Acts 18:4

[janxharris]

No! Jesus conferred on the apostles the SAME AUTHORITY He had Himself. Jesus had the authority to know who would believe. Likewise, the apostles had the same authority to know who would believe. Paul said that he would go to the Gentiles for "they will listen." Paul knew that they would listen.

Peter knew the heart of Simon the sorcerer. Lydia confessed that the apostles had the authority to judge whether or not she was a true believer.

It makes absolutely no sense at all that the apostles would preach to those whom they knew would not believe. And it makes no sense that Christ would die for them.

The only way your theology can work is if you are an Open Theist who denies the foreknowledge of God.

Before I respond, please address this first:

Acts 17:2-5
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Before I respond, please address this first:

Acts 17:2-5
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Already explained. Paul was speaking to the Jews as an apologist, not as an evangelist. He was proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ and as a consequence some of them in the audience believed.

Paul knew that the Gentiles would listen. He explicitly said, "They will listen." Would he go to a crowd which he knew would not listen? Would you go to people whom the Lord told you would not listen? Please answer the question. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to remit the sins of whomsoever they willed. How could they do this without knowing whose sins they would remit?

It is your turn to explain some things. And are you even preaching the gospel yourself. Or do you live only to debunk Calvinism?

 

[janxharris]

Already explained. Paul was speaking to the Jews as an apologist, not as an evangelist. He was proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ and as a consequence some of them in the audience believed.

The scripture in question explicitly says that Paul is preaching. You are in error.

Acts 17:3-5
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.​

Paul knew that the Gentiles would listen. He explicitly said, "They will listen." Would he go to a crowd which he knew would not listen? Would you go to people whom the Lord told you would not listen?

Paul continue to preach the gospel to whomever, including Jews.
What are you suggesting - that Paul, confronted with a crowd did not preach because he knew that a handful would not believe?

Please answer the question. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to remit the sins of whomsoever they willed. How could they do this without knowing whose sins they would remit?

I think you would need to establish where Paul or the apostles ever said they knew who would and would not believe and preached accordingly. Paul preached 'Christ crucified,' and his statement remained unqualified.

That they had the authority to remit sins does not mean they there omniscient. Jesus continued to enjoin belief even in those whom he described as not his sheep.

Paul's ambition was not to preach to those that would believe - it was to preach where Christ was not know.

It is your turn to explain some things. And are you even preaching the gospel yourself. Or do you live only to debunk Calvinism?

I do some.

As previously stated, I consider that Calvinism damages the Gospel itself and is grist for the atheists mill. I think what you promote actually turns people away from Christ.

 

[janxharris]

Already explained. Paul was speaking to the Jews as an apologist, not as an evangelist. He was proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ and as a consequence some of them in the audience believed.

It is your theology that is forcing you to speculate so wildly and uncomfortably. Paul said without equivocation:

Romans 15:20
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

Please show us where Paul or any of the Apostles declared they would only preach to those who would believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Please show us where Paul or any of the Apostles declared they would only preach to those who would believe.

I wait with bated breath.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The scripture in question explicitly says that Paul is preaching. You are in error.

That's it? Paul had passed judgment upon the Jewish leadership saying, "You are unworthy of eternal life. We turn to the Gentiles." So you believe that Paul was calling people to salvation whom he had just judged as unworthy? Okaay!

Paul continue to preach the gospel to whomever, including Jews.

Unbelievable! See my comments above.

I think you would need to establish where Paul or the apostles ever said they knew who would and would not believe and preached accordingly. Paul preached 'Christ crucified,' and his statement remained unqualified.

Paul said that the Gentiles would listen (Acts 28:28).

That they had the authority to remit sins does not mean they there omniscient.

Jesus also was not omniscient. Yet He knew who would not believe. Peter knew the heart of Simon the sorcerer. Lydia confessed that the apostles had the authority to judge if she was a true believer (Acts 16:15). Paul said that the Gentiles would listen.

Jesus continued to enjoin belief even in those whom he described as not his sheep.

This is totally false (John 2:23-25)

I do some.

As previously stated, I consider that Calvinism damages the Gospel itself and is grist for the atheists mill.

Yet Evangelism Explosion was founded by two Calvinists. Arminians believe that Christ died for those whom God knows will not believe. Arminians believe that God offers salvation to those He knows will not believe. Therefore, in Arminianism the preaching ot the gospel to them is disingenuous because it serves only to increase their punishment and nothing else.

Your God disingenuously offers salvation to those He knows will not believe. And if the apostles also knew who would not believe, then their "offer" was also disingenuous. As I said before your theology cannot work unless you become an Open Theist.

 

[janxharris]

That's it? Paul had passed judgment upon the Jewish leadership saying, "You are unworthy of eternal life. We turn to the Gentiles." So you believe that Paul was calling people to salvation whom he had just judged as unworthy? Okaay!

In Pisidian Antioch Paul told those Jews that rejected his message that they were unworthy. To suggest that Paul was talking about all Jews is a wild extrapolation. It should also be noted that these Jews that rejected the gospel here represent another example of Paul preaching to those that would not believe.

