Acts 18:4

FreeGrace2

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Acts 18:4
And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

What was Paul trying to persuade the Jews and Greeks of?

And how does this comport with reformed theology which claims that Christ didn't die for everyone?

Yet, Paul tried to persuade everyone.

It is clear that Paul believed that Christ died for everyone and the gospel was good news for everyone.

There is no other way to understand Acts 18:4.
 

janxharris

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This too:

Ibid. v.5
When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah.

Paul is preaching and testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah who may not have died for some of those he is preaching to? Obviously not true - we know Paul desired the salvation of his kinsmen and told them it was not to difficult or beyond their reach.

Unconditional election/particular atonement leaves some without the option of salvation.

The contradiction here is stark.
 
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FreeGrace2

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This too:

Ibid. v.5
When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah.

Paul is preaching and testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah who may not have died for some of those he is preaching to? Obviously not true - we know Paul desired the salvation of his kinsmen and told them it was not to difficult or beyond their reach.

Unconditional election/particular atonement leaves some without the option of salvation.

The contradiction here is stark.
Excellent point! :thumbsup:

Thanks.
 
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janxharris

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What was Paul trying to persuade the Jews and Greeks of?

To the Jews - this:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame." (Romans 10:1-11)

And how does this comport with reformed theology which claims that Christ didn't die for everyone?

Yet, Paul tried to persuade everyone.

It is clear that Paul believed that Christ died for everyone and the gospel was good news for everyone.

There is no other way to understand Acts 18:4.

It's the blue whale in the room.
 
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heymikey80

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Means.

The Spirit of God changes the heart of a person, but rarely tells that person miraculously about the facts of the gospel. He has set up His people to follow His lead, and bring the facts and unveil the people to those facts, whose hearts are being changed by Him.

People whose hearts are changed by the Spirit are not free of sin or error in understanding God. Their hearts, the inclinations of their wills, have turned. But what do they turn to? The Spirit of God brings people as well. He brings other people who know, show, and tell of God.
 
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Hammster

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Acts 18:4
And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

What was Paul trying to persuade the Jews and Greeks of?

And how does this comport with reformed theology which claims that Christ didn't die for everyone?

Yet, Paul tried to persuade everyone.

It is clear that Paul believed that Christ died for everyone and the gospel was good news for everyone.

There is no other way to understand Acts 18:4.

Of course he tried to persuade everyone. He didn't know who the elect were.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Of course he tried to persuade everyone. He didn't know who the elect were.
Which has been the WHOLE point. Trying to persuade those for whom Christ didn't die is totally DISHONEST and a LIE.

It seems that you don't actually understand what "persuade" means. It means that Paul WANTED all of them to believe.

If RT was correct about Christ not dying for everyone, Paul would have well known that many could not be persuaded. Yet, that's not what Scripture presents.

And why would Paul waste his time trying to persuade anyone for whom Christ didn't die?

He would have known that all he needed to do was hum a few bars of "Just As I Am" and the "elect" would all march forward. ^_^

Seriously, consider Thayer's:
peithō

1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto, i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

This word will clearly not work on those for whom Christ didn't die. Yet that is exactly what Paul did.

Sometimes the truth hurts, huh. Especially when it does not align with one's theology.
 
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Hammster

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Which has been the WHOLE point. Trying to persuade those for whom Christ didn't die is totally DISHONEST and a LIE.

It seems that you don't actually understand what "persuade" means. It means that Paul WANTED all of them to believe.

If RT was correct about Christ not dying for everyone, Paul would have well known that many could not be persuaded. Yet, that's not what Scripture presents.

And why would Paul waste his time trying to persuade anyone for whom Christ didn't die?

He would have known that all he needed to do was hum a few bars of "Just As I Am" and the "elect" would all march forward. ^_^

Seriously, consider Thayer's:
peithō

1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto, i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

This word will clearly not work on those for whom Christ didn't die. Yet that is exactly what Paul did.

Sometimes the truth hurts, huh. Especially when it does not align with one's theology.

