Absolutely Free or Not?

[Outrider]

So God can judge one to be obedient and then condemn that person? Heb 5:9?

Your cart is before your horse. Judgment takes place in the end, not in the beginning. All disobedience and obedience has been done. Those he judges according to their thoughts, words and deeds will enter life everlasting and will not be condemned forever or will be assigned to his eternal wrath where there is no hope forever.

Before I said God has all sovereignty, but his sovereignty is limited by His holy nature. His holy nature will not allow God to lie. God has promised salvation to the obedient and condemnation to the disobedient. These are promises God cannot break, if He does, He lies. When God acts or makes a choice, His act or choice has to fall within the boundaries of His holy nature. So when it comes judgment day, the obedient will HAVE to be saved and the disobedient condemned, or else God lies.

No. Come judgment day, the obedient will have been saved. That is why they were obedient. Your view completely dismisses all of the Scripture that deals with union with Christ being the basis of the righteousness of the believer. Obedience, and all fruit of repentence is the outworking of the grace of Christ. Come judgment day, God will see in his people the outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives because they have been redeemed. Then, he will judge them according to the obedience that is from Christ.

God has made it known in the bible, He would not leave us in the dark about salvation. How do you know that faith saves? From the bible? a guess?

What God has made known in the Bible we may know, indeed. But I fail to find any passage of Scripture that tells why one particular person goes to hell while another goes to heaven. There is nothing I see in Scripture about there being two species of human beings, one absolutely depraved while the other still has some facility for choosing God. In trying to escape descriminatio, it seems to me that you have created one in which the Fall is selective about who will be saved and who will not. Why are some able to be obedient and others are not? Why are some able to be willing and others are not? Is there something uneven about the condition of human guilt and if so, what does the Bible reveal about that?

 

[jmacvols]

Your cart is before your horse. Judgment takes place in the end, not in the beginning. All disobedience and obedience has been done. Those he judges according to their thoughts, words and deeds will enter life everlasting and will not be condemned forever or will be assigned to his eternal wrath where there is no hope forever.

That's what I meant, in the end will God judge one to be obedient and then condemn him? When one dies his works follow him, whether they be obedient or disobedient works, and he will be judge according to those works.
You say "Those he judges according to thier thoughts, words, deeds will enter life everlasting..." Why will they enter life everlasting?

No. Come judgment day, the obedient will have been saved. That is why they were obedient. Your view completely dismisses all of the Scripture that deals with union with Christ being the basis of the righteousness of the believer. Obedience, and all fruit of repentence is the outworking of the grace of Christ. Come judgment day, God will see in his people the outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives because they have been redeemed. Then, he will judge them according to the obedience that is from Christ.

First, no one has salvation in this life, only hope and promise of eternal life, like Paul who had 'hope of eternal life', Titus 1:2. Second, ones obedience comes from the heart, not Christ, Rom 6:17.

What God has made known in the Bible we may know, indeed. But I fail to find any passage of Scripture that tells why one particular person goes to hell while another goes to heaven.

Obedience, Heb 5:9.

There is nothing I see in Scripture about there being two species of human beings, one absolutely depraved while the other still has some facility for choosing God. In trying to escape descriminatio, it seems to me that you have created one in which the Fall is selective about who will be saved and who will not.

No one is born totally depraved.

Why are some able to be obedient and others are not? Why are some able to be willing and others are not? Is there something uneven about the condition of human guilt and if so, what does the Bible reveal about that?

Free-will.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Acts 1:24--All the apostles were chosen, throwing the lots allowed them to know who was already chosen. There was no randomness as to whom would be the next apostle, as there is no random choice by God as to whom will be saved or lost. So yes God would "control the coin", because He has a reason for His choices about salvation. (its obedience)

Paul was a chosen apostle of God and rest assured he did not earn that choice from his obedience. It was God's sovereign choice. God took Paul from being a hater of Christians and the message of the cross to one of its greatest proponents. God did it. God is the hero. Not Paul.

 

[JustinWindsor]

... No one is born totally depraved. ..Free-will...

There has been Scripture shared in this thread which proves absolute depravity of mankind and there has been Scripture shared in this thread which absolutely proves God's sovereign election.

What on earth are you going to do with those Scriptures. Just ignore them for the rest of your life?

There is a huge problem with "free-will" philosophy which I just can't get past. Ultimately everyone who tries to explain it to me;
1. Can't satisfy me with regard to the Scriptures which show God's Sovereign Election, and
2. Rest their case of "prevenient grace", which they have been unable to demonstrate to me in Scripture.

A theology bankrupt of Scripture, or that leaves other Scripture unresolved, is in error, and is therefore the philosophy of man.

If the "free-will" supporters would care to demonstrate prevenient grace as a genuine Apostolic principle, and give a sensible and God inspired interpretation of the Scriptures explaining away God's election, then I will be happy to read it.

Oh, and by the way, foreknowledge does not mean God foreknowing what we would choose from our free will. That is a horribly wrong concept and ignores the Apostle's explanation in Romans 9 and many other Scriptures which have been shared on this thread.

 

[holdon]

The Bible speaks to where we gain assurance of salvation.

But since the assurance of salvation rests on whether God chose you, you'd better tell us from Scripture how one can know that God chose him or not.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Isaiah's 61:1 prophecy of what the Messiah will do;

1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Why do we have to be born again from above?
Paul answers in his letter to Ephesus (Eph 2);

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

God did it, God did it all, because we couldn't, we were totally depraved;

6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Can we be sure we didn't misread the above?
Sure, he tells the church families in the Roman provinces the same thing, Romans 3;

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

The apostle John seems to think that God did it, because we were unable,
John 1;

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Perhaps most telling, Jesus seemed to think that way too, John 8;

43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Jesus again in John chapter 10;

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:37-40;

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

It appears to me that the prophet Isaiah, the Apostles, and the Christ all saw mankind as totally depraved and in need of being born again from above.

John 3;
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again...
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

[jmacvols]

Paul was a chosen apostle of God

Yes.

and rest assured he did not earn that choice from his obedience.

How do you know this?

It was God's sovereign choice. God took Paul from being a hater of Christians and the message of the cross to one of its greatest proponents. God did it. God is the hero. Not Paul.

Are you saying the Lord did not know if Saul would be obedient to Him? The Lord just took a chance in choosing Saul? The Lord thought maybe Saul will obey me, hopefully if I make him an apostle, he'll stop killing my disciples? Do you think God would knowingly choose someone that would disobey Him?
The Lord knew Saul would be obedient to Him, that is why He choose Saul. The Lord already knew and told Ananias that Saul would bear the Lord's name before the Gentiles, before kings and before the children of Israel.

 

[jmacvols]

There has been Scripture shared in this thread which proves absolute depravity of mankind and there has been Scripture shared in this thread which absolutely proves God's sovereign election.

What on earth are you going to do with those Scriptures. Just ignore them for the rest of your life?

There have been scriptures that have been brought forth that someone 'thought' total depravity was in the verses or someone added or assumed totally depravity was in the verses.

There is a huge problem with "free-will" philosophy which I just can't get past. Ultimately everyone who tries to explain it to me;
1. Can't satisfy me with regard to the Scriptures which show God's Sovereign Election, and
2. Rest their case of "prevenient grace", which they have been unable to demonstrate to me in Scripture.

A theology bankrupt of Scripture, or that leaves other Scripture unresolved, is in error, and is therefore the philosophy of man.

If the "free-will" supporters would care to demonstrate prevenient grace as a genuine Apostolic principle, and give a sensible and God inspired interpretation of the Scriptures explaining away God's election, then I will be happy to read it.

God's grace has been extended to all men, then it would make sense that all men will be saved. But most will be lost. Why? is God's grace not strong enough?

Oh, and by the way, foreknowledge does not mean God foreknowing what we would choose from our free will. That is a horribly wrong concept and ignores the Apostle's explanation in Romans 9 and many other Scriptures which have been shared on this thread.

What in Rom 9 prevents God from using his foreknowledge about Jacob and Esau?

 

[nobdysfool]

You can't have it both ways. You say if one is 'elect' he is saved and cannot be lost. This would be salvation. This is not UNTO salvation but this is guaranteed salvation, if the 'elect' is saved and cannot be lost.