That you do not accept that Paul preached the gospel to the Jews in Thessalonica is astonishing. Paul is explicit and unequivocal:

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Unbelievable! See my comments above.

You are a lone voice Boxer.

Paul said that the Gentiles would listen (Acts 28:28).

Some of those Jews listened as well.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Jesus also was not omniscient. Yet He knew who would not believe. Peter knew the heart of Simon the sorcerer. Lydia confessed that the apostles had the authority to judge if she was a true believer (Acts 16:15). Paul said that the Gentiles would listen.

You have been shown several occasions when the Jews did not believe.
Are you suggesting that Paul picked out gentiles from a crowd before he preached the gospel?

This is totally false (John 2:23-25)

?

John 10: 37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Yet Evangelism Explosion was founded by two Calvinists. Arminians believe that Christ died for those whom God knows will not believe. Arminians believe that God offers salvation to those He knows will not believe. Therefore, in Arminianism the preaching ot the gospel to them is disingenuous because it serves only to increase their punishment and nothing else.

Demonstrating to those that won't believe that they were offered wards off any possibility that they could claim otherwise.

Your God disingenuously offers salvation to those He knows will not believe. And if the apostles also knew who would not believe, then their "offer" was also disingenuous. As I said before your theology cannot work unless you become an Open Theist.

See above. You have not shown that the apostles had such knowledge.

 

[janxharris]

Already explained. Paul was speaking to the Jews as an apologist, not as an evangelist. He was proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ and as a consequence some of them in the audience believed.

That Paul preached to the Jews of Thessalonica is proven by following the personal pronouns.

1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.​

If the 'you' of v.3 are not the Jews, then who are the 'them' of v.4? They aren't Greeks since Paul deals with such folk separately.

Whom do you say they are?

 

[janxharris]

Calvinism has been shown to be untenable regarding Romans 10 - for it would not be right for Paul to tell one of those ones whom Calvinists say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

Paul preached v.9 because he knew that not one person was not provided for - he knew that Christ died and rose for everyone.

Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Paul (the Calvinist) is misleading some of those he preaches to (we may safely assume some non-elect persons were present for not all believed him) for he tells them of Christ 'risen again from the dead'. A Christ that did not die for you certainly did not rise for you either.

And yet they are to believe in this for their salvation.

 

[janxharris]

That's it? Paul had passed judgment upon the Jewish leadership saying, "You are unworthy of eternal life. We turn to the Gentiles." So you believe that Paul was calling people to salvation whom he had just judged as unworthy? Okaay!

If Paul's statement in Acts 13 constituted a resolve not to preach further to Jews (as you assert), why does Paul say this in Acts 18:6
But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”?

Paul is merely talking about the Jews and Gentiles local to the area. Your assertion that Paul was not preaching to the Jews of Thessalonica because he had previously said that he was turning to the Gentiles (in Acts 13) does not hold.

 

[janxharris]

That's it? Paul had passed judgment upon the Jewish leadership saying, "You are unworthy of eternal life. We turn to the Gentiles." So you believe that Paul was calling people to salvation whom he had just judged as unworthy? Okaay!

Not all the Gentiles believed:

Acts 17:12, 34
As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

How many believed Boxer - some or all?

 

[janxharris]

Calvinism has been shown to be untenable regarding Romans 10 - for it would not be right for Paul to tell one of those ones whom Calvinists say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

 

[OzSpen]

Calvinism has been shown to be untenable regarding Romans 10 - for it would not be right for Paul to tell one of those ones whom Calvinists say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

 

[nobdysfool]

Feel better now?

 

[OzSpen]

Feel better now?

 

[AndOne]

Calvinism has been shown to be untenable regarding Romans 10 - for it would not be right for Paul to tell one of those ones whom Calvinists say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

Hey guess what? I still disagree - and I'm still Calvinist!

 

[rick357]

Calvinism has been shown to be untenable regarding Romans 10 - for it would not be right for Paul to tell one of those ones whom Calvinists say salvation was never intended for to believe in the resurrection (which was not intended for them) for their salvation.

How would Paul determine the differance between one or the other. Did stephens witness have no effect on Paul. The truth is we preach to all regardless of our views on will and grace for none of us give councel to God

 

[janxharris]

How would Paul determine the differance between one or the other. Did stephens witness have no effect on Paul. The truth is we preach to all regardless of our views on will and grace for none of us give councel to God

So Paul plays fast and loose with some of his audience and you think that's okay?

 

[janxharris]

Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices

Telling someone to believe in Christ's resurrection (for their salvation) when that resurrection was not for their salvation would be a lie.

 

[OzSpen]

How would Paul determine the differance between one or the other. Did stephens witness have no effect on Paul. The truth is we preach to all regardless of our views on will and grace for none of us give councel to God

In my view this is an issue of integrity. How can people preach the gospel to all who are hearing the proclamation and not believe that that gospel is available to all who hear that message?

But then, after they come to Christ they learn that this Gospel was only meant for not ALL who heard, but only a LIMITED number whom God had selected.