame the media and the public schools for this.

 

[jckstraw72]

However, I still stand on my position that many are conflating the theory with the philosophy, calling the philosophy of Humanism and Naturalism with evolution, causing confusion and misunderstanding in communications.

unless you attempt an explanation this really cannot go anywhere. for instance, how does the problem of death apply to the philosophy but NOT the science?

 

[GregConstantine]

"unless you attempt an explanation this really cannot go anywhere."

I don't know how much more clear I can be. I've shown what I've written to others and they understood what I was saying.

 

[jckstraw72]

yes, you've been clear that you believe there IS a distinction between the science and philosophy, but I haven't seen you offer an explanation, unless I missed it.

As you've seen from mine and Rus' posts - the central question that we see is the question of death. you could address that in the context of the distinction between the philosophy and the evolution that you see. how does the philosophy of evolution conflict with Orthodoxy on this question but NOT the science? addressing a concrete example might help us understand what this distinction is that you see.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I want to echo jckstraw here. We totally need to look at the Christian, theological, philosophical implications of Darwin's theories, not just the science alone. We must look at this as a board game, if you'll all pardon my cheesy metaphor. We seem to have different starting places. My starting place is: Christ Jesus is the Son of Man. God made man in His own image. God made man to be like Himself, but man fell and needs God to restore the divinity within him and be reborn. If we start with God's creation and the Fall, we will come to a different place than the people who have a board that starts with "God made organisms within the ocean after a Big Bang in a sea of ammonia and other chemicals who later developed and adapted himself to leave said oceans and ascend onto land eventually becoming a homo sapien amidst other types of man like homo erectus and homo habilis and neanderthals. Eventually a bunch of these hominids killed each other off and somehow God gave ensoulment to two of them and jettisoned the rest.

Big-time different starting points. For me, God comes first. He is the source of all, end of story. For anyone who sees evolution as the first things, we have a totally different timeline and there are theological implications to that. For starters, Jesus came as God and took on flesh to become a God-Man who saves the human race....well, the human race of 2,000 years ago. Will that human being in 10,000 years be the same race that Jesus saved? And as Rus and Jckstraw said, how can we theologically and spiritually relate to a being in flux? In Christianity, unlike some religions, the BODY and the SOUL are joined. And I think that is what is lacking in this argument. It's almost like evolution adopts a type of gnosticism to it where body and soul are two different arguments and discussions? Adam and Eve and Christ as well as myself and everyone in this room are the same life form, static biologically for the most part, but spiritually growing....

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is the question I think we need to focus on. The ECFs are important, but they can be wrong. We need to go directly to the stories and see if there is room in Orthodoxy for biological evolution. Genesis tells us God brought man from the dust of the earth, God instructed man to live a certain way, and man disobeyed. These, to me, seem to be the most crucial parts of the story. Whether or not there was an actual snake, or whether God really walked in the garden, or whether there were six 24-hour days are all secondary in comparison. Literal or allegorical, the key message remains the same: by disobeying God we suffer death.

yes, but that disobedience is what brought death. there was no death until Adam sinned. the wisdom of Solomon makes it clear that God did not create death. the issue is death. to try to merge Genesis and evolution one has to say that man evolved from some primordial thing, or spotless and undying Adam was given a dying kingdom by an undying God until he fell and started to die with everything else, or something like that.

either way, you have death from the beginning, which God made and is therefore good, until the NT comes and all of a sudden death is the last enemy that will be defeated.

and while any individual Church Father can be wrong, their consensus is what the Holy Spirit speaks through. through the ages even to now they seem pretty clear.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I want to echo jckstraw here. We totally need to look at the Christian, theological, philosophical implications of Darwin's theories, not just the science alone. We must look at this as a board game, if you'll all pardon my cheesy metaphor. We seem to have different starting places. My starting place is: Christ Jesus is the Son of Man. God made man in His own image. God made man to be like Himself, but man fell and needs God to restore the divinity within him and be reborn. If we start with God's creation and the Fall, we will come to a different place than the people who have a board that starts with "God made organisms within the ocean after a Big Bang in a sea of ammonia and other chemicals who later developed and adapted himself to leave said oceans and ascend onto land eventually becoming a homo sapien amidst other types of man like homo erectus and homo habilis and neanderthals. Eventually a bunch of these hominids killed each other off and somehow God gave ensoulment to two of them and jettisoned the rest.

Big-time different starting points. For me, God comes first. He is the source of all, end of story. For anyone who sees evolution as the first things, we have a totally different timeline and there are theological implications to that. For starters, Jesus came as God and took on flesh to become a God-Man who saves the human race....well, the human race of 2,000 years ago. Will that human being in 10,000 years be the same race that Jesus saved? And as Rus and Jckstraw said, how can we theologically and spiritually relate to a being in flux? In Christianity, unlike some religions, the BODY and the SOUL are joined. And I think that is what is lacking in this argument. It's almost like evolution adopts a type of gnosticism to it where body and soul are two different arguments and discussions? Adam and Eve and Christ as well as myself and everyone in this room are the same life form, static biologically for the most part, but spiritually growing....

solid points. for me, death kinda makes God indecisive. if one believes that organisms evolved into humans, you have God creating death, proclaiming it good, then when He takes flesh all of a sudden He says that death is bad.

or, you have that man is unique and in Creation there was death somehow. so you have a dying Creation reflecting the glory of the eternal God, and He created that for a King and Queen that were made to live.....

and I think St Paul says that Creation is groaning for its restoration. but if you have fallenness and death from the beginning, there is no restoration. when something is restored, it is usually returned to it's former beauty, but with evolution there is no former beauty and therefore no restoration.

 

[jckstraw72]

or, you have that man is unique and in Creation there was death somehow. so you have a dying Creation reflecting the glory of the eternal God, and He created that for a King and Queen that were made to live.....

you the man, Matt.

Scripture (the Wisdom of Solomon) declares that God created no living thing to die, and St. Basil explains that this is in keeping with the nature of God. Referring to death as evil, he writes: “It is equally impious to say that evil has its origin from God; because the contrary cannot proceed from its contrary. Life does not engender death; darkness is not the origin of light; sickness is not the maker of health.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – 215) writes that the Gnostic heretics Valentinus and Basilides believed that God is the author of death, but God alone possesses life within Himself and is therefore not the maker of His contrary, death. Death is evil and not a creation of God, for all that God created is good. It “is not a living animated essence; it is the condition of the soul opposed to virtue, developed in the careless on account of their falling away from good.” Evil and death are anousios, and therefore St. Basil exhorts: “Do not then go beyond yourself to seek for evil, and imagine that there is an original nature of wickedness.” This is precisely why our incarnate Lord voluntarily underwent death, “the last enemy that shall be destroyed” (1 Cor. 15:26), for in daring to take captive Life, death was taken captive and destroyed.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The one piece I can just never figure out/reconcile with Scripture and history is DINOSAURS. How on Earth did those suckers fit into the equation?

 

[jckstraw72]

they were rocking out with man

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But in all seriousness, it does make me wonder what role the dinosaurs played and why God would create a host of monstrous reptiles to rule over the Earth only to disappear and man ascends? Weird, don't you think? Did God just create them for the purpose of fossil fuels?

they were rocking out with man

 

[truefiction1]

But in all seriousness, it does make me wonder what role the dinosaurs played and why God would create a host of monstrous reptiles to rule over the Earth only to disappear and man ascends? Weird, don't you think? Did God just create them for the purpose of fossil fuels?

I think He created them so that our children today would have real cool plastic prehistoric animal figures to play with.

 

[truefiction1]

I learned to read at 6 years of age by means of "Danny and the Dinosaur". A truly great book.

 

[jckstraw72]

the Dinosaurs were the main source of food outside of Paradise. T. Rex tastes like chicken.

 

[truefiction1]

the Dinosaurs were the main source of food outside of Paradise. T. Rex tastes like chicken.

My personal favorite: Pterodactyl wings dipped in Louisiana hot sauce. Yum!!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Notice how we're all dodging the question and turning this into a joke....

 

[jckstraw72]

sorry Gurney, i don't know what to say about the purpose of dinosaurs.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, I think it sounds like no big woop, but things like dinosaurs play into the evolution argument to a certain degree I think....Why would God create these beasts so massive, powerful, awesome, and dangerous, covering the Earth with them and then just wiping them out and putting Man on the planet? And with the Creation narrative, where do they fall in and why?

I think this stuff is fodder for pro-evolutionists to argue their case...

sorry Gurney, i don't know what to say about the purpose of dinosaurs.

 

[jckstraw72]

Well, I think it sounds like no big woop, but things like dinosaurs play into the evolution argument to a certain degree I think....Why would God create these beasts so massive, powerful, awesome, and dangerous, covering the Earth with them and then just wiping them out and putting Man on the planet? And with the Creation narrative, where do they fall in and why?

I think this stuff is fodder for pro-evolutionists to argue their case...

well the dinosaurs were created along with the other land animals on the 6th day. but when they went extinct, or what their specific purpose was, i don't think we can say. but they weren't wiped out before man came along - because, remember, there was no corruption or death before man sinned.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well the dinosaurs were created along with the other land animals on the 6th day. but when they went extinct, or what their specific purpose was, i don't think we can say. but they weren't wiped out before man came along - because, remember, there was no corruption or death before man sinned.

I imagine we will come to know at the end of the age, when even they will return in their glorified state. it could be a glaring humility lesson of God to tell us that we can't know everything, and that some things for now are only for Him to know.