Apparently the concept flies right over your head. Election is NOT salvation. Election is UNTO salvation, the same as voting for President does not make the man President. Swearing the Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution makes him President. He is not actually President until that takes place. So it is with God's Election. The person is not actually a Christian until they have believed on Christ. the election of God is His intent to bring them to Christ, and God never fails to do what he chooses.

Now you say forced obedience is not involved. In post #73 you say "IF God cannot ensure that His elect do, in fact, come to salvation (because He is the one who brings them there), then God is not Omnipotent. Certainly you don't believe that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses?" In post # 69 you say "At the appointed time by God (yes, He excercises absolute control over all the affairs of men) the Elect are brought to a saving knowledge of Christ, via regeneration...." then you say "not by force of coercion, but by free choice of the newly born, newly freed from sin...."

Do you not think that God can, and does, direct the affairs of men in such a way that they freely choose to do what He has foreordained that they do?

On one hand you question God's omnipotence if God cannot ensure His 'elect' comes to salvation, and that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses, that God exercises absolute control over men. This then is God ensuring--forcing--the elect to obey, for if the elect do not obey, that means God has failed to bring to pass what He chooses, that He does not have absolute control over men.

You have this crazy notion of libertarian free will. It is unbiblical, it is a doctrine of demons. I suggest you read Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" and get an education about man's will and abilities. You are sadly mistaken.

Then you say not by force, but free choice. If the 'elect' have free choice, then the 'elect' may very well choose not to obey. And if the 'elect' chooses not to obey then God steps in and ensures ie forces them to obey? Also, if the 'elect' has free choice, then Hitler and Stalin can be part of the 'elect' and use their free choice not to obey God.

Libertarian free will is a lie, because man ALWAYS chooses according to his nature, and to his strongest desire at the moment of choosing. Explain to me how a man whom the bible says is in bondage to sin, dead in trespasses and sins, is free. Explain to me how a man can choose contrary to his nature, which is that of a sinner. Explain to me how a sinner, while remaining a sinner, can please God or perform any truly righteous act.

You analogy to try and wiggle out of the situation you've created fails.

(1)If one can freely reject the cure, then he can freely reject Gods omnipotence to 'ensure' his obedience and hence be a "saved disobedient elected one".
(2)You also say one can refuse the cure and die, but you have said the 'elect' cannot be lost (die), hence if the 'elect' reject the cure (God's 'ensuring' their obedience), then they will still live (be saved).

There's your libertarian free will falsehood again! If one of the elect were to refuse or resist God's ensuring of his salvation (a stark impossibility), he would still be lost, because ELECTION IS NOT SALVATION! What you are arguing for is the supposed ability of man to ultimately resist God's Will for him. If you really think that man can thwart God's Will for him, then you believe that man is mightier than God.

I never said that righteousness is by my own works. I have said over and over and over obedient to the works God gave man to do--believe, repent, confess, baptism. When one 'believes' he is doing a obedient work God gave him to do, not a work of his own. You misunderstand the difference between obedient works and meritorious works.

Splitting hairs to try to get out of the corner you put yourself in? if righteousness is not by your own works, then it must be by God's work. You cannot make yourself righteous, no matter how hard you try. But if you claim that obedience makes you righteous, whose obedience are we taling about? If it is yours, then you believe you are justified by your works, i.e. obedience. It is you doing the works, so it is your works. However, if it is not your obedience that justifies you, the only other One whose works can justify is Christ. And that's just what the bible says.

Nice deflection attempt, but from the tone of your above quote, they seem to hit a soft spot. No verses to back up your ideas?

Tons of them, but you wouldn't accept them anyway. You know it all already, to hear you say it. Your hatred of Calvinism, and Calvinists, rings through loud and clear.

Not my opinion, but God wil judge all men with the same basis---obedience.

As was pointed out to you before, salvation is by FAITH, Judgment deals with obedience. You don't get saved by obedience. Obedience is the response and result of salvation, NEVER the cause of it.

The proof is in the scriptures, no where does the bible say God elected certain individuals to be saved and all else will be lost. No where does the bible say after the church began in Acts 2 that salvation is by 'faith alone". No where does the bible say man is totally depraved that he can do nothing about his own salvation. More?

You are so totally wrong on this that I wonder if you're reading a real bible, or one that has had all the offensive (to you) verses cut out. You need to learn a lot, because you're making a fool of yourself here. This isn't about anything but your rabid, foaming, teeming hatred of Calvinism, and Calvinists. Hatred is not from God. You need to discern what manner of spirit you are speaking from.

 

[holdon]

God's enabling grace:
Romans 15:13 (ESV)
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. Romans 5:2-6 (ESV)
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [3] More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [4] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [5] and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
[6] For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Where does it say anything about "enabling to believe?

The imputation of Christ's righteousness: Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?

You have not demonstrated anything...

 

[JustinWindsor]

There have been scriptures that have been brought forth that someone 'thought' total depravity was in the verses or someone added or assumed totally depravity was in the verses.

God's grace has been extended to all men, then it would make sense that all men will be saved. But most will be lost. Why? is God's grace not strong enough?

What in Rom 9 prevents God from using his foreknowledge about Jacob and Esau?

God's grace has absolutely not been extended to all men.
Paul was obedient because of God working in him. Paul was changed at the revelation of Jesus Christ at the Damascus road. That was the moment he was born again from above. Paul, like the other apostles, was chosen, however, not because he would be obedient, he was chosen and enabled by God unto obedience. Otherwise it would be us choosing God, which is unbiblical. God chooses His children.

until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. (Acts 1:2)

not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. (Acts 10:41)

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— Romans 1:1

Paul did not choose himself, nor did he call himself to apostleship, nor did he equip himself with the Holy Spirit. He was born again, from above.

God's foreknowledge, in context of the nature and character of an almighty and sovereign Lord God as revealed in the OT and NT, means He knew those He chose. It means He knew His chosen intimately as His children in eternity past, at the foundations of the world. Any other meaning given to 'foreknowledge' is not consistent with the God of Scripture.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to prove 'prevenient grace' to me Scripturally rather than philosophically.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Where does it say anything about "enabling to believe?Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?

You have not demonstrated anything...

These were answered Scripturally in post #96 of this thread.

 

[nobdysfool]

Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?

I hope for your sake that this was a rhetorical question, because if it's not, you are questioning one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith. Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to Believers is a core doctrine of the Church. If you deny that, you can rightly be charged with heresy.

Please clear this up for us.

 

[holdon]

I hope for your sake that this was a rhetorical question, because if it's not, you are questioning one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith. Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to Believers is a core doctrine of the Church. If you deny that, you can rightly be charged with heresy.

Please clear this up for us.

I am questioning it. Please answer the question.

 

[JustinWindsor]

I am questioning it. Please answer the question.

...shows just some of the Scriptural basis for the imputation of Christ's righteousness upon believers. If you don't believe this basic Christian Doctrine, what on earth are you doing wasting our time in a Christian forum? If you aren't clothed in the righteousness of Christ, what is the basis of your salvation? Your own righteousness?

 

[holdon]

...shows just some of the Scriptural basis for the imputation of Christ's righteousness upon believers. If you don't believe this basic Christian Doctrine, what on earth are you doing wasting our time in a Christian forum? If you aren't clothed in the righteousness of Christ, what is the basis of your salvation? Your own righteousness?

Why don't you answer the question? Maybe you can't find a verse that says that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? I can't either.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Here it is again, for your convenience;

Christ's righteousness credited;

Romans 4:3-5,13 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Phil 3:8,9 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "A[size=-2]ND[/size] A[size=-2]BRAHAM BELIEVED[/size] G[size=-2]OD[/size], [size=-2]AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS[/size]," and he was called the friend of God.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Hope this helps.

 

[holdon]

Here it is again, for your convenience;

And where does it say that "Christ's righteousness is imputed to us"??? I couldn't find it...

Certainly for it to be "one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith", we should have clear evidence in Scripture, don't you think?

 

[mlqurgw]

Here it is again, for your convenience;

Perhaps you should have added;

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

He is called Jehovah- tsidkenu, the Lord our righteousnes

 

[nobdysfool]

Why don't you answer the question? Maybe you can't find a verse that says that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? I can't either.

There is no verse that says God is Triune, but it is also a basic, bedrock Christian Doctrine. Or don't you believe that, either?