Absolutely Free or Not?

[holdon]

There is no verse that says God is Triune, but it is also a basic, bedrock Christian Doctrine. Or don't you believe that, either?

I guess you can't prove it either..... Or just answer the question.

 

[Outrider]

And where does it say that "Christ's righteousness is imputed to us"??? I couldn't find it...

Certainly for it to be "one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith", we should have clear evidence in Scripture, don't you think?

We do. Strange that you could not see it in clear black and white as it was cut and pasted to you by JustinWindsor. Who's righteousness do you think is counted to us when we believe? Ours? If so, we are doomed. I really hope you do see Scripture that teaches that we have no righteousness. If you can see that, you will know that the imputed righteousness is Christ's, not yours, and you will rejoice because that is the only way you will stand in God's presence at judgment.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I hope for your sake that this was a rhetorical question, because if it's not, you are questioning one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith. Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to Believers is a core doctrine of the Church. If you deny that, you can rightly be charged with heresy.

Please clear this up for us.

Not only can he be rightly charged with heresy, but a denial of the imputed righteousness of Christ is to rely on one's own righteousness to please God, and makes one an unbeliever.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You have a fatal flaw in your theology. If god's choice is conditioned on obedience, then for Him to choose the obedient is to be a respecter of persons.

And that is the mild part. God choosing based on obedience means that salvation is a reward for one's own works and is a debt God owes the one who is obedient salvation, which contradicts everything in the first 11 chapters of Romans.

Plain and simple salvation rewarded for obedience is a false gospel from the pit of hell.

 

[jmacvols]

Isaiah's 61:1 prophecy of what the Messiah will do;
Why do we have to be born again from above?

Man needs to be born again, becasue he is a sinner, not totally depraved as Paul points out on Rom 3.

Paul answers in his letter to Ephesus (Eph 2);

First, the use of 'sinful nature' in Eph 2 is a horrible, biased translation, for man does not have a sinful nature. Second, Paul in Eph 2:5 for example says 'made alive with Christ. Here Paul is referring to when the Ephesians obeyed the command to be baptized. Compare Eph 2:5 with Col 2:12,13. In Rev 2:5 Christ warned the Ephesians to repent or else. There is no indication here that the Ephesians were to depraved to repent or that Christ would repent for them.

Can we be sure we didn't misread the above? Romans 3;

The word 'ALONE' does not appear in Eph 2:8, it is added by those that have a bias against the teachings of the bible.
In Rom 3:9 Paul concludes that all are under sin, he quotes that none are righteous from the OT and in verse 23 he returns to his original conclusion that all have sinned. Paul's conclusion that 'none are righteous' is because all have sinned, not totally depraved. Paul does not remotely in Rom 3 or else where say man is totally depraved. Why would Paul say none are righteous when 2 Peter 2:8 speaks of that righteous man Lot and his righteous soul?

The apostle John seems to think that God did it, because we were unable,
John 1;

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

This cetainly does not teach totally depravity. It says all who recieved Him and believed in his name. This shows man has the ability to receive Jesus and believe in Him.

Perhaps most telling, Jesus seemed to think that way too, John 8;

Again, nothing remotely close to totally depravity here. Jn 8:30 many believed, no depravity here.

Jesus again in John chapter 10;

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Now you are picking out verses where some did not believe Jesus and you declare they are totally depraved because they did not believe. What about those that did believe? Verse 27 Jeus says his sheep hear and follow, a totally depraved person could not do this.

John 12:37-40;

Again, picking out verses where some did not believe Jesus and then declare from that that ALL are totally depraved. If you continue to verse 42 and not stop at verse 40 you will see many chief rulers believed, but would not confess because of the Pharisees. We learn from this: 1) they were not depraved but could believe and 2) 'belief alone' does not save.

It appears to me that the prophet Isaiah, the Apostles, and the Christ all saw mankind as totally depraved and in need of being born again from above.

It appears you have been taught totally depravity and your bias for it makes you see it where it does not appear.

John 3;
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again...
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Why did you not quote the well known verse 16? It says "whosoever believeth" this shows God has extended an invitation to everyman to believe, hence that infers man has the ability to believe that so chooses. Verse 21 if man were depraved he could not 'do truth'. God does not do the works, but they do the works through God. Compare to Phl 2:12,13 they were to work out their own salvation and when one is obedient to God, God is working through them by their obedience; God does not work through the disobedient.

