Acts 18:4

[janxharris]

Nope! Verse 8 says that the word of faith is in the mouths and hearts of men PRIOR to their coming to faith. This excludes some men. Jesus said that the word had "no place" in the Jewish leadership of His day.

You have proven NOTHING. You are wasting your time and energy.

Paul did not preach only to those that would believe. Why don't you just accept that you were wrong?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827019-12/#post66094891

 

[janxharris]

Acts 17:2-5
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

 

[janxharris]

Nope! Verse 8 says that the word of faith is in the mouths and hearts of men PRIOR to their coming to faith. This excludes some men. Jesus said that the word had "no place" in the Jewish leadership of His day.

You have proven NOTHING. You are wasting your time and energy.

But the Jews which believed not

 

[Jack Terrence]

But the Jews which believed not

You are being evasive. Romans 10:8-10 is calling those who already have the word of faith in their hearts to confess the Lord Jesus. It is NOT a call to those who do not have the word of faith in their hearts.

In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith."

 

[janxharris]

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

We know Paul desired to save all, but he knew that only some would come - he knew that some would not respond to the gospel that he preached.

 

[janxharris]

You are being evasive. Romans 10:8-10 is calling those who already have the word of faith in their hearts to confess the Lord Jesus. It is NOT a call to those who do not have the word of faith in their hearts.

In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith."

In Acts 17:2-5 Paul preached the resurrection and some did not believe.

 

[janxharris]

You are being evasive. Romans 10:8-10 is calling those who already have the word of faith in their hearts to confess the Lord Jesus. It is NOT a call to those who do not have the word of faith in their hearts.

In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith."

This was the exchange:
Me:
It is not okay to tell one of those ones whom you say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

You:
Correct. And the apostles NEVER did that. They had the authority to know who would come to believe and they told THEM to believe in the resurrection.

You have been shown to be in error.

 

[janxharris]

Acts 17:2-5
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

 

[janxharris]

Paul preached belief in the resurrection to whomever. Not all believed.

 

[OzSpen]

Nope! Verse 8 says that the word of faith is in the mouths and hearts of men PRIOR to their coming to faith. This excludes some men. Jesus said that the word had "no place" in the Jewish leadership of His day.

You have proven NOTHING. You are wasting your time and energy.

My, oh my! What an example of eisegesis. This is what Rom 10:8 states:

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” [a quote from Deut 30:14] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim (NIV).​

To what does 'it' refer? It is the divine righteousness based on faith (Rom 10:6). The utterance/word Paul had in mind when he associated this righteousness with the words from Deut 30:14 was 'concerning the faith' which Paul and others were preaching.

Both examples of 'word' or 'message' (some translations) in Rom 10:8 use rhema and it means 'the thing uttered' (Lenski 1936:654). It is referring to the word/message that is uttered when it is preached, the content of which Rom. 10:9-11 demonstrates.

We know that the Jews from the earliest days of their lives as children learned the message/word of the Law by memory, so it was put into their mouths and hearts by that means. It was designed to enter the centre of their beings.

The view that you have presented to us in your interpretation of v. 8 is not based on the verse's exegesis. A Calvinistic commentator, William Hendriksen, confirms this in his exegesis of Rom. 10:8,

The apostle continues to "quote" the righteousness that is by faith. The quotation found in Rom. 10:6, 7 ended with the words of Deut. 30:13 [Rom. 10:8]....
There is only one way, however, in which this can be appreciated. That is the way of faith; for God's word, as revealed both in the Old Testament and in the New, is "the word of faith"; that is, it is the word which, in order to exert saving effect, must elicit the response of faith!
Paul now shows that the statement, "the word is close to you; (it is) on your lips and in your heart" is true (Hendriksen 1980:344, bold & underline emphasis added).
​

There is not a word in this text that says anything about ‘the word of faith is in the mouths and hearts of men PRIOR to their coming to faith’.

Oz

Works consulted
Hendriksen, W 1980. New Testament commentary: Exposition of Paul's epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic.

Lenski, R C H 1936. Commentary on the New Testament The interpretation of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans. Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers (limited edition by permission of Augsburg Fortress).