Paul wanted all of them to believe. He didn't know who the elect were. So he tried to persuade them. I don't know why you think this is a problem for Calvinism, outside of having a straw man view.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Paul wanted all of them to believe. He didn't know who the elect were.
OK, let's try to unpack this. If his view of the scope of Christ's death was your view, his desire would be anti-God, since he would have known that Christ didn't die for everyone, so therefore, it would be impossible for everyone to believe. So your statement here is totally conflicted. Wanting all of them, which would have to include the so-called non-elect, goes against God's plan.

Not knowing who the elect are is irrelevant to the issue. Totally irrelevant.

If he wanted all of them to believe, then he clearly KNEW that Christ had died for all of them. No other way around it.

So he tried to persuade them. I don't know why you think this is a problem for Calvinism, outside of having a straw man view.
Ha. No straw man. Trying to persuade those for whom Christ didn't die would be stupid and unbiblical, and he would have known it and made that clear.

Hiding behind a charge of "straw man" is just a weak defense for a defenseless view.

Paul knew that Christ died for everyone, and he wanted everyone to believe. It's as simple as that. And this statement cannot be refuted from Scripture.

Rejected by Calvinism, yes, but refuted? Not possible.
 
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Hammster

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OK, let's try to unpack this. If his view of the scope of Christ's death was your view, his desire would be anti-God, since he would have known that Christ didn't die for everyone, so therefore, it would be impossible for everyone to believe. So your statement here is totally conflicted. Wanting all of them, which would have to include the so-called non-elect, goes against God's plan.

Not knowing who the elect are is irrelevant to the issue. Totally irrelevant.

If he wanted all of them to believe, then he clearly KNEW that Christ had died for all of them. No other way around it.


Ha. No straw man. Trying to persuade those for whom Christ didn't die would be stupid and unbiblical, and he would have known it and made that clear.

Hiding behind a charge of "straw man" is just a weak defense for a defenseless view.

Paul knew that Christ died for everyone, and he wanted everyone to believe. It's as simple as that. And this statement cannot be refuted from Scripture.

Rejected by Calvinism, yes, but refuted? Not possible.

How would he know that everyone in a group wasn't elect? Since he didn't know who the elect were, why should he limit his preaching?
 
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FreeGrace2

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How would he know that everyone in a group wasn't elect? Since he didn't know who the elect were, why should he limit his preaching?
This response is one of the reasons that Calvinism cannot be taken seriously.

Seriously. And it completely ignored the point made. If Paul believed that Christ hadn't died for EVERYONE there is no reason whatsoever for any justification for his wanting EVERYONE to believe.

It continues to amaze me that the reformed just won't get it.

The ONLY reason he wanted EVERYONE to believe was because Christ died for EVERYONE. Very straightforward.

And RT is unable to refute this. Disagreement or rejection does not equal refutation.
 
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Hammster

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This response is one of the reasons that Calvinism cannot be taken seriously.

Seriously. And it completely ignored the point made. If Paul believed that Christ hadn't died for EVERYONE there is no reason whatsoever for any justification for his wanting EVERYONE to believe.

It continues to amaze me that the reformed just won't get it.

The ONLY reason he wanted EVERYONE to believe was because Christ died for EVERYONE. Very straightforward.

And RT is unable to refute this. Disagreement or rejection does not equal refutation.

I think your inability or unwillingness to deal with what's being said is why you cannot be taken seriously (I'd say free grace theology, but since you're the only one who promoted what you promote, it's all one in the same). It's like you're afraid that if you concede one point, you concede them all.

Paul believes that Christ didn't die for everyone. Yet he does not know who those are. He has a special love for his kinsmen. He would like to see them all saved. So he tries to persuade them to believe.

There's nothing inconsistent with that.
 
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bling

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I think your inability or unwillingness to deal with what's being said is why you cannot be taken seriously (I'd say free grace theology, but since you're the only one who promoted what you promote, it's all one in the same). It's like you're afraid that if you concede one point, you concede them all.