I had pointed out, apparently it was ignored, that Cain and Abel were not depraved. Gen 4:7 God asks Cain if thou doest well shalt not thou be accepted. It is evident that Cain could have done as Abel and pleased God. God warned Cain sin was at the door and God told Cain to rule over sin, but Cain let sin rule over him, unlike Able, who did rule over sin.

 

[holdon]

We do. Strange that you could not see it in clear black and white as it was cut and pasted to you by JustinWindsor. Who's righteousness do you think is counted to us when we believe? Ours? If so, we are doomed. I really hope you do see Scripture that teaches that we have no righteousness. If you can see that, you will know that the imputed righteousness is Christ's, not yours, and you will rejoice because that is the only way you will stand in God's presence at judgment.

Strange that nobody can give a clear Scriptural reference...

 

[mlqurgw]

They sem to be like the Jews that Paul wrote about.



Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

It absolutely is, the order Jesus put them was belief first, followed by baptism, both followed by salvation. Re-arranging that order is perverting Christ's words.

If salvation is predicated on baptism as you state, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross when He said, "This day you will be with Me in Paradise."

Are you a member of the International Church of Christ?



Unless the Spirit first transform the "natural man" into the "spiritual man" as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and "things of God", but indeed finds them to be utter foolishness.

No doubt, there are many, many people on this forum and other religious forums who all believe they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit, the problem is they disagree with each other--vehemently, and if it wasn't so sad it would be funny. Or do you have me believe that the Holy Spirit is spreading this confusion and conflict?

Either the Gospel is not spiritual and one of the "things of God" of 1 Corinthians 2 or you are badly mistaken.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

They sem to be like the Jews that Paul wrote about.



Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

I agree.

Satan has deceived them with Pelagian philosophy.

 

[mlqurgw]

Do you fit this description?
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

 

[mlqurgw]

Have you ever asked yourself why Christ lived a perfect life of righteousness? He brought in an everlasting righteousness( Dan. 9:24) He did not need righteousness but we did. We are made the righteousness of God in Him.


2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[mlqurgw]

Strange that nobody can give a clear Scriptural reference...

I just did.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No one has given the reason, so now I will, and it is........obedience. God basis His choices on obedience. The obedient will be saved, the disobedient will be lost.

You have been given the reason, many times over, "to the Glory of His Grace", but you reject it in favor of heretical, man-made philosophy.

God is not obligated to give you or me all the details.

I am conforming to His will, that is what obedience is about. Calvinism says man is to do nothing, God does it all. Doing nothing = nonconforming.

No you are not conforming to God's Will, you reject the clear Gospel, which is to be at emnity with God.

Please do not misrepresent Calvinism again. Calvinists do not say man is to do nothing. Calvinists agree with Scripture in that man has no part in his own salvation, it is purely and solely the work of God.
After regeneration then the saved does something, not before.

Not according to Scripture. The natural man finds the Gospel to be utter foolisness(1 Corinthians 2).

Not true, dealt with this in my last post to you. Paul told the Ephesians be not unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is. When ye read ye may understand.

No, what you did was present passages that are exhortations to those who have profess Christ already.

1 Corinthians 2;
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Either the Gospel is not spiritual or one of the "things of the Spirit of God" or you are badly mistaken.

The latter is the safe bet.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I just did.

The kind of intellectual dishonesty displayed here by these guys is usually the kind displayed by the cults.

 

[jmacvols]

God's grace has absolutely not been extended to all men.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Who has God's grace not been extended to and why did God withhold it from them?

Paul was obedient because of God working in him. Paul was changed at the revelation of Jesus Christ at the Damascus road. That was the moment he was born again from above. Paul, like the other apostles, was chosen, however, not because he would be obedient, he was chosen and enabled by God unto obedience. Otherwise it would be us choosing God, which is unbiblical. God chooses His children.

If Paul was 'saved' on the Damascus road, then you have him being saved still in his sins. Acts 9:6 he was told to go to the city and there it would told him what he MUST do. After three days Aninaias comes to Saul, Saul receives his sight and is baptized to wash away his sins, Acts 22:16.
If God chooses His children, then why does He not choose all to be his children? According to your ideas, God WANTS most to be eternally lost.

until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.

(Acts 1:2)

not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. (Acts 10:41)

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— Romans 1:1

Paul did not choose himself, nor did he call himself to apostleship, nor did he equip himself with the Holy Spirit. He was born again, from above.

All the apostles were chosen by the Lord, but certain individuals are not chosen to be Christians, one has to choose for himself to be a Christian or not.