 

[Jack Terrence]

There is not a word in this text that says anything about ‘the word of faith is in the mouths and hearts of men PRIOR to their coming to faith’.

Wow! The word of faith must be in their mouths and in their hearts in order for them to confess the Lord Jesus. For, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Or is this principle canceled when it comes to salvation? Come on!

Salvation occurs upon the confession with the mouth. The mouth speaks that which already in it and in the heart.

Take a look at the passage Paul cites in Deuteronomy. The word of faith is in their mouths and in their hearts because God circumcises their hearts.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Paul preached belief in the resurrection to whomever.

No, he did not. He preached to those whom he knew would believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Wow! The word of faith must be in their mouths and in their hearts in order for them to confess the Lord Jesus. For, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Or is this principle canceled when it comes to salvation? Come on!

Salvation occurs upon the confession with the mouth. The mouth speaks that which already in it and in the heart.

Take a look at the passage Paul cites in Deuteronomy. The word of faith is in their mouths and in their hearts because God circumcises their hearts.

You still refuse to exegete Rom 10:8 and provide a response to the exegesis I provided.

If this is your approach to those who expose the eisegesis, I'll depart from the discussion as you didn't deal with the details of my post about Rom 10:8. I demonstrated from the text that it does not refer to what you want it to mean.

 

[OzSpen]

This was the exchange:
Me:
It is not okay to tell one of those ones whom you say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

You:
Correct. And the apostles NEVER did that. They had the authority to know who would come to believe and they told THEM to believe in the resurrection.

You have been shown to be in error.

 

[OzSpen]

No, he did not. He preached to those whom he knew would believe.

Please show us from the texts.

 

[rick357]

Paul preached belief in the resurrection to whomever. Not all believed.

The word is preached to all for as men on the earth we can not know mens heart only God can but those he has known from the beggining by his forknowledge does he extend grace to. Grace is the gift of God living in us and through us. Some men may believe its true and walk in the word for a season but their heart is far from him. These are not in grace but in a faith that is about improving the self for acceptance or multitude of earthly reasons. So yes they may believe Jesus died for them and paid their debt so they exibit faith but it is not faith through grace(the gift of God in and through us)to know God is not to gain information about him that is learning... To know God is to experiance him moving breathing loving and working through you

 

[Jack Terrence]

You have been shown to be in error.

No! Jesus conferred on the apostles the SAME AUTHORITY He had Himself. Jesus had the authority to know who would believe. Likewise, the apostles had the same authority to know who would believe. Paul said that he would go to the Gentiles for "they will listen." Paul knew that they would listen.

Peter knew the heart of Simon the sorcerer. Lydia confessed that the apostles had the authority to judge whether or not she was a true believer.

It makes absolutely no sense at all that the apostles would preach to those whom they knew would not believe. And it makes no sense that Christ would die for them.

The only way your theology can work is if you are an Open Theist who denies the foreknowledge of God.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Please show us from the texts.

I already have and the texts have been rejected by Janx and FG2. Jesus said to His apostles, "Whosoever's sins you shall remit, they shall be remitted. Whosoever's sins you shal retain, they shall be retained."

 

[OzSpen]

I already have and the texts have been rejected by Janx and FG2. Jesus said to His apostles, "Whosoever's sins you shall remit, they shall be remitted. Whosoever's sins you shal retain, they shall be retained."

Do you mean John 20:23? It states: 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld' (ESV).

What's the meaning of 'any'?

 

[OzSpen]

Wow! The word of faith must be in their mouths and in their hearts in order for them to confess the Lord Jesus. For, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Or is this principle canceled when it comes to salvation? Come on!

Salvation occurs upon the confession with the mouth. The mouth speaks that which already in it and in the heart.

Take a look at the passage Paul cites in Deuteronomy. The word of faith is in their mouths and in their hearts because God circumcises their hearts.

Again, you refused to respond to the exegesis of the text (Rom 10:8) I provided. You're off and running with your own presuppositions. You refuse to deal with the content of what I posted - the exegesis.