Paul believes that Christ didn't die for everyone. Yet he does not know who those are. He has a special love for his kinsmen. He would like to see them all saved. So he tries to persuade them to believe.

There's nothing inconsistent with that.
If Paul is suggesting, in his persuading, that it is up to the individual to believe and accept, when it is really up to God for the individual to believe than Paul is lying to those he is trying to persuade?

It can be said since we have all been commanded that: “we are to preach the gospel to everyone”, but is part of the good news: “It is up to your free will choice to accept God’s forgiveness”? If that is not part of the good news can Paul or anyone else preach it?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
This response is one of the reasons that Calvinism cannot be taken seriously.

Seriously. And it completely ignored the point made. If Paul believed that Christ hadn't died for EVERYONE there is no reason whatsoever for any justification for his wanting EVERYONE to believe.

It continues to amaze me that the reformed just won't get it.

The ONLY reason he wanted EVERYONE to believe was because Christ died for EVERYONE. Very straightforward.

And RT is unable to refute this. Disagreement or rejection does not equal refutation.

I think your inability or unwillingness to deal with what's being said is why you cannot be taken seriously (I'd say free grace theology, but since you're the only one who promoted what you promote, it's all one in the same). It's like you're afraid that if you concede one point, you concede them all.
In addition to the fact that your response to what I said isn't related to what I said, you again dodged my challenge. The response refuted nothing, as expected.

Paul believes that Christ didn't die for everyone.
How come Calvinism cannot prove this from Scripture?

Yet he does not know who those are.
Irrelevant. We are to preach the gospel to everyone. Therefore, the gospel is for everyone. That cannot be denied.

He has a special love for his kinsmen. He would like to see them all saved. So he tries to persuade them to believe.
That is senseless, if he really believed that Christ didn't die for everyone. He would know better than to express what isn't God's will.

There's nothing inconsistent with that.
On the contrary, all of your post was inconsistent with facts.
 
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janxharris

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Paul believes that Christ didn't die for everyone.

That you preach the Gospel to the unsaved whilst holding this view is baffling.

Yet he does not know who those are. He has a special love for his kinsmen. He would like to see them all saved. So he tries to persuade them to believe.

There's nothing inconsistent with that.

Paul could never had quoted Deuteronomy 30:12-14 if he knew that Christ did not die for everyone. Your view leaves some without salvation. Paul's view actually has it that one need not 'ascend into heaven...or descend into the deep.' Deuteronomy 30:11 says that, '...it's not too difficult are beyond your reach...'

Your view is unscriptural and contradict's Paul's.
 
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Hammster

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I said this:
This response is one of the reasons that Calvinism cannot be taken seriously.

Seriously. And it completely ignored the point made. If Paul believed that Christ hadn't died for EVERYONE there is no reason whatsoever for any justification for his wanting EVERYONE to believe.

It continues to amaze me that the reformed just won't get it.

The ONLY reason he wanted EVERYONE to believe was because Christ died for EVERYONE. Very straightforward.

And RT is unable to refute this. Disagreement or rejection does not equal refutation.


In addition to the fact that your response to what I said isn't related to what I said, you again dodged my challenge. The response refuted nothing, as expected.


How come Calvinism cannot prove this from Scripture?


Irrelevant. We are to preach the gospel to everyone. Therefore, the gospel is for everyone. That cannot be denied.


That is senseless, if he really believed that Christ didn't die for everyone. He would know better than to express what isn't God's will.


On the contrary, all of your post was inconsistent with facts.

Not at all. It would only be inconsistent if Paul was mad at God if some men were not saved. There's no indication that this is the fact.
 
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Hammster

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That you preach the Gospel to the unsaved whilst holding this view is baffling.



Paul could never had quoted Deuteronomy 30:12-14 if he knew that Christ did not die for everyone. Your view leaves some without salvation. Paul's view actually has it that one need not 'ascend into heaven...or descend into the deep.' Deuteronomy 30:11 says that, '...it's not too difficult are beyond your reach...'

Your view is unscriptural and contradict's Paul's.

Paul quoted Deuteronomy to believers.
 
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