God's foreknowledge, in context of the nature and character of an almighty and sovereign Lord God as revealed in the OT and NT, means He knew those He chose. It means He knew His chosen intimately as His children in eternity past, at the foundations of the world. Any other meaning given to 'foreknowledge' is not consistent with the God of Scripture.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to prove 'prevenient grace' to me Scripturally rather than philosophically.

Where does the bible say God chooses particular individuals to be saved? Jn 3:16 'whosoever' is open to any and everyone, not just ones God selects. First, you say "God's foreknowledge...means He knew those that HE chose." That would mean God's foreknowledge knew Jacob and Esau, and that Jacob would be obedient to Him where Esau would not. Secondly, God choosing Jacob over Esau had nothing to with their salvation, God was choosing which one to use to bring His people into the world. God choosing Jacob had no bearing on Esau, Esau could have lived an obedient life to God if he had so chosen to.

I have already shown God's grace has been extended to all men, yet all men will not be saved because most will reject his grace.

 

[mlqurgw]

The kind of intellectual dishonesty displayed here by these guys is usually the kind displayed by the cults.

Heresy is never an intelectual matter. It is refusal to submit to the Word of God.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

The "fair chance" ended when Adam ate the fruit. Now follows justice and mercy based upon the saving work of Christ.

Right on!

The Only Truly Obedient One is Christ.

Even in our best obedience we still fail and fall far short of the mark, while we yet inhabit this body of death, which is prescisely why we cling to Christ and Christ only.

I would suppose these pelagians would condemn Paul in Romans 8 for saying he does the things he does not want to do, and calls himself "chief of sinners".

 

[jmacvols]

Why don't you answer the question? Maybe you can't find a verse that says that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? I can't either.

Me neither. I can find no verse that says Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, but I can find where we are put into Christ where perfect righteousness is found.

 

[mlqurgw]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Who has God's grace not been extended to and why did God withhold it from them?

In the preaching of the Gospel. I would refer you to Matt. 11:25-27

If Paul was 'saved' on the Damascus road, then you have him being saved still in his sins.

Who isn't saved in their sins? Did you get better before you belived or after?

Acts 9:6 he was told to go to the city and there it would told him what he MUST do. After three days Aninaias comes to Saul, Saul receives his sight and is baptized to wash away his sins, Acts 22:16.

He was not baptized to was h away his sins but because his sins were washed away.

If God chooses His children, then why does He not choose all to be his children? According to your ideas, God WANTS most to be eternally lost.

He doesn't choose all to be His children because it pleased Him to leave some in their rebellion.

All the apostles were chosen by the Lord, but certain individuals are not chosen to be Christians, one has to choose for himself to be a Christian or not.

Then He isn't my God and my Savior. How often do we read those words? Salvation is of individuals not a community or naton.

Where does the bible say God chooses particular individuals to be saved? Jn 3:16 'whosoever' is open to any and everyone, not just ones God selects. First, you say "God's foreknowledge...means He knew those that HE chose." That would mean God's foreknowledge knew Jacob and Esau, and that Jacob would be obedient to Him where Esau would not. Secondly, God choosing Jacob over Esau had nothing to with their salvation, God was choosing which one to use to bring His people into the world. God choosing Jacob had no bearing on Esau, Esau could have lived an obedient life to God if he had so chosen to.

When He said Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated He didn't make a difference? It had everything to do with salvation. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with foresight but to have a special relationship with someone. Christ knew all about those who came to him and said have we not done many mighty works in thy name. But He says that He never knew them. He never had a special relationship with them.

I have already shown God's grace has been extended to all men, yet all men will not be saved because most will reject his grace.

If God gives grace to all men then all will be saved. Grace comes only in Christ and if all men have Christ then all are saved.

 

[jmacvols]

If salvation is predicated on baptism as you state, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross when He said, "This day you will be with Me in Paradise."

Christ made the promise to the thief while both were alive and under the OT law. The baptism of Acts 2:38 was not yet in effect while the thief was alive, it did not come into effect until a few weeks later after the thief had died.

Are you a member of the International Church of Christ?

No.

Unless the Spirit first transform the "natural man" into the "spiritual man" as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and "things of God", but indeed finds them to be utter foolishness.

Either the Gospel is not spiritual and one of the "things of God" of 1 Corinthians 2 or you are badly mistaken.

Paul plainly told the Ephesians they could understand when they read. You have not explained all the contradictions among those that claim they